Were there floor jacks in the Ramsey basement?

[Sophie]

When John was interviewed....he said that he didn't even notice the "twister" when he brought her up the stairs, from the basement. I thought that it was extremely weird that he would referred to the cord as a "twister". How did HE know the slang word for a garotte?

That twister comment gave me a chill up me spine!

 

[Sophie]

LOL...good question. I didn't even notice that part of the post.

Not to mention that the "druggie", possibly high at the time...most likely had never even been in the Ramsey's home before. The house was dark, JAR himself, said that the house was like a maze. Patsy herself said that the basement was a mess, with old furniture piled up down there. Oh BUT...this druggie, high at the time, manuvered around this dark crowded maze, without making a sound? The Ramsey's are the only people that would have been able to do that.

That made me LOL.When you put it in those terms, it is almost inconceivable that anyone outside the family was involved.

 

[RiverRat]

I have huge doubts that Patsy was alcohol influenced.....just being her "normal" chemically altered self.

 

[JMO8778]

When John was interviewed....he said that he didn't even notice the "twister" when he brought her up the stairs, from the basement. I thought that it was extremely weird that he would referred to the cord as a "twister". How did HE know the slang word for a garotte?

that was likely from his time in the Philippines,right? where they have used garrotes/twisters?

 

[Ames]

That made me LOL.When you put it in those terms, it is almost inconceivable that anyone outside the family was involved.

Yes, isn't it though.

 

[Ames]

I have huge doubts that Patsy was alcohol influenced.....just being her "normal" chemically altered self.

I do not believe that Patsy was drunk, but she did admit to having some drinks at the Whites...she says two. She lies....so it's probably more like three or four. Couple those with the the probability that she probably had taken some pills...like Xanax for example...and she probably had quite a little buzz going on. I am NOT saying that she was taking pills...I do not know that for a fact...but, I do know that she had a little drinky or two or three....

 

[Ames]

that was likely from his time in the Philippines,right? where they have used garrotes/twisters?

That would be my guess. I mean, I don't think that the average person would even know that a twister, was slang for garotte. I sure didn't know it, until I read John's interview. He was "very informative".

 

[DeeDee249]

JR's use of that slang expression (twister) was always odd to me. NO one here would use that word, and he was familiar with it because of his previous experience in the Phillippines. It rolled off his tongue pretty easily, IMO.
I know the coroner cut the cord from her neck, marking where he made the cuts. Other than Smit's silly description of the garrot as "expertly" made, I haven't seen where they had a REAL expert identify the cord. Most who did examine it said it wasn't a true garrote, and didn't function that way because of the knots.

 

[JMO8778]

sounds like the idea for a garotte may have been all JR' idea(?)
the neck marks had to be covered for somehow..even though it was a feeble attempt,and Dr Spitz was still able to tell she was strangled by her shirt collar first.

 

[rashomon]

sounds like the idea for a garotte may have been all JR' idea(?)

Possibly, but the evidence indicates it was Patsy who fashioned the so-called 'garrote' and tied the neck knot, for her jacket fibers were found in the wrappings of the broken paintbrush stick and in the paint tray.
As for John using the slang expression 'twister' for this amateurishly constructed thing - it could indicate that he hadn't even taken a closer look at it, for it was no twisting device. It looked almost childish, like a kid playing around with some string to pull something.
The idea of pulling suggested in the stage prop "handle" in turn is in contradiction to the tied knot on the neck.
These basic technical mistakes the offender made with the prop indicate staging imo. The handle was never pulled, but was fashioned for the sole purpose of creating a bizarre-looking "killing tool".

 

[rashomon]

I do not believe that Patsy was drunk, but she did admit to having some drinks at the Whites...she says two. She lies....so it's probably more like three or four. Couple those with the the probability that she probably had taken some pills...like Xanax for example...and she probably had quite a little buzz going on. I am NOT saying that she was taking pills...I do not know that for a fact...but, I do know that she had a little drinky or two or three....

If memory serves, Patsy said they also had cocktails before dinner. So that would be one or even two cocktails plus two or more glasses of wine.

