weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[BorgQueen]

(RSBM)

Actually, they met when she was 17, but she testified that they didn't start going out until after her 18th birthday. I haven't yet read the Tweets, but LFP was mistaken. I was at the trial yesterday and took notes. HTH

But, I agree that he wasn't very discriminating in his choices - in either age or appearance (unless their appearances have changed drastically over the past three years). The 50 year-old mother of six threw me for a loop!

JMO

Oh, thank you. From what I have read, I was left with the impression that they met, and started dating, when she was 17. Which was probably done deliberately (you know how reporters can be... much more interesting to leave out the part where they started dating when she was no longer a minor... :eyeroll: ).

The 50 year old made me go :what: , too. What could a 50 year old woman possibly want from a then-28 year old boy (young man, but boy in comparison). She could be his mother! But, I guess if somebody was lonely enough to use POF to find a date, his age didn't matter. (And I am not trying to be judgemental by that statement. I have used POF, myself, until I was absolutely creeped out by most of the people who contacted me, including one that threatened to 'find' me after I didn't respond... promptly deleted my profile after that). In fact, I believe that is what he was looking for on POF. Extremely lonely, possibly desperate women... :moo:

 

[brighidin]

MR went on a POF bender after the kidnapping. Maybe this was his version of "ugly coping" a la Casey Anthony.

 

[matou]

IMO, NO ONE is completely impartial about this case. JMO

 

[brighidin]

Oh, thank you. From what I have read, I was left with the impression that they met, and started dating, when she was 17. Which was probably done deliberately (you know how reporters can be... much more interesting to leave out the part where they started dating when she was no longer a minor... :eyeroll: ).

The 50 year old made me go :what: , too. What could a 50 year old woman possibly want from a then-28 year old boy (young man, but boy in comparison). She could be his mother! But, I guess if somebody was lonely enough to use POF to find a date, his age didn't matter. (And I am not trying to be judgemental by that statement. I have used POF, myself, until I was absolutely creeped out by most of the people who contacted me, including one that threatened to 'find' me after I didn't respond... promptly deleted my profile after that). In fact, I believe that is what he was looking for on POF. Extremely lonely, possibly desperate women... :moo:

I just think that a 28 year old should never ever be referred to as a boy. Regardless of the age of the woman, he was/is still a grown man, not a child. Lots of older women date younger men!

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with online dating. I have never tried it, and thanks to this case, I never will!

 

[BorgQueen]

IMO, NO ONE is completely impartial about this case. JMO

You're right. Even people sitting on the fence seem to have their legs hanging over on one side or the other.

 

[antiquegirl]

Antiquegirl, is there a characteristic/pattern with these women which you may have noticed by their appearance or actions in the court room. We can only go by the snippets of tweets that were posted. Did they make you see something in them that MTR might find appealing? I don't know if you are allowed to answer this question but it sure is thought provoking:moo:

Physically - only that he seems to like women who wear glasses. Several, but not all, did, and I'm aware of another who also does. The brunettes were in the majority - of the seven women, only two were blondes (and probably not natural blondes from the looks of it). They ranged in height and weight. However, as I wrote, we don't know what they looked like 3+ years ago.

Their demeanor varied, too. A couple were very nervous about testifying and were obviously not used to speaking in front of a crowd. I didn't get the impression that it was because of MTR per se, but because they were in the spotlight and under oath.

SL, the real estate broker seemed confident and most relaxed. She was older than the others and I'm guessing she's more used to public speaking. The woman whose name is under a publication ban was the best-educated, most articulate and very well-prepared. No hemming and hawing, had all her dates and details ready and memorized. She is the one who had only a 15 minute coffee date with MTR and decided not to see him again. Most of these testimonies took just a few minutes, almost all were present only for the duration of it and left when they were finished. (Except for SL, who stayed to watch when she was done.) The longest testimony was from RB, the youngest, who knew MTR best, but hadn't seen him since 2008. She seemed shy, was quite lovely, and her parents were there for support. (At least, they seemed to be her parents.)

None of them were on the stand long enough, really, to judge other similarities or "type".

HTH & JMO

 

[BorgQueen]

I just think that a 28 year old should never ever be referred to as a boy. Regardless of the age of the woman, he was/is still a grown man, not a child. Lots of older women date younger men!

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with online dating. I have never tried it, and thanks to this case, I never will!

