What Do the Bodies Tell Us?

[Userid]

Not necessarily for show, but to ensure drowning. It was a fail-safe.

 

[Justiceseeker35]

Not necessarily for show, but to ensure drowning. It was a fail-safe.

but that child already passed away so has to be just consistency

 

[carillion]

**poking toes in to test the water again** After reading and rereading and rereading the autopsy reports, I believe that CB, while fatally wounded and almost deceased at that time, was most likely experiencing stridor breathing when he was put into that ditch. His lungs did show slight amounts of blood and frothy fluid Also, terminal aspiration was listed as one of his multiple causes of death. It was noted that he did have slight amounts of vomitus in upper and lower airways, but generally speaking, a slight amount isn't enough to cause terminal aspiration. The autopsy report itself was very vague when it came to defining terminal aspiration though, so I could be way off base. But being in stridor, which is seen in head injuries, could explain why the report is so vague.

 

[carillion]

I know I am overlooking it, but what was the strand of "fabric-like" material in MJM's hand linked to?

 

[Userid]

but that child already passed away so has to be just consistency

The killer most likely knew that CB was deceased, but wanted to make sure.

There would be no other point in tying each victim up, unless you think this was a ritualistic killing -- which I don't.

 

[carillion]

unless you think this was a ritualistic killing -- which I don't.

I have studied a lot of Wiccan texts, as well as texts of ceremonial witchcraft, and I have never seen this type of binding used, so I am with you. Whatever it is, I don't think it is ritual based. Lunatic based, yes, but that's a totally different story.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I know I am overlooking it, but what was the strand of "fabric-like" material in MJM's hand linked to?

I don't think it's been definitively determined. Some thought it was the "cloth bracelet," but I don't think that was it. Check out Reply #6 at this link.

 

[Justiceseeker35]

I don't think it's been definitively determined. Some thought it was the "cloth bracelet," but I don't think that was it. Check out Reply #6 at this link.

Here's terrible thought and I may be too morbid here but there was a rumor and I don't know if it was fact that there was a shoe impression on the back of SB head. It was postulated that he tried to save himself or struggle from the drowning then maybe pushed back in with the killers foot. What if CB was not passed yet and was placed in the water and almost got up with the less secure binding and was given a finishing blow to the back of the head with the blunt object. That might explain some water in the lungs but not drowning cod.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Here's terrible thought and I may be too morbid here but there was a rumor and I don't know if it was fact that there was a shoe impression on the back of SB head. It was postulated that he tried to save himself or struggle from the drowning then maybe pushed back in with the killers foot. What if CB was not passed yet and was placed in the water and almost got up with the less secure binding and was given a finishing blow to the back of the head with the blunt object. That might explain some water in the lungs but not drowning cod.

So many thoughts about this case are morbid! Yes, I have read that there was a shoe impression on the back of SB's head. I believe that it occurred when the killer stomped down on the back of his head in order to fully submerge him into the discovery ditch. As to CB, I tend to believe the previous theory put forth by a poster that it was caused by the "death rattle" breathing at the TOD.

 

[Ausgirl]

.

There would be no other point in tying each victim up, unless you think this was a ritualistic killing -- which I don't.

Compactness, making sure the limbs didn't float.. other possible reasons, there. But deffo not ritual, though, 100% agree on that.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Even if the transport was for a short distance (which I believe to be the case), tying all limbs would aid in transport. Although transport could have been achieved without tying all limbs, I still believe that the tying was for transport. However, I don't see it as a "sticking point" that would disprove my theory.

 

[carillion]

I didn't want to derail another thread so I am moving out to this one. There was no core temperature taken off the bodies, no ambient water temperature recorded, contradiction in the state of lividity (fixed with blanching??? If it blanches, it isn't fixed.) and disparity between Hale and Piretti about state of rigor. I suppose incompetence is across the board in West Memphis, from police to coroner, to whatever title Lisa S. holds (it's too early for me to try and spell her last name). If the bodies don't tell us anything else, they tell us that.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

This may have been discussed already. If so, I apologize. However, one thing about the bodies was the presence of "secondary" lividity. There was lividity on both the front and back of the bodies. Would one or two hours be enough time to cause a second lividity pattern to form? The bodies were found face down (which would cause lividity on the front) and were placed on either the back or the side when recovered (which would cause lividity on the back or opposite side). However, if one or two hours (the time after recovery until Hale wrote his report) isn't enough time to cause lividity, then the "secondary" lividity (or, if you wish "dual" lividity) would be an indication that the bodies had been moved.

 

[carillion]

Liver mortis can begin showing within 2 hours for up to 24 hours. The simplest "guesstimate"
Method is by assessing the color. Lividity starts generally as a reddish color and the longer it "fixes" the more it tends to darken towards purple. Lividity alone is a bad way to assign TOD, but it does seem they relied pretty heavily on it in this case, doesn't it?

 

[Ausgirl]

This may have been discussed already. If so, I apologize. However, one thing about the bodies was the presence of "secondary" lividity. There was lividity on both the front and back of the bodies. Would one or two hours be enough time to cause a second lividity pattern to form? The bodies were found face down (which would cause lividity on the front) and were placed on either the back or the side when recovered (which would cause lividity on the back or opposite side). However, if one or two hours (the time after recovery until Hale wrote his report) isn't enough time to cause lividity, then the "secondary" lividity (or, if you wish "dual" lividity) would be an indication that the bodies had been moved.

