Were there floor jacks in the Ramsey basement?

[Sophie]

None of the official pathologists, if that's what you're asking. Other than that, Lou Smit, but that's only one of several instances where he just invented things out of thin air.

But I know at LEAST four who agree with me:

Werner Spitz

Tom Henry

Ronald Wright

and Henry Lee.

Thanks, Dave

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks, Dave

A pleasure.

 

[Ames]

Go to this link, and scroll down to the second picture from the bottom: (I'm not computer literate enough to cut and paste it)

http://www.jameson245.com/garotte.htm

Also, Lou Smit, who was the most experienced investigator on the case said this on Larry King:

KING: You never found a case where a mother did that.

SMIT: Never recorded history where a family member -- a mother or a father has garroted their child. Child strangulation is very rare. Usually when a person is involved in the death of their child, the child is hit on the head or pushed into something, to take -- to take a piece of rope, fashion a garrote, put it on the child's neck, she is definitely struggling at the time that this is put on the neck, there are fingernail marks in her neck, which suggest very strongly, that she was awake, when this happened.

John Meyer, the medical examiner that performed the autopsy, didn't get everything right--he missed the stun gun marks. He noted abrasions, but didn't know that they were stun gun marks. Likewise, he didn't specifically call out the scratches on her neck. I'm not aware one way or the other if it's ever been publically stated that JBR's skin was under her nails. There was foreign DNA, which ultimately matched DNA in her panties.

The sheets were not changed....at least not on the 26th. That seems to be an established fact. Also found on the sheets were fibers that were found in the paper bag that held rope in John Andrews bedroom....and ligarture cord fibers. Patsy could have changed them since LHP was there--or LHP got it wrong. I'm not aware of a bloodstain being found on the pillow.

And never in recorded history has there EVER been a ransom note left behind, along with the child. Kinda defeats the purpose of a ransom note, now doesn't it?

 

[Ames]

Agree with most of this, Ames. Your knowledge of this case is encyclopaedic: you and SuperDave could teach a course!

Thanks, and to be mentioned in the same sentence as SD, is an honor...

 

[JMO8778]

I know what you mean, Maikai, but, if you've had stage four ovarian cancer, the outlook is never that good and there have been suggestions (albeit from sources outside the investigation) that maybe John's place at Access Graphics wasn't as stable as it appeared. Not that this matters other than as background. I honestly think that Patsy lived an incredibly stressed life. The thought of everything she was packing into Christmas week stresses me just to think about it. Of course, a lot of it was self-induced, like making sure the Michigan house was decked out elaborately for the holidays etc, but also making sure everyone looked picture perfect (eg. dyeing one's own hair on Christmas Day allegedly).

I don't think his job was necessarily stable.there was talk of quite the opposite,and the fact the dress JB was buried in was second-hand because Patsy needed to spend less on the pageants.so she very well could have been stressed about money.
in DOI,John talks about the fact he was planning on taking a year off from AG.I think it was koldkase that went into some interesting speculation on that on forums for justice.worth reading,IMO.why would John,the workaholic who wouldn't even take time off to travel with Patsy to her cancer treatments,suddenly claim he was planning on taking a whole year off??? he didn't say that for no apparent reason.there was obviously something to it.

 

[JMO8778]

And never in recorded history has there EVER been a ransom note left behind, along with the child. Kinda defeats the purpose of a ransom note, now doesn't it?

yep,kinda works like this;it goes nowhere: --><--

 

[JMO8778]

The coroner disproved any notion of the marks on her neck being scratches. They were not fingernail marks. They were petechiae, common in strangling victims.
Most feel PR loved her daughter very much, however controlling she was. This was not a premeditated murder, IMHO. This was a rage accident, and once that blow cracked her skull, the staging took over like a runaway train.
I say rage accident, because it is different from a true accident, such as JBR falling down the stairs for example. In that case, even if the fall had killed her instantly, the parents would probably still have called for help. I say probably because if they felt sexual abuse may be disclosed in an autopsy, they may still have staged a murder.
Though PR didn't intend to kill her daughter, once that bash landed, there was no turning back. To call 911 at that point would mean an R being charged with something, even aggravated manslaughter. Though in Boulder, I doubt there would have been any jail or even significant consequences. But there would have been lots of negative publicity, loss of status in the community (which PR particularly thrived on) and a difficult situation for BR. The staging and their subsequent escape from responsibility for the death of their daughter gave them a pass. One they still enjoy- PR through her death and thus freedom from prosecution, and JR though his supreme ability to sleaze his way out of the whole thing.