You're right, a 28 year old is not a child. Didn't mean to imply that he is. Poor choice of words to demonstrate the extreme age gap. Yes, plenty of older women date younger men (and vice versa). That is an age gap that makes me, personally, feel slightly uncomfortable (and would if the genders were reversed).

And I definitely do not recommend online dating. When I was 14, met some guy from a chat room. Was lead to believe he was also a teenager. Turned out he was 48 and he tried to get me to pose nude for him to take photographs of me. I HAVE met some fantastic people online, but the creeps seem to outnumber them significantly.

 

[Macright]

IMO, NO ONE is completely impartial about this case. JMO

I agree...some lean a little more to the left or the right...some become too personal and attached....:moo:

 

[Flowercb]

I just caught up and I just want to comment on some of MTRs behavior that is quite telling to me.

I think that talking with others, especially someone who has a daughter that was a playmate of Tory's, is the absolute last thing someone who was forced to participate in the abduction would do.

If MTR was forced to help TLM cover up her crime you would think that he would be consumed with guilt. If that were the case you would think that he would go out of his way to avoid even thinking about what he had been apart of. But he didn't. He had one of her missing flyers in his home and he talked about the abduction with people.

And one more thing, if we are to believe the defence's alternate scenario, TLM would have been responsible for his involvement in it all, yet when he spoke of TLM he talked about wanting to help her. It doesn't fit.

This shows lack of remorse or feelings of guilt--even if he was an innocent bystander. So it shows he has it in him to do the deed.MOO:moo::moo:

 

[antiquegirl]

ah Antiquegirl..so nice to see you back posting...missed your sensible and impartial input on this case... I know you can't actually describe on this site, those women that took the stand yesterday but it is not too difficult to conjure up images...I guess they have had their fifteen minutes of fame... I see none of them as "victims"..just women putting themselves out there on a dating site...I guess you could say "ya takes your chances"..

I don't see why it wouldn't be okay to describe them to a certain extent. All but one of their names has been published by the media. I would think that a little Googling might bring up a picture or two. I don't know if media photographers have captured any of their images, but there was nothing stopping them from doing so. BA certainly didn't escape that bit of publicity, to her obvious distress.

My previous post describes them generally, only to show that they varied physically and in demeanor. None was on the stand very long, and all but one left after testifying. Most of them looked like very nice, "girl-next-door" types, if that's what people are wondering. Nothing flamboyant or over-the-top about any of them. Even the oldest one looked kind of ordinary ... but "well preserved", if I may say so. From the back, she could have passed for 20.

JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

You're right, a 28 year old is not a child. Didn't mean to imply that he is. Poor choice of words to demonstrate the extreme age gap. Yes, plenty of older women date younger men (and vice versa). That is an age gap that makes me, personally, feel slightly uncomfortable (and would if the genders were reversed).

And I definitely do not recommend online dating. When I was 14, met some guy from a chat room. Was lead to believe he was also a teenager. Turned out he was 48 and he tried to get me to pose nude for him to take photographs of me. I HAVE met some fantastic people online, but the creeps seem to outnumber them significantly.

BBM

I have been on the internet since 1994 when regular people barely knew about the internet and I have never had a profile on any of those dating sites nor did I have a facebook page until last year. I was always more intested in coding games so I hung out with people online who had similar interests/hobbies. I visited my online friends in England and Belgium on several occasions but that was after I knew them for years and I would trust any one of them with my life. I would never go meet someone I had just met online. It's just too dangerous(.).

 

[Tahorn]

ah Antiquegirl..so nice to see you back posting...missed your sensible and impartial input on this case... I know you can't actually describe on this site, those women that took the stand yesterday but it is not too difficult to conjure up images...I guess they have had their fifteen minutes of fame... I see none of them as "victims"..just women putting themselves out there on a dating site...I guess you could say "ya takes your chances"..

The term COUGAR comes to mind.

 

[BorgQueen]

BBM

I have been on the internet since 1994 when regular people barely knew about the internet and I have never had a profile on any of those dating sites nor did I have a facebook page until last year. I was always more intested in coding games so I hung out with people online who had similar interests/hobbies. I visited my online friends in England and Belgium on several occasions but that was after I knew them for years and I would trust any one of them with my life. I would never go meet someone I had just met online. It's just too dangerous(.).

