Were there floor jacks in the Ramsey basement?

[BBB167893]

I also have wisdom in these matters.

I never said you didn't.

No matter in what part of the house that JonBenet was hit, the type of injury she sustained would have bled so profusely that it would have been virtually impossible to clean.

Except that the blow did not break the skin, Roy. One could interpret you to mean that it did, when it didn't. It's what's called a compartment skull fracture. And I've asked several medical professionals in my area who are not involved in this case. A neurosurgeon and a professor of medicine, and they agree with me.

And it's not like a person has to be dead for a head wound to be inflicted that doesn't break the skin.

Now, when you say "clean it," are you referring to the flashlight, the room or her body? You weren't that specific.

Thus, I conclude she was dead or on the verge of death upon this blow.

I think there's some confusion here.

And for those who want to argue that only JB sheets were stained and then cleaned, keep in mind that Mr. Thomas has stated that the sheets were wet and contained creatine.

I don't remember it being him who said that. But then, sometimes it's hard to keep track.

Who says I agree with his theory?

 

[Roy23]

I never said you didn't.



Except that the blow did not break the skin, Roy. One could interpret you to mean that it did, when it didn't. It's what's called a compartment skull fracture. And I've asked several medical professionals in my area who are not involved in this case. A neurosurgeon and a professor of medicine, and they agree with me.

And it's not like a person has to be dead for a head wound to be inflicted that doesn't break the skin.

Now, when you say "clean it," are you referring to the flashlight, the room or her body? You weren't that specific.



I think there's some confusion here.



I don't remember it being him who said that. But then, sometimes it's hard to keep track.

Who says I agree with his theory?

I am referring mainly to the room but I will apply it to the flashlight as well. The problem was the lack of blood. When I read the autopsy report, I see that JB had petechial hemorrages under the eyelids and areas on and around her skull. That tells me a different story than what you are telling me.

I think her heart most likely stopped pumping before the blow to the head. And I am not saying you agree with Thomas theory but I am positive about him saying that the bed was wet.

I have a lot of hope for this case now. I have been reading up some. I think with some of the ego's out of the way, and less media pressure, they will solve this pretty soon. I worry about a conviction though.

I think you give Patsy too much credit. She was not that smart to stage something like this . No way and no how.

 

[BBB167893]

I am referring mainly to the room but I will apply it to the flashlight as well. The problem was the lack of blood.

Like I said, how do you figure?

When I read the autopsy report, I see that JB had petechial hemorrages under the eyelids and areas on and around her skull. That tells me a different story than what you are telling me.

You'll have to be more specific. Just what is it you think I'm telling you?

And I'm well aware of what the autopsy report says. I ought to be. Yes, it says that, but it hardly tells a different story. In fact, the Bantam Medical Dictionary defines petechiae as "bleeding into the skin or under the mucous membrane." In other words, it still would not escape the body.

I think her heart most likely stopped pumping before the blow to the head.

I gathered that.

And I am not saying you agree with Thomas theory but I am positive about him saying that the bed was wet.

I'll double-check.

I have a lot of hope for this case now.

As do I. Remember what I told you when we heard the news that the police were back in? How I would have waited an eternity for it?

I have been reading up some.

VERY good.

I think with some of the ego's out of the way, and less media pressure, they will solve this pretty soon. I worry about a conviction though.

I've been thinking the same thing.

I think you give Patsy too much credit. She was not that smart to stage something like this . No way and no how.

Too much credit? Are you kidding? I've said at least a hundred times she couldn't do it on her own. PLUS, the FBI said that whoever staged the scene had minimal knowledge of what a criminal would do. So how am I giving her too much credit?

 

[Roy23]

Like I said, how do you figure?



You'll have to be more specific. Just what is it you think I'm telling you?

And I'm well aware of what the autopsy report says. I ought to be. Yes, it says that, but it hardly tells a different story. In fact, the Bantam Medical Dictionary defines petechiae as "bleeding into the skin or under the mucous membrane." In other words, it still would not escape the body.



I gathered that.



I'll double-check.



As do I. Remember what I told you when we heard the news that the police were back in? How I would have waited an eternity for it?



VERY good.



I've been thinking the same thing.



Too much credit? Are you kidding? I've said at least a hundred times she couldn't do it on her own. PLUS, the FBI said that whoever staged the scene had minimal knowledge of what a criminal would do. So how am I giving her too much credit?

I am saying that if her heart was pumping and there was blood flow the surrounding pressure would assist in breaking the skin and blood everywhere.

As far as Patsy is concerned, do I assume that you say John assisted? A lot of sick and twisted things were done to that girl that were totally unnecessary. I think it is farfetched to think they would do this kind of abuse on something that was an accident. Then contaminate their own staging by carrying the body upstairs.

