What if another parent from Skyline abducted Kyron?

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My initial belief was that he was taken on foot away from the school, but either an older student or an adult. I still believe this is a possibility.

If an older student is resposible and killed Kyron in the process, I think they could have had help from older friends or parents to hide/dispose of him.
 
I'm stuck on the timeline, myself, and everything LE has said. Zimmerman last saw K and TH at 8:15. TH said she left K at 8:45. The early bell rang at 8:35 and the final bell at 8:45. Zimmerman was the last school "official"/employee/verified adult to see K.

Now, there would only be so many kids and parents there between 8:15 and 8:45. Not every family has one stay-at-home parent or one able to go into work late (or both). I'm sure LE has interviewed each and every kid and parent that was there between those times. There is a good timeline of statements here --- http://www.kptv.com/kyron-horman/index.html
 
I think we should all keep in mind that it COULD have been somebody OTHER THAN TH.......

I wonder if there were any older children missing from school that day?

I wonder if anyone attending, recalls seeing someone they'd NEVER seen before?

I wonder if anyone saw someone there that they KNEW had no children and they just thought they were there, because in many of these smaller rural areas, school activities are the MAIN activity of those in the areas?

I know when we lived in a small rural town, anything the school had was attended by just about EVERYBODY around.

JMHO
fran
 
We know that other parents have been questioned. We know some families have been questioned multiple times. We also know that families have been asked to turn over copies of photographs taken that day. It seems that LE has worked hard to keep everyone quiet because that's the way to uncover inconsistencies in the perp's story. If there are other adults who have inconsistencies in their stories, cellphone pings, alibis etc, then I'm sure LE would be (and are) following up on that.

On what grounds would LE have gotten a subpoena to check the cell phone records of every adult present in the school that morning? I'm not a lawyer but it would seem to me that it would require more than just being present in the school that day.

And how much effort did LE put into checking out stories? Look at the amount of effort that seems to be going into checking one particular woman's story; I just don't think that they have enough manpower to do any real checking of the stories of anyone at the school who presents well and has no other apparent connection to Kyron.

I believe at this point, everyone else known to have been at the school that day has come up clean. Could they have overlooked something? Maybe, but I doubt they have utterly abandoned any possibilities that are anything less than water tight. They may not be talking about it, but I'm confident they are checking into anything like that. The way other information has been leaking to the media makes me believe that, at least right now, there is only one plausible direction for the investigation to go, and that's pointing right at Terri. Media are bloodhounds when it comes to sniffing out stuff like that. If they caught wind of some else with a wobbly story, we'd know about it.

My concern is that LE generally starts at the innermost circle of connections to the child and works outward. As an organisational principle, it's pretty good. An investigation has to have some sort of overall pattern or else it just flies off in too many directions to be effective.

But the drawback to that method is if someone in that inner circle is factually innocent and cannot establish a good alibi. Then there is a chance of investigative tunnel vision.

That can happen at startlingly high levels. That is essentially what happened with the FBI in the Steven Hatfill case.

Dr Hatfill was instructed by his employer to write a paper in 1999 about ways in which micro-powdered anthrax spores could be used against the US population. Being an intelligent man who was also a hard worker, he wrote a paper that was extremely good and included quite a bit of really detailed information, like how many grams of anthrax spores could be placed in an ordinary first rate postal envelope without being easily detected (just less than 2.4g, as it happens).

The FBI didn't stop to consider for many years that anyone who had access to that paper would also then have the same knowledge.

Dr Hatfill obviously had the knowledge; he also had access. An examination of the records of his lab revealed <<gasp>> holes and gaps in the paperwork trail. The FBI didn't discover for many years that every single lab in the place had very similar holes and gaps.

Some fellow scientists, when asked about Dr Hatfill, expressed reservations about his character. One person went on a public campaign that was a thinly disguised accusation of Dr Hatfill.

And it just went on and on. Dr Hatfill was unable to establish his own innocence because it is impossible to prove a negative.

Now the FBI has accused a different man, Bruce Ivins. Unfortunately, he has committed suicide. While that may be a tacit admission of guilt, I know I am not alone in wondering if he was really the perpetrator or not. There are certainly big, obvious holes in the case against Ivins.

There is a good probability that LE in this case is pointed at the correct party (TMH). But there's good precedent for healthy scepticism as well.
 
I think we should all keep in mind that it COULD have been somebody OTHER THAN TH.......

I wonder if there were any older children missing from school that day?

I wonder if anyone attending, recalls seeing someone they'd NEVER seen before?

I wonder if anyone saw someone there that they KNEW had no children and they just thought they were there, because in many of these smaller rural areas, school activities are the MAIN activity of those in the areas?

