weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[snoofer]

Bottom line is TS was in the car with MTR and TLM and should not have been and she died a horrible death in their presence by their doing and their actions and inactions. Then hid the body and costed the parents, LE and taxpayers immensely. Now it is time they pay. JMO

IMO the punishment should be death penalty.

 

[Macright]

Bottom line is TS was in the car with MTR and TLM and should not have been and she died a horrible death in their presence by their doing and their actions and inactions. Then hid the body and costed the parents, LE and taxpayers immensely. Now it is time they pay. JMO

IMO the punishment should be death penalty.

thankfully we don't have the death penalty here in Canada...life in prison would do for me for some of these murderers...:moo:

 

[Flowercb]

I personally don't think the crown is too interested in MR being on the phone during the time he spent with his dates...and I don't think they are interested in any of the lies that he told these women about his type of employment...that info adds nothing to the evidence and would be a waste of taxpayers money and of course court time........I am sure they know that he was a drug user/dealer...the same goes for the number of women that he dated in his lifetime...I think the only reason these women were paraded into court was to show that he had no remorse for TS as he continued on with his love life...:moo:

MTR's lies and other activities show his character and honesty and narcissism. This establishes that he is capable of committing a crime.:moo:

 

[Flossie JMO]

After seeing a dead child and disposing of her body, he immediately moves on to hook up with as many women as possible. That's sexually deviant. He was obsessing over Tori, in my opinion. JMO

thanks for responding and posting your opinion, I wasn't sure what you meant and it's clear now, thanks

 

[Flowercb]

I am going to tell you one thing.

If I was ever in MTR's so called position that his lawyer has put him in and I saw this horrific act upon a child I can tell you one thing I would have fled Woodstock, I would never have even posted anything regarding that child, I would never have thrown out the car seat, I would never have dated anyone, I would never have been asking anyone about what happened to her.

So the question is why did he do all these things? I cant understand it. He was so calm and collected when he was being interviewed its crazy. I would have been shi@ing my pants.

It just doesnt seem to add up to someone who is not guilty. I really wish he would take the stand.

Exactly. His behaviour points to guilt.:moo: This is why all his activity is important. Why else do you think the Crown brought in all these women he dated. It showed his attitude and lack of remorse. His behaviour is not normal for the situation.:moo:

 

[Flossie JMO]

Flossie JMO, I'm sure Russell Williams's friends and wife didn't think he was a sexual deviant, and never gave any indications that he was, and yet he broke into almost 82 homes, rifles through pantie drawers, photographed himself in his victim's panties, broke into two of his victim's homes, tied them up and forced them to perform sexual acts, and photographed those acitivies, then he broke into two more homes, sexually tortured and killed two more women.


Just because because there is no evidence doesn't mean it isn't so. <modsnip>?

I agree we have evidence now on Russell Williams. Totally agree. And because we don't have evidence doesn't mean it isn't so.

However, my point was we do not have that on MR. We might eventually, I just don't know if we will, or if it is so. JMO

 

[Flossie JMO]

MTR's lies and other activities show his character and honesty and narcissism. This establishes that he is capable of committing a crime.:moo:

JMO most adults are capable of committing a crime. I'm not going to speak of children, is off topic.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

the reason we know that RW was is because LE found the evidence when they conducted the searches...I am sure if LE searched the home of MR and found nothing then it stands to reason that he is not a sexual deviant as the likes of RW.....:moo:because nothing of that nature was ever found...

That's true.

 

[Salem]

RBBM

JMO it may well have been for sexual purposes, we don't know yet, and sexual purposes by TLM or MR, or both, is also not known IMO. I am very interested in what the defence will put forward, and if drugs are a part of it. JMO

Actually - I don't have the same doubts you do. I have been reading the tweets and articles, etc. and I feel differently. I think we do know, depending on how we put the pieces of the puzzle together. We also know there is no smoking gun here. Just the results of a painstaking investigation with many pieces of evidence that tend to either prove or disprove the propositions put forth.