 

[rashomon]

I have to disagree with this too. The lack of blood tells a story here. It would be virtually impossible for it to be their flashlight and find almost no trace of blood. I believe she was dead or near dead from strangulation before the powerful blow to the head was made. And the object that did it was no longer in the house.

The head wound was a closed wound (the scalp had not been broken), so there would have been no blood to wipe off.

That the flashlight was used to inflict the head wound is merely one theory among others. Since it was taken from a drawer near the bottom of the spiral staircase, that is, near the place where the ransom note was found and the notepad was, imo it is more likely the Ramseys used the flashlight to spotlight the place where they wrote the note because they did not want to switch the full light on.
If memory serves, a neighbor saw a moving light in the kitchen area well after midnight.

 

[rashomon]

And for those who want to argue that only JB sheets were stained and then cleaned, keep in mind that Mr. Thomas has stated that the sheets were wet and contained creatine.

No, Mr. Thomas not state that the sheets were wet. He said that by the time the sheets were finally collected, possible urine would already have dried.
The creatinine on the bedsheet did indicate urine, but there exists no public info in the books or on the internet as to whether it had been freshly shed or older urine.

 

[BBB167893]

I am saying that if her heart was pumping and there was blood flow the surrounding pressure would assist in breaking the skin and blood everywhere.

I see. Trouble is, I don't know of any scietific basis for that belief, especially since petechiae involve capillaries, which are so thin the blood has to pass through one cell at a time. And it's not like I didn't ask about it.

As far as Patsy is concerned, do I assume that you say John assisted?

You assume correctly.

A lot of sick and twisted things were done to that girl that were totally unnecessary.

I know that.

I think it is farfetched to think they would do this kind of abuse on something that was an accident.

I sympathize, Roy. I really do. But there are a few things that, for me, make it not so farfetched.

Then contaminate their own staging by carrying the body upstairs.

I hear that one a lot, and I don't buy it.

 

[Ames]

JR's use of that slang expression (twister) was always odd to me. NO one here would use that word, and he was familiar with it because of his previous experience in the Phillippines. It rolled off his tongue pretty easily, IMO.
I know the coroner cut the cord from her neck, marking where he made the cuts. Other than Smit's silly description of the garrot as "expertly" made, I haven't seen where they had a REAL expert identify the cord. Most who did examine it said it wasn't a true garrote, and didn't function that way because of the knots.

No, I agree..nobody here would use that word. In fact, I have NEVER heard the word Twister used to describe the garotte, except from JR's mouth...during his 98 interview. It could be that he DOES know how to make one, since he knew the slang term for it...but, under pressure...he just did a poor job of making one. For example... I know how to knit...kind of...but, under pressure...lets say...oh, ....after the death of my daughter and I was trying to stage a coverup....if I had to knit something, in a certain timeframe... it's not going to turn out quite right. This could be the case with the garotte. It was a half a-- job at making one...because of the time constraint, the stress and the pressure.

 

[Ames]

Possibly, but the evidence indicates it was Patsy who fashioned the so-called 'garrote' and tied the neck knot, for her jacket fibers were found in the wrappings of the broken paintbrush stick and in the paint tray.
As for John using the slang expression 'twister' for this amateurishly constructed thing - it could indicate that he hadn't even taken a closer look at it, for it was no twisting device. It looked almost childish, like a kid playing around with some string to pull something.
The idea of pulling suggested in the stage prop "handle" in turn is in contradiction to the tied knot on the neck.
These basic technical mistakes the offender made with the prop indicate staging imo. The handle was never pulled, but was fashioned for the sole purpose of creating a bizarre-looking "killing tool".

Could be that since Patsy's fibers were found entwined in the garotte...that she did make it...with instructions from John. That's another reason for it not have been the "real" thing, and function as such. I believe that he also dictated that RN to her too....hence the words..."Listen Carefully"..which, imo...were John's words...meant for Patsy as she was going to be the one to write it. Sounds like John was trying to distance himself as much as possible. Dictating the RN to Patsy..so its in HER handwriting...letting her make the garotte, while giving her instructions...etc.

 

[Ames]

If memory serves, Patsy said they also had cocktails before dinner. So that would be one or even two cocktails plus two or more glasses of wine.

According LHP, Patsy was by no means the near-teetotaller as she presented herself in the interviews. LHP said Patsy liked her Chardonnay and always kept a bottle ready in the fridge.
Patsy said the chemo affected her liver so she had to be careful with alcohol. It that case, I think she would have felt the effect of alcohol more that a person with non-damaged liver.

I agree. OHHHHH, you are making me want to go back and re-read Patsy's 98 interview again...I didn't remember reading about the cocktails..but, now that you mention it, it does sound familiar. I do remember reading about the Chardonnay.