Oh, it definitely is. I am quite lucky to still be alive, really. It is not something I will ever do again (and I am not entirely sure why I went on POF as an adult after dealing with that guy when I was 14, only desperation can explain that one), and I would strongly discourage ANYBODY from doing. Most people don't listen to me, but the best I can do is try to help and protect people. Not everybody has been as lucky as I have been. Many people have not got out of it unharmed.
I think predators thrive on the anonymity of the internet, the naievity (sp?) of young people on the internet, and desperation and loneliness of women (often single mothers) on dating sites. The internet CAN be a wonderful, fun place with wonderful, kind people, but it can also be extremely dangerous. I have experienced both.

 

[ChaChaCha]

I don't see why it wouldn't be okay to describe them to a certain extent. All but one of their names has been published by the media. I would think that a little Googling might bring up a picture or two. I don't know if media photographers have captured any of their images, but there was nothing stopping them from doing so. BA certainly didn't escape that bit of publicity, to her obvious distress.

My previous post describes them generally, only to show that they varied physically and in demeanor. None was on the stand very long, and all but one left after testifying. Most of them looked like very nice, "girl-next-door" types, if that's what people are wondering. Nothing flamboyant or over-the-top about any of them. Even the oldest one looked kind of ordinary ... but "well preserved", if I may say so. From the back, she could have passed for 20.

JMO

Questions if I may?

My understanding is that several of the women just met him once ... did any of them say exactly why they weren't interested in actually dating him? Did all of them "dump" him or did he dump them?

How many of the women had children under the age of 12?

Did you get a look at his expressions when each one testified? The media reported that he seemed upset during one woman's testimony last Thursday?

Thanks in advance!

(PS Well preserved lol! Like a pickle?)

 

[gardenia]

thanks AG for your 'in the courtroom' observations. i too have missed your posts! glad to see you're back!

 

[Ardy]

IMO.....JMO......MOO

This trial seems to have diverged onto two different paths.......from the point of abduction

The Crown assertions are that MR was not only a knowing participant, but he was directing TLM to enable his plans.

The defense (apparent) assertions are that TLM abducted VS without the knowledge of MR and their version of events happened from there.

So..............I believe that the abduction, and the reason for the abduction are absolutely crucial to supporting either side's assertions.

With that in mind, I am puzzled by several things.

The video of the abduction shows TLM leading VS away, allegedly without knowing who VS was. She is apparently unconcerned that she has to pass people standing on the sidewalk waiting for someone. We saw one person in the video, and there may have been others who were waiting in other locations or in their cars. TLM also would not know if VS was expecting someone to come for her but who had not arrived yet. If TLM didn't know who VS was.......she wouldn't know which person on the street or coming down the street would want to know why she was with their daughter.

I find TLM's statement that she introduced herself to VS by discussing her dog, exactly the same breed as owned by VS, as a pretty big coincidence. Of all the conversations in the world they could have had......it was about a dog of the breed that both of them had.

Even accepting that, I am not sure VS would walk away with her.........just because she had a similar dog. VS was expecting to walk with her brother and would have waited for his return, I would think.

I move forward to the pea coat, which TLM said covered VS for several hours. I expected there would be some DNA residue on a heavy material coat like that one.........and there was, but none of it was identified as VS DNA. Maybe it was there and is now gone. Maybe it was never there because the coat never covered VS. A question left unanswered.

Immediately and throughout the disappearance and trial, there have been rumors of a drug debt. The rumors were denied throughout, until TM confirmed that she did not have a drug debt.......but her boyfriend JG did rip someone off for $400 worth of pills. In the drug debt world, I doubt they make such fine distinctions.

I found it puzzling that the Crown did not pursue it, and ask who was owed the drug debt. If the drug debt was owed to someone totally uninvolved and not connected in any way to the trial.........it would have crushed all the rumors the debt was connected to the abduction.

Why didn't they ask? By not asking, they left the door open to the defense to introduce their theory about an abduction for a drug debt.

Moving ahead to recent testimony..........and someone can correct me if I am wrong.............

Prior to the abduction, MR knew one woman who knew TM, and to whose home VS had been to play with her kids.

TLM knew MR who knew AC who knew VS and TM.

I believe in her testimony the woman also said that she and MR were in the car and saw JG on the sidewalk. She said they began texting, although I was not clear on who was texting who by her testimony.