I know when we lived in a small rural town, anything the school had was attended by just about EVERYBODY around.

JMHO
fran

This is barely on the outskirts of Portland--not a small rural town. Believe me, there are PLENTY of interesting things to do in the area besides attend an IB exhibit at a tiny school in the area when you don't have kids that attend the school. There are over 2 million people who live in the greater Portland metro area. We need to get away from the idea that this is anything close to a "small town." Downtown Portland is only about 15-20 minutes away.
 
I don't want to be accused of rumor-spreading, so I'll phrase this as a question. Please don't take it and run with it unless you've seen something to back it up. Has anyone here seen anything SOLID/MSM about a school employee who hasn't been seen since the day Kyron went missing? The reason I asked is that someone mentioned it in the comment area of an Examiner article, and pointed at the Oregonian as the source, and I could not find any reference to that anywhere at the Oregonian. For all I know they could have been referring to the Oregonian's comment area, which has obviously been infiltrated and is filled with bizarre controversy. I didn't check there, for that reason.
 
It could have been another parent. But it could have been anyone. *shrug* Another parent, another student's aunt/uncle/grandpa/older sibling, a teacher, a board of ed worker, a repair person, the Fed Ex guy, the UPS woman, or just about anyone who could have and was at the school that morning. Of course, at this point, we know that anyone is possible, but logically speaking, we know that they are not probable. Big difference between who "possibly" took Kyron and who "probably" took Kyron.

I dunno who took him, but I will say this: I firmly believe that whoever took Kyron knew that there were NO security cameras in the school.
 
What do you mean how his bag remained in the classroom? If he went into the classroom and dropped his stuff off and then ran around looking at science fair projects the bag would have remained in the class. If he was abducted during this period the bag would have still been there.
snipped.

I guess what I mean is, Kyron had to have made it to the classroom at some point. Probably right when they got there - Terri had him go up and drop his stuff off, before looking at the exhibits. Good deal. Terri then leaves at 8:45, and Kyron goes back into the room, gets into the group, they go tour, and then tells his buddy that he's gonna go take a looksee at the electric exhibit, and is not seen again. Or is seen, by the older student, in the gym later on that morning (perhaps looking at the electric exhibit).

The teacher never noticed that Kyron did not return from either the group tour or his run down to the electric one by himself. She knows he wasn't there at a certain point, because she says "he's getting water or using the bathroom" (not exact quote), but for the rest of the day, doesn't realize he's both NOT in the classroom, AND his bag/jacket are left there.

It seems to me that if I have a bag and jacket from someone who is not in the room remaining in the room - through nutrition break/morning recess, lunch, and all the way through the end of the day...well...something is pretty off.

I have had a hard time with Terri being the focus for a while. I find it more than plausible that a S/O in the area knew that there was going to be a science fair; knew that kids would be there unattended; and took the opportunity to snatch Kyron. It wouldn't be hard to do, I don't think...and there was plenty of opportunity for that to happen.

That's what I mean by the bag - it was a screaming alarm but not one person other than the child noticed Kyron was gone. And that is a shame, pure and simple. Just a crying shame.

Best-
Herding Cats
 
Oh I see what you mean. And you know along those lines, what about the substitute that just blew off the fact that Kyron was in the bathroom. Why would she say such a thing if she didn't know where he was?

Sometimes I also think that this turn against Terri is a ploy to make the perp relax his or her guard thinking that they've gotten away with it.
 
Well if it was another parent from the school, that hardly bodes well for Kyron as where on earth would a parent with other children keep Kyron hidden, I can't imagine.
 
The other thing I was thinking is what Kat010 pointed out. Most of us would think trying to abduct a child is pretty risky business. But all a perp needs is a gullible cooperative child and a few seconds. He wouldn't even need to subdue the child with cholorform if he or she had a van.

SBM & BBM

I totally agree with your overall point, which is that under the conditions in the school on that morning, grabbing one kid would not have been highly risky. Yes, it would take a lot of boldness in assessing risks but to me, it's a bit like bungee jumping. Looks far riskier than it actually is.

The bolded statement made me wonder, though: just how available is chloroform these days? My impression is that it is still available in third world countries but not easily available in the US.

I really am not seeing things that are pointing to TH by this point having something to do with his disappearance alone. I do think we ought to consider other possibilites.

That's the problem with this case from the public point of view: the little actually confirmed by LE does not support any conclusions.

If I add in the stuff widely reported (like the cell phone pings) then the case against TMH becomes much stronger. The MFH plot is highly suggestive but with nothing known about the witness and his credibility, difficult