yes and I do think Patsy was stressed;she was a perfectionist in her outward appearances to the world,yet,behind the scenes,I believe her life was falling apart and her daughter was rejecting her,and that enraged her immensely.IMO the rage was an accident waiting to happen.

 

[JMO8778]

as far as LHP,here's what she had to say about it:

http://www.rense.com/general11/benet.htm

[SIZE=+1]Ex-Housekeeper Says Patsy Killed JonBenet

[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] Afterward, Hoffmann-Pugh walked outside the federal courthouse in Denver and said she told the grand jury investigating the murder that she believes the beauty queen was killed by her mother, Patsy Ramsey.

"At first, I didn't want to believe that Patsy could do such a thing," said the 57-year-old Platteville resident, who now delivers newspapers. "I loved her. But as time went on, things came to me that made me think she did it. I want Patsy Ramsey tomorrow to look in the mirror and say to herself, "I killed JonBenet.'"

Hoffmann-Pugh challenged the state's rules, which forbid witnesses from repeating what they've told grand jurors unless an indictment or report is issued, in order to write a book about her experiences with the Ramsey family.

She said the grand jury focused almost exclusively on Patsy Ramsey. "It was almost all about Patsy, down to the underwear she had purchased from Bloomingdales," she said. "They wanted to know how she related to JonBenet. I felt in my heart they were going to indict Patsy."[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]She said she told the grand jury that Patsy had become very moody right before Christmas of 1996. "I think she had multiple personalities. She'd be in a good mood and then she'd be cranky. She got into arguments with JonBenet about wearing a dress or about a friend coming over. I had never seen Patsy so upset.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]"I don't believe Patsy meant to kill her. I truly believe it was an accident that just continued," said Hoffmann-Pugh, who worked in the Ramsey house until three days before the slaying on Dec. 26, 1996, and testified before the grand jury in January 1999.[/SIZE]

 

[JMO8778]

LHP stated 'multiple personalities'.I believe Patsy had obvious signs and symptoms of bipolar disorder.It can indeed make someone appear to have a totally different personality,due to the severe mood swings.A Jekyll and Hyde of sorts,although it's not the same as multiple personality disorder.

And if she had any alcohol and or meds in addition to that,(even so,without or without) it's not a stretch of the imagination to think she could have exploded in a rage that ended in JB's death.

 

[BBB167893]

"At first, I didn't want to believe that Patsy could do such a thing. I loved her. But as time went on, things came to me that made me think she did it."

That describes me to a T.

I want Patsy Ramsey tomorrow to look in the mirror and say to herself, "I killed JonBenet.'"

I sympathize.

 

[Becky319]

Dave I am glad you are on right now..this is probably OT for jacks in the basement, but do you think there is any truth that Patsy and sister/sisters might have been sexually abused as youngsters causing Patsy to have multiple personalities?? TIA

 

[BBB167893]

Dave I am glad you are on right now..this is probably OT for jacks in the basement, but do you think there is any truth that Patsy and sister/sisters might have been sexually abused as youngsters causing Patsy to have multiple personalities?? TIA

I'm not much on the idea of multiple personalities one way or another, although Tom Haney said something along those lines.

But as for Patsy and her sisters being sexually abused as youngsters, I have often wondered about that. Just a gut feeling, you know. I admit, that's all it is, but I've learned to trust those feelings.