According LHP, Patsy was by no means the near-teetotaller as she presented herself in the interviews. LHP said Patsy liked her Chardonnay and always kept a bottle ready in the fridge.
Patsy said the chemo affected her liver so she had to be careful with alcohol. It that case, I think she would have felt the effect of alcohol more that a person with non-damaged liver.

 

[Maikai]

So you're saying that Patsy couldn't have "lurked around" her own house in the dark, doing everything that was done undetected, and yet a "druggie, possibly high at the time" could?

The neighborhood is very dark---there would be no reason for Patsy to lurk around in the house with the lights off.

The perp came somewhat prepared for a crime of some sort, so probably had a flashlight (unknown if it was his on the countertop).

Patsy did not have the criminal wherewithall to write the ransom note, or do any type of staging...not to mention the force it took for the blow to the head, and knowledge of garotting. You have to know these things to do it.

 

[Maikai]

I have seen them.



Like I said, an instance (among several) where he just made up his own evidence regardless of facts. Not too long ago, I came across a quote of Smit's where he admits that he never spoke to the pathologists, Werner Spitz in particular.
Now that I think of it, he very rarely spoke to anyone who disagreed with him who had a fair amount of experience. Sure, he played the BPD and DA for suckers, but never seemed to take on anyone who might actually know what they were talking about. Mm, mm, mm.



That's another instance (the biggest one, IMO) where Smit just made stuff up. And I can prove it.


.

Unlike the BPD, who only used selective so-called experts to support their theory that Patsy did it, Lou Smit methodically researched the evidence, using un-biased experts. One was Arapahoe County Coroner Michael Doberson, who conducted experiments on anesthetized pigs and compared the marks to photographs of another stun gun victim killed in a homicide. Smit was present during the experiments. Dobersen should know--in another murder case (Boggs), he didn't notice the stun gun marks. It was only after a stun gun was found in a suspect's car, and the body exhumed, that they could prove the "abrasions" were in fact the stun gun found. It was the piece of evidence the jury needed to convict the perp, as there was very little other evidence.

Dobersen said he was convinced with a high degree of medical certainty that the marks on JBR's face and back were from a stun gun. Further research by Lou Smit suggested it was a Taser.

 

[rashomon]

The neighborhood is very dark---there would be no reason for Patsy to lurk around in the house with the lights off.

The perp came somewhat prepared for a crime of some sort, so probably had a flashlight (unknown if it was his on the countertop).

Patsy did not have the criminal wherewithall to write the ransom note, or do any type of staging...not to mention the force it took for the blow to the head, and knowledge of garotting. You have to know these things to do it.

No special knowledge was needed to tie that simple knot around the neck. A shoelace bow is more complicated than what was found at the crime scene. Prosecutor Michael Kane himself pointed out that LE's own knot expert had concluded the crime scene knots were very simple knots.
Also, this was no garrote. Garrotes don't have knots.

As for the flashlight, it most likely came from the Ramsey home. It was kept in an unusual place: in a drawer of the wet bar area near the bottom of the spiral staircase. Patsy was shown a crime scene picture of the open and empty drawer, and theorized that the intruder must have known where their flashlight was kept. This was of course another callous attempt on Patsy's part to throw an insider under the bus, like e.g. the housekeeper LHP.

 

[Roy23]

No special knowledge was needed to tie that simple knot around the neck. A shoelace bow is more complicated than what was found at the crime scene. Prosecutor Michael Kane himself pointed out that LE's own knot expert had concluded the crime scene knots were very simple knots.
Also, this was no garrote. Garrotes don't have knots.

As for the flashlight, it most likely came from the Ramsey home. It was kept in an unusual place: in a drawer of the wet bar area near the bottom of the spiral staircase. Patsy was shown a crime scene picture of the open and empty drawer, and theorized that the intruder must have known where their flashlight was kept. This was of course another callous attempt on Patsy's part to throw an insider under the bus, like e.g. the housekeeper LHP.