For example, I believe that the drop of Tori's blood with the sperm cells in it tends to prove rape (actually even though the defense will try to blow holes in this, I think this is a smoking gun) and I believe that the missing clothing on Tori's body tends to prove rape.

TLM's statement of the "rustling garbage bags" rings more true to me than her statement of "I savagely killed" which just does not sound like the way a person would talk when describing their actions.

So... I am sure the members of the jury are also looking at this information and that the individual members are processing it differently also. It will be through their deliberations that the outcome is determined.

Salem

 

[Heliotrope]

I agree...some lean a little more to the left or the right...some become too personal and attached....:moo:

I imagine it would be a mistake to lean too far either way - one would be just as likely to fall down leaning too far in the opposite direction, abandoning instinct and intuition completely.

Instinct and intuition save a lot of lives - I always tell my son to listen to his 'spider sense'. In this case, my spider sense is tingling. The crown saw fit to detain this creature for nearly 3 years based on an educated consideration of the evidence; I think their spider sense is tingling too.

I don't find there's a witch hunt mentality here, crowds waving tiny virtual torches and pitchforks - I find people reacting normally to an abnormal situation, being disturbed by disturbing stories and feeling repelled by repulsive people. I find it comforting to come here and listen to others have the same reactions as me - I'm a chronic lurker actually, so a big thank you to everyone else for getting it all out there.

Even the famous detective was affected by emotion and had to compose himself on the stand, as I recall... and he's a proven giant-killer, God love him. [Disclosure - I am 'too personal and attached' to Detective Staff Sergeant Smyth.]

 

[Sillybilly]

I respectfully beg to differ, Billy. Maybe hair would have come off easily, but if TLM is to be believed, there should have been DNA from saliva, tears, and nose secretions. Even if Tori didn't cry, I doubt that minute particles of saliva could have escaped being deposited after such a long time.

I believe we've already had a post or two about how difficult it is to completely remove DNA. Also, had the coat been dry cleaned, there would have been evidence of dry cleaning fluid found in the lab exams and nothing was raised in testimony to indicate this.

JMO

How dare you differ AG JK

I suppose we'll never really know the minute detail of her position, but for some reason, i've always felt that Tori would have been lying either on her side or face down on the back seat, in which case saliva, tears and nose secretions would have been on the back seat, but not necessarily on a coat that was covering her.

 

[matou]

The 40 year old who testified two days ago is the one who was said to be in a 'helping position' and her name is under publication ban. She was 37 at the time.

Within four days of the little girl&#8217;s death, Mr. Rafferty was starting a relationship with a 37-year-old woman and two days after that, with another woman, then 28.
The first woman, whose identity is protected by a publication ban, works in what can loosely be described as a helping profession.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...m-witnessing-horrifying-tori-stafford-murder/

 

[~n/t~]

Bottom line is TS was in the car with MTR and TLM and should not have been and she died a horrible death in their presence by their doing and their actions and inactions. Then hid the body and costed the parents, LE and taxpayers immensely. Now it is time they pay. JMO

IMO the punishment should be death penalty.

Tori's Law - almost 62,000 signatures

http://www.petitiononline.com/vict888/petition.html

 

[~n/t~]

A child should be free to walk alone or with friends anywhere at anytime without fear of being kidnapped, raped and murdered. Period.

 

[antiquegirl]

So there are 2 women whose names are covered under a ban???? If the one from friday was not described at all how would we have any knowledge of her age?????

Yes, two different women. Apparently her age was not covered by the ban.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply

Next witness is a 28 year old woman from Woodstock.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply

She met Rafferty through Plenty of Fish. They eventually met for coffee. Near the end of March, 2009.