 

[TinaD]

If Patsy could have been tipsy, don't you think she would have passed out? As it is, no one has said Patsy was a heavy drinker---only a glass or two of wine occasionally. I do think the perp was a druggie---and possibly high on something at the time of the crime, such as methamphetamine. Also, the weapons brought in such as a stun gun....possibly a bat....are more in line with what the young thugs in the area were using at the time. The blow to the head was powerful, and done with a great deal of force. Patsy did not have a criminal mind---she didn't know how to make a garrotte, let alone use it on her daughter, and there's no way she could have lurked around the house in the dark undetected doing all this staging and coverup, and remaining quiet.

So you're saying that Patsy couldn't have "lurked around" her own house in the dark, doing everything that was done undetected, and yet a "druggie, possibly high at the time" could?

 

[nobull]

Dave I am glad you are on right now..this is probably OT for jacks in the basement, but do you think there is any truth that Patsy and sister/sisters might have been sexually abused as youngsters causing Patsy to have multiple personalities?? TIA

O/T but just weighing in on the last part of this question. The Psychiatrists "bible" or the "DSM" does not recognize "Multiple Personality Disorder" as a condition at this time. They have renamed it "Dissociative Identity Disorder" and it is a diagnosis that is extremely rarely given. Many psychiatrists believe that it was a fad diagnosis years ago and one that certain unscrupulous therapists and psychiatrists in the past tended to "groom" their patients to become, either knowingly or not by planting suggestions/ideas in the client's mind.

Most often the clients that have histories of childhood sexual abuse are clients that tend to get diagnoses such as: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Depression, Anxiety and Borderline Personality Disorder (ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!), Eating Disorders such as Anorexia and Bulemia and Self-Harming such as cutting or burning oneself. It is not uncommon for those clients to have a combination of diagnoses/traits up to and including all of the above.

I work in the field, and after many years have yet to see a bona fide instance of DID. There are, however, lots of not-so-good actors and actresses that attempt to gain attention this way. (I wonder who that sounds like?) I was working with one client that carried a decades-old diagnosis of DID but the alters would only come out when other people were around to witness the behaviors. Amazingly (or not so much), a string of alters coincidentally seemed to enjoy coming out when many people were in the room. Conversely, nothing would happen when they had no visitors or no staff would be there or they thought no one was watching.

 

[rashomon]

Must say, it surprises me to read people claiming that the head blow came last.

If she had been dead from strangulation first, the head wound would neither have bled nor would there have been contusions or swelling. Mild swelling was present, as well as extensive brain contusions measuring over eight inches (!) in length, and up to 1.75 inches in width, there was extensive scalp hemorrhage, extensive subdural hemorrhage and extensive subarachnoid hemorrhage - all three types of hemmorhage extending over the complete right hemisphere of the brain.

I'm in email contact with an emergency room physician and she said JonBenet's head wound is classified as "catastrophic" - that is, even immediate medical intervention could not have saved her. She would have lost consciousness immediately and according to the M.D., experts do agree that she would not have lived for more than 1 hour after the infliction of the head wound.

Cyril Wecht thinks JonBenet died as a result of an "erotic asphyxiation" sex game, but there is no evidence whatsoever to support such a theory. On the contrary, the type of cord used and the tied neck knot flatly contradict such a theory.
Imo the so-called "garrote" was a stage prop fashioned to conceal what had been at the origin of the tragedy: a head blow struck out in a rage.

 

[Sophie]

If she had been dead from strangulation first, the head wound would neither have bled nor would there have been contusions or swelling. Mild swelling was present, as well as extensive brain contusions measuring over eight inches (!) in length, and up to 1.75 inches in width, there was extensive scalp hemorrhage, extensive subdural hemorrhage and extensive subarachnoid hemorrhage - all three types of hemmorhage extending over the complete right hemisphere of the brain.

I'm in email contact with an emergency room physician and she said JonBenet's head wound is classified as "catastrophic" - that is, even immediate medical intervention could not have saved her. She would have lost consciousness immediately and according to the M.D., experts do agree that she would not have lived for more than 1 hour after the infliction of the head wound.