So now.......TLM knew MR who knew both AC and JG. AC and JG knew both TM and VS.

The circle becomes even smaller when one considers that TLM lived with her mother CM who sold drugs to TM and JG.

My own conclusion is that it is far more likely that TLM knew of VS, than she didn't.

I would be wondering if MR was the one texting JG...........or JG was texting MR......or neither were texting each other.

I was disappointed the Crown didn't ask that question.

Basically, I am wondering why the Crown has chosen not to probe more deeply than they have, because their case is not a slam dunk by a long shot.

If the Crown had settled the abduction and drug debt issues at the start, their case would look a lot stronger now.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

The term COUGAR comes to mind.

Of the seven female witnesses yesterday, I would only classify one as a "cougar". The rest ranged in age from 23 to 33 years old. But that was just yesterday.

For the record, I am very close to two women who met men on an online dating site, albeit not POF. One has been very happily married to the guy for 3+ years and the other is set to marry hers in June. I also have an acquaintance who met his wife of 20+ years online. They were both pioneers to the internet technology, although I think their meeting was prior to dating sites.

I have met more than a dozen women (no men) in real life that I got to know online within the past 15 years. All have been positive, wonderful experiences and I'm still friends with all but one. I have actually visited three of them in different countries. In a lot of cases, you can get to know people more closely through written communication than in person. More confidences are shared and at greater length than real life often allows.

Frankly, I see a much greater risk in meeting men in bars, restaurants, etc. Even mutual friend referrals or meeting in church is no guarantee that someone is not a sociopath or just untrustworthy. We've all read enough true crime to know that. Of course, one has to be careful and good judgment is necessary. It's all in how you go about it.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

Questions if I may?

My understanding is that several of the women just met him once ... did any of them say exactly why they weren't interested in actually dating him? Did all of them "dump" him or did he dump them?

How many of the women had children under the age of 12?

Did you get a look at his expressions when each one testified? The media reported that he seemed upset during one woman's testimony last Thursday?

Thanks in advance!

(PS Well preserved lol! Like a pickle?)

Oh, boy, Cha! You're a hard task master (mistress?) I took copious notes, but I'd have to go over them all and try to glean your answers from there. Can I get back to you after I have some late lunch?

JMO

 

[Ardy]

IMO

I must add.............

That I have incredible difficulty trying to understand why MR acted the way he did "after" the crime was committed..........if he had no knowledge it was going to happen.

His conduct following..............is just not explainable, to me.

I could not imagine someone so uncaring, self centered, and morally corrupt that they would hide the evidence and pretend it all didn't happen.

The only explanation I can think of..........is that he has severe disorders himself and his brain is fried from drugs.

That isn't an excuse for his conduct..........but it is all I can think of..........

Even then it is a big stretch.

IMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I quoted you and made my replies in blue inside your quote

I move forward to the pea coat, which TLM said covered VS for several hours. I expected there would be some DNA residue on a heavy material coat like that one.........and there was, but none of it was identified as VS DNA. Maybe it was there and is now gone. Maybe it was never there because the coat never covered VS. A question left unanswered.

I believe that one of the hairs had female DNA and the other could not be identified.

Immediately and throughout the disappearance and trial, there have been rumors of a drug debt. The rumors were denied throughout, until TM confirmed that she did not have a drug debt.......but her boyfriend JG did rip someone off for $400 worth of pills. In the drug debt world, I doubt they make such fine distinctions.

I found it puzzling that the Crown did not pursue it, and ask who was owed the drug debt. If the drug debt was owed to someone totally uninvolved and not connected in any way to the trial.........it would have crushed all the rumors the debt was connected to the abduction.

Why didn't they ask? By not asking, they left the door open to the defense to introduce their theory about an abduction for a drug debt.

I believe Derstine already suggested in his opening statement that TLM told MR that she was taking VS for a drug debt! Their whole defense is based on that.


Moving ahead to recent testimony..........and someone can correct me if I am wrong.............

Prior to the abduction, MR knew one woman who knew TM, and to whose home VS had been to play with her kids.

TLM knew MR who knew AC who knew VS and TM.

I believe in her testimony the woman also said that she and MR were in the car and saw JG on the sidewalk. She said they began texting, although I was not clear on who was texting who by her testimony.

I'm pretty sure you have that the wrong way around, I think that the womand was driving JG to an appointment and they saw MR on the sidewalk.
JMO