I have to disagree with this too. The lack of blood tells a story here. It would be virtually impossible for it to be their flashlight and find almost no trace of blood. I believe she was dead or near dead from strangulation before the powerful blow to the head was made. And the object that did it was no longer in the house.

 

[Roy23]

The neighborhood is very dark---there would be no reason for Patsy to lurk around in the house with the lights off.

The perp came somewhat prepared for a crime of some sort, so probably had a flashlight (unknown if it was his on the countertop).

Patsy did not have the criminal wherewithall to write the ransom note, or do any type of staging...not to mention the force it took for the blow to the head, and knowledge of garotting. You have to know these things to do it.

I am glad to see some common sense here.

 

[BBB167893]

that was likely from his time in the Philippines,right? where they have used garrotes/twisters?

Possibly. Not only do they have garrotes in that part of the world (and certainly did during that time, because it was during the anti-Marcos uprising), but the Filipino language is influenced by Spanish.

 

[BBB167893]

The neighborhood is very dark---there would be no reason for Patsy to lurk around in the house with the lights off.

No reason to you, maybe. But within each human skull is a little world all its own.

Patsy did not have the criminal wherewithall to write the ransom note, or do any type of staging...

Based on WHAT? "Criminal werewithall..." balderdash. ASSUMING of course she did it alone!

not to mention the force it took for the blow to the head, and knowledge of garotting. You have to know these things to do it.

Yes, you do have to know these things, and the killer didn't. Amateur night; you could tell. And many did.

Unlike the BPD, who only used selective so-called experts to support their theory that Patsy did it,

Come on, Maikai, don't talk nonsense. I've got better things to do.

Lou Smit methodically researched the evidence, using un-biased experts.

That's a laugh, on all counts.

One was Arapahoe County Coroner Michael Doberson, who conducted experiments on anesthetized pigs and compared the marks to photographs of another stun gun victim killed in a homicide. Smit was present during the experiments. Dobersen should know--in another murder case (Boggs), he didn't notice the stun gun marks. It was only after a stun gun was found in a suspect's car, and the body exhumed, that they could prove the "abrasions" were in fact the stun gun found. It was the piece of evidence the jury needed to convict the perp, as there was very little other evidence.

Dobersen said he was convinced with a high degree of medical certainty that the marks on JBR's face and back were from a stun gun. Further research by Lou Smit suggested it was a Taser.

I've been at this WAY too long to fall for THAT one, Maikai. In fact, here's what I had to say about it in chapter 8:

For those of you who don't know, a stun gun is a non-lethal self-defense weapon that uses an electrical charge to bring down an attacker. It's thought of as more effective than pepper spray. It works by focusing a low-wattage, high-voltage charge into a person's body. causing their muscles to overwork and shut down. In this way, it leaves no permanent damage. Smit thinks it knocked JonBenet out long enough to take her from her bed. This is the most notable instance of several where Smit just made up evidence out of whole cloth. Firstly, as someone who owns a stun gun, I can tell you it does not render a person unconscious. It's not made for it. It's also a highly impractical weapon for this kind of crime, because it makes a lot of noise and causes the person to scream when zapped.
One of the "prong" marks is not even properly aligned. By that, I mean provided you could get a subject to hold still long enough to put only two marks on them, as Smit did with the sedated pig, they would run parallel to each other in every respect. One of the marks is tilted to the left.
Smit failed to listen to the forensic pathologists who discussed the stun gun. One of them was Dr. Werner Spitz. In 2002, Spitz agreed with the autopsy report, which described these marks as scratches (abrasions), not burns. Instead, Smit shopped experts until he found one who agreed with him. First he contacted Robert Stratbucker, who is generally acknowledged as the leading authority on stun guns. Stratbucker said in 2001 that he wrote back to Smit telling him that he was wrong. "I guess that wasn't what he wanted to hear," Stratbucker commented, "because I never heard from him again." Finally, Smit came across Arapaho County coroner Michael Doberson, who can be relied on to agree with anything Smit says. Doberson agreed with him, saying, "My experiments, and the observations that we made and all the work that's been done, I feel that I can testify to a reasonably degree of medical certainty that these are stun gun injuries."
Trouble is, he'd already said he couldn't agree: "You really can't tell from a photo," Doberson said in 1998. Doberson's expertise stems from a case where a stun gun was used. Gerald Boggs was murdered in the area. The body of Gerald Boggs was exhumed after it had been buried for 8 months by the infamous Dr. Doberson. It was then proven that a stun gun was used on him which helped convict his ex-wife and her lover of Boggs' murder. A stun gun which matched the marks just below Boggs' ear was found in his ex-wife's car. The problem was, the photos of the marks taken after he was exhumed don't match the marks on him when he was fresh. As you can see, the marks are bright red and erratic, just like they were on me when I was zapped. Doberson can't even tell the real thing. In 2001, Smit and Doberson stun gunned some pigs to try and reproduce the marks on JonBenet. They couldn't do it. They always got bright pink marks, not the dirty brownish ones on JonBenet. Worse, Smit claimed that the blue line between the marks on JonBenet's body were caused by the bluish electrical arc between the prongs. Not only is this laughable, he couldn't even reproduce the blue mark on the pigs. It should be noted that the pigs were highly sedated when zapped, not fighting like someone alive would be. JonBenet's body should have looked like Boggs: like a fire-ant attack. Steven Tuttle, an executive for Air Taser, said this: "We have never seen those types of marks when you touch somebody with a stun gun," he said. "We are talking hundreds of people that have been touched with these devices. I can't replicate those marks." He also said the Air Taser does not render people unconscious and zapped himself on camera to prove it. In 2006, Tom Wickman was interviewed, saying that they had eliminated the possibility of a stun gun. In 2002, Werner Spitz went public on his findings on the marks, saying that they were most likely caused by a snap on an article of clothing. When he says a snap, he means those little metal buttons.
Perhaps Patsy Ramsey herself can shed some light on the subject:
TOM HANEY: Okay. Anything else on the bed?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this looks like a little -- the little pot holder square she was making. This multicolored thing here. This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh, that's sort of looks like it might be the little velvet dress (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.
TRIP DeMUTH: When did she last wear that?
PATSY RAMSEY: She wore that to the Whites on the 25th.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The evening of the 25th?
Shockingly, this instance of creating evidence that does not exist is not the worst breach of ethics committed by Smit.

Sometimes I feel like a real camel's hump about this case. This time isn't one of them.

 

[BBB167893]

I have to disagree with this too. The lack of blood tells a story here. It would be virtually impossible for it to be their flashlight and find almost no trace of blood. I believe she was dead or near dead from strangulation before the powerful blow to the head was made. And the object that did it was no longer in the house.

Trouble with that, Roy, is that the great majority of pathologists say she'd been hit quite a while before she was strangled. Not amateurs, either. That's not an attack, either. Just an explanation for why I believe the way I do.

And before anyone says that I'm too trusting of expert opinion, as has been done in the past, let me remind everyone that I have more wisdom in these matters then some may wish to give me credit for, not to mention endurance.

Roy, I have tremendous respect for you. You know that. But you'll have to explain to me how "It would be virtually impossible for it to be their flashlight and find almost no trace of blood."

 

[Roy23]

Trouble with that, Roy, is that the great majority of pathologists say she'd been hit quite a while before she was strangled. Not amateurs, either. That's not an attack, either. Just an explanation for why I believe the way I do.

And before anyone says that I'm too trusting of expert opinion, as has been done in the past, let me remind everyone that I have more wisdom in these matters then some may wish to give me credit for, not to mention endurance.

Roy, I have tremendous respect for you. You know that. But you'll have to explain to me how "It would be virtually impossible for it to be their flashlight and find almost no trace of blood."

I also have wisdom in these matters. No matter in what part of the house that Jon Benet was hit, the type of injury she sustained would have bled so profusely that it would have been virtually impossible to clean. Thus, I conclude she was dead or on the verge of death upon this blow. And for those who want to argue that only JB sheets were stained and then cleaned, keep in mind that Mr. Thomas has stated that the sheets were wet and contained creatine.