Cyril Wecht thinks JonBenet died as a result of an "erotic asphyxiation" sex game, but there is no evidence whatsoever to support such a theory. On the contrary, the type of cord used and the tied neck knot flatly contradict such a theory.
Imo he so-called "garrote" was a stage prop fashioned to conceal what had been at the origin of the tragedy: a head blow struck out in a rage.

Thanks Rashomon, that's really interesting. I wonder whether law enforcement actually looked at the physics of the 'garrote.' I can't think of a single piece of evidence in this case which has caused so much confusion and error than the suggestion that the ligature was a) a really sophisticated device and b) was used to 'garrote' JBR.

 

[Sophie]

O/T but just weighing in on the last part of this question. The Psychiatrists "bible" or the "DSM" does not recognize "Multiple Personality Disorder" as a condition at this time. They have renamed it "Dissociative Identity Disorder" and it is a diagnosis that is extremely rarely given. Many psychiatrists believe that it was a fad diagnosis years ago and one that certain unscrupulous therapists and psychiatrists in the past tended to "groom" their patients to become, either knowingly or not by planting suggestions/ideas in the client's mind.

Most often the clients that have histories of childhood sexual abuse are clients that tend to get diagnoses such as: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Depression, Anxiety and Borderline Personality Disorder (ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!), Eating Disorders such as Anorexia and Bulemia and Self-Harming such as cutting or burning oneself. It is not uncommon for those clients to have a combination of diagnoses/traits up to and including all of the above.

I work in the field, and after many years have yet to see a bona fide instance of DID. There are, however, lots of not-so-good actors and actresses that attempt to gain attention this way. (I wonder who that sounds like?) I was working with one client that carried a decades-old diagnosis of DID but the alters would only come out when other people were around to witness the behaviors. Amazingly (or not so much), a string of alters coincidentally seemed to enjoy coming out when many people were in the room. Conversely, nothing would happen when they had no visitors or no staff would be there or they thought no one was watching.

This is fascinating, thanks. Your description certainly rings a bell

 

[Ames]

So you're saying that Patsy couldn't have "lurked around" her own house in the dark, doing everything that was done undetected, and yet a "druggie, possibly high at the time" could?

LOL...good question. I didn't even notice that part of the post.

Not to mention that the "druggie", possibly high at the time...most likely had never even been in the Ramsey's home before. The house was dark, JAR himself, said that the house was like a maze. Patsy herself said that the basement was a mess, with old furniture piled up down there. Oh BUT...this druggie, high at the time, manuvered around this dark crowded maze, without making a sound? The Ramsey's are the only people that would have been able to do that.

 

[Ames]

Thanks Rashomon, that's really interesting. I wonder whether law enforcement actually looked at the physics of the 'garrote.' I can't think of a single piece of evidence in this case which has caused so much confusion and error than the suggestion that the ligature was a) a really sophisticated device and b) was used to 'garrote' JBR.

When John was interviewed....he said that he didn't even notice the "twister" when he brought her up the stairs, from the basement. I thought that it was extremely weird that he would referred to the cord as a "twister". How did HE know the slang word for a garotte?

 

[Sophie]

I don't think his job was necessarily stable.there was talk of quite the opposite,and the fact the dress JB was buried in was second-hand because Patsy needed to spend less on the pageants.so she very well could have been stressed about money.
in DOI,John talks about the fact he was planning on taking a year off from AG.I think it was koldkase that went into some interesting speculation on that on forums for justice.worth reading,IMO.why would John,the workaholic who wouldn't even take time off to travel with Patsy to her cancer treatments,suddenly claim he was planning on taking a whole year off??? he didn't say that for no apparent reason.there was obviously something to it.

Thanks, JMO. Went over to Forums for Justice and, after being sidelined by the comic genius of BobC et al, I found a number of useful threads on this. Zapata also did some useful research a few years ago. Certainly, the Ramsey affluence looks like it may have been more questionable than we are generally led to believe.

ETA: although if memory serves, I think ST personally went through their accounts and they were fairly impressive (assuming the accounts he saw were the same as the ones their auditor saw).