 

[rashomon]

Could be that since Patsy's fibers were found entwined in the garotte...that she did make it...with instructions from John. That's another reason for it not have been the "real" thing, and function as such. I believe that he also dictated that RN to her too....hence the words..."Listen Carefully"..which, imo...were John's words...meant for Patsy as she was going to be the one to write it. Sounds like John was trying to distance himself as much as possible. Dictating the RN to Patsy..so its in HER handwriting...letting her make the garotte, while giving her instructions...etc.

Imo this is a possibility, Ames. It looks like John himself wanted to get as little involved as possible in the actual staging. He probably thought they wouldn't get away with it anyway, so Patsy, not he, was to take the rap.
His keeping himself distanced from Patsy during that morning may been part of his 'plan B tactic' too. For at a hypothetical trial, he could have tried to say in his defense that he had been suspicious all along, etc.

But JR's shirt fibers in the victim's underwear would have blown his story apart.

 

[JMO8778]

Could be that since Patsy's fibers were found entwined in the garotte...that she did make it...with instructions from John. That's another reason for it not have been the "real" thing, and function as such. I believe that he also dictated that RN to her too....hence the words..."Listen Carefully"..which, imo...were John's words...meant for Patsy as she was going to be the one to write it. Sounds like John was trying to distance himself as much as possible. Dictating the RN to Patsy..so its in HER handwriting...letting her make the garotte, while giving her instructions...etc.

so true,and then John's fiber evidence in JB's underwear...IMO,he wasn't about to let Patsy stage that,because was the one who had involvement in that area,so he had to make SURE that things were done right..but,as all murders go...there is no perfect one,and he too,messed up the staging.

 

[JMO8778]

I think it is farfetched to think they would do this kind of abuse on something that was an accident.

and that's just it..there were things on JB's body..the CHRONIC sexual abuse...that were NOT an accident...they HAD to explain that..merely staging an accident would not suffice.

 

[TinaD]

Imo this is a possibility, Ames. It looks like John himself wanted to get as little involved as possible in the actual staging. He probably thought they wouldn't get away with it anyway, so Patsy, not he, was to take the rap.

I agree entirely. I really don't think John thought their staging would fool anyone for a long period of time so he created a Plan B for himself.

 

[JMO8778]

I agree entirely. I really don't think John thought their staging would fool anyone for a long period of time so he created a Plan B for himself.

and things like getting his own set of lawyers didn't hurt,either!
due to some items PP took in her raid of the house (passports,mementos,etc.),I really think they had plans to leave the country,or were at least seriously considering it.

 

[Ames]

The neighborhood is very dark---there would be no reason for Patsy to lurk around in the house with the lights off.

The perp came somewhat prepared for a crime of some sort, so probably had a flashlight (unknown if it was his on the countertop).

Patsy did not have the criminal wherewithall to write the ransom note, or do any type of staging...not to mention the force it took for the blow to the head, and knowledge of garotting. You have to know these things to do it.

Who said that Patsy lurked around in the dark?

You are not correct about the flashlight...the one on the countertop DID belong to the Ramseys.

Patsy did have the wherehwithall to write the ransom note...and to do staging because she was trying to save her behind from going to jail.

 

[BBB167893]

I agree entirely. I really don't think John thought their staging would fool anyone for a long period of time so he created a Plan B for himself.

"Plan B." That's about how I'd say it.

 

[Ames]

Imo this is a possibility, Ames. It looks like John himself wanted to get as little involved as possible in the actual staging. He probably thought they wouldn't get away with it anyway, so Patsy, not he, was to take the rap.

I agree totally!

 

[Ames]

and things like getting his own set of lawyers didn't hurt,either!
due to some items PP took in her raid of the house (passports,mementos,etc.),I really think they had plans to leave the country,or were at least seriously considering it.

I agree. What in the world would they need their passports for...at a time like that, anyway? Their daughter had just been found murdered. Passports? Nope, that's not the first thing that would pop into my mind to grab. Baby teeth...yes. Passports...no. Unless of course...I was planning on leaving the country.

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi Rashomon.

Very interesting post re "catastrophic" injury.

The divet in JBR's head.
Depressed skull fracture: http://books.google.ca/books?id=NYt...5-2RAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result



Persistent bleeding: Bleeding from the scalp is always profuse because of the rich blood supply......


Depressed skull fracture.... These fractures usually result when the child head hits the edge of a table or is hit by an object that has a sharp edge.
Before swelling occurs the parent may notice a large dent or depression in the skull. Because the depressed bone fragment can cause a local seizure or neurological defecit, the depressed part of the skull needs to be surgically elevated.