You'd expect to see secondary lividity if the bodies were moved at some time prior to 6 hours after death, which is approximately when lividity becomes "fixed" and will no longer shift if the body is moved. Lividity can begin 30 mins- 1 hr after death.

I have been looking at lividity in some crime scene photos, and hope to make some comments about that when I have time (doing a timeline for the Jenny Cook case this weekend, so maybe early next week) - I think I saw some interesting things.

 

[carillion]

Interesting to note that if the secondary lividity is, in fact, from the move onto the bank, that could move the TOD up to early morning. As I said, establishing TOD by lividity alone is bad form, but it does play he'll with the timeline theory of death on the 5th and discovery in the afternoon of the 6th.

Now here's a random thought to REALLY boggle your mind. The knots were only consistent on one of the boys. What if, in a single killer theory, he had that one boy tie up the other 2, which would explain the difference in the knots, and that left only one boy for the killer to actually tie up. That could be a plausible explanation for the varied loose knotting. Just a thought.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

You'd expect to see secondary lividity if the bodies were moved at some time prior to 6 hours after death, which is approximately when lividity becomes "fixed" and will no longer shift if the body is moved. Lividity can begin 30 mins- 1 hr after death.

Not to beat a dead horse, but, if the initial attack were at around 7:00 - 7:30 pm on May 5th and the boys were left in a manhole or drain pipe (where CB actually died, but very shortly before the move) and then the "bodies" were moved at around 3:00 - 5:00 am on May 6th, the move to the bank wouldn't have caused the lividity pattern. So, what if the deaths actually occurred in the manhole/drain pipe? In either of these locations, water could have risen during the overnight hours. SB and MM would have drowned, being unconscious, and CB would have been dead from exsanguination. They were on their backs (in my theory) in this first location, and the lividity from that positioning would become fixed around six hours after death. So, if the attack was at 7:00 - 7:30 pm on May 5th, with death coming between maybe 10:00 pm and midnight, and the killers moved the bodies at around 3:00 - 5:00 am on May 6th, the move could have caused the frontal lividity while the positioning in the manhole/drain pipe could have caused the posterior lividity, right?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Sorry, but this article says that lividity can begin within 30 minutes of death and can be affected for six hours, as Ausgirl stated. Here is the quote:

It is worth noting that lividity begins to work through the deceased within thirty minutes of their heart stopping and can last up to twelve hours. Only up to the first six hours of death can lividity be altered by moving the body. After the six hour mark lividity is fixed as blood vessels begin to break down within the body.

So, if lividity wasn't fixed when Hale examined the bodies (at approx 3:30 pm on May 6th, IIRC), death would have had to occur no earlier than 9:30 am on May 6th. If Hale's information is accurate, we have a whole different set of possibilities. Personally, I believe lividity was fixed when he examined the bodies and he was just another in a long line of incompetents in the wmpd/crime lab personnel. However, this does bring up some major questions!

The presence of secondary lividity would be an indication that the bodies were moved. The move to the bank could only have caused that secondary lividity if the deaths were between the hours of 9:30 am and 1:30 pm on May 6th, which I don't see as possible - unless the killer is someone unsuspected. So, working from the assumption that the secondary lividity was caused by the move from the place of death to the discovery site, as I said in my earlier post, the TOD would be in the 10 pm to midnight range on May 5th with movement to the discovery ditch sometime on May 6th between the hours of 4 am and 6 am.

 

[Ausgirl]

Well, the killer - after doing any number of things in whatever sequence, for whatever motive - appears to have returned anywhere from 30 mins - 6hrs after the boys were all dead and moved the bodies from one angle to another. That much, I think I am willing to count on as fairly hardcore fact, at this point.

I recall doing research a long time ago now, on how submersion might affect lividity, among other things. I'll see if I can dig that up when I'm done with this timeline thing.

 

[Ausgirl]

Here's an interesting thing, while I'm here... and talking of lividity.

One of the traits of lividity is "blanching", which is where an area is left bloodless due to elevation or pressure placed on it (shifting the blood out of the area). So a guy who passes away on his back will have blanching where, perhaps, his shoulders and buttocks touch the ground, and the pressure of his own weight forces the pooling blood to leave those areas.

Now, one of the things that can cause blanching is tight clothing. And as I was staring at crime scene photos the other day, I could *swear* one of the bodies had blanching on the rear end, in a pattern that strongly resembled a pair of jockey shorts that he'd maybe outgrown a little bit. Ie, the blanching wasn't just on his buttocks, but at the sides as well, following the general shape of a pair of undies. Which said to me -- if this is at all possible and I am not just seeing inkblots (I hate when I do that....) then there's a chance one or more of the boys was clothed when they died. And stayed clothed, for 30 mins - 6hrs afterwards.

Okay, not a major revelation, but small discoveries add up, eh. But yeah, will be doing more staring in a few days, and am quite happy to be wrong if I am.