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply

The next witness is a 28 year old woman who met Michael Rafferty online thru Plenty of Fish at the end of March 2009

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply

The woman texted frequently and they met for coffee on a Friday near end of April, Rafferty claimed he was teaching dance class

HTH

 

[Kamille]

RBBM

Actually - I don't have the same doubts you do. I have been reading the tweets and articles, etc. and I feel differently. I think we do know, depending on how we put the pieces of the puzzle together. We also know there is no smoking gun here. Just the results of a painstaking investigation with many pieces of evidence that tend to either prove or disprove the propositions put forth.

For example, I believe that the drop of Tori's blood with the sperm cells in it tends to prove rape (actually even though the defense will try to blow holes in this, I think this is a smoking gun) and I believe that the missing clothing on Tori's body tends to prove rape.

TLM's statement of the "rustling garbage bags" rings more true to me than her statement of "I savagely killed" which just does not sound like the way a person would talk when describing their actions.

So... I am sure the members of the jury are also looking at this information and that the individual members are processing it differently also. It will be through their deliberations that the outcome is determined.

Salem

Yes Salem, when I look at the picture of where the spot was on the frame of the car, I can see how easily it would have been for a drop of blood to have dripped from Victoria when she was removed from the car to go for her "washroom break". That spot is right on the frame beside the rear passenger seat where the assault was said to have taken place. And when the door was closed, likely more of the blood drop transferred to the rubber moulding were it likely would have adhered better.

And we have been told that blood spot was Victoria's blood containing an unknown sperm cell. How that can be fluffed over is beyond me. :waitasec:

MOO

 

[Tahorn]

<modsnip>

I am sorry, that came out all wrong. I was just wondering if TLM found out that VS was going to be walking alone by a casual comment made someone who knew them both. After all VS really wasn't alone, plenty of others were around, school mates and other parents and TLM did not seemed concerned about anyone else as she was walking away with a child she wasn't suppose to know.

And believe me I agree that a child should feel safe at all times and this should never had happen ... But it did and the only way to stop it from happening again is through knowledge of how this happened in the first place.

 

[flipflop]

Yes, two different women. Apparently her age was not covered by the ban.

HTH

The one from friday is the one that works at Staples.
The one from thursday...her job is under the ban as well.

I did not realize that 2 were under the ban, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Kamille]

That also occurred to me, but that's no reason to keep her name secret. Publication bans have a reason; they're not there to avoid embarrassment.

Actually a witness can put in a written application to the judge for a publication ban on their name. And likely the two women who did had legal advice to do so. Probably for no other reason than not wanting their names dragged into this mess. Perhaps to them it is an embarrasment and they have reason to believe that it would cause them some hardship, in their personal and/or professional lives, to have their names publicized.

How does a victim or witness get a judge to
consider making a publication ban?

The Criminal Code sets out the steps for seeking out a
publication ban:

• The victim or witness must make an application or
request for a publication ban in writing. It is essential
for the victim or witnesses to indicate why he/she
needs this type of protection.

• The victim or witness makes the application to the
judge who will be hearing the case. If a judge has not
yet been assigned to the case, the victim or witness
may make the request to any superior court judge in
the jurisdiction.

• The Crown prosecutor, the accused and any other
person that may be affected by the publication ban
must be notified about the application. The judge will
decide whether the notice should be provided to the
media or others that may be affected. For example,
local newspapers would need to know, because a
publication ban would restrict how they report on the
trial or proceedings.

• The judge may hold a hearing to consider the request
for the publication ban. At the hearing, the victim or
witness has an opportunity to say why the order is
necessary for him or her. The Crown prosecutor, the
accused, the media or other parties who are affected
by the order may also speak.

http://publications.gc.ca/collections/Collection/J2-288-1999E.pdf

 

[Flowercb]

That also occurred to me, but that's no reason to keep her name secret. Publication bans have a reason; they're not there to avoid embarrassment.

Why are publication bans in place? Is it at the womens request? Are they allowed privacy during a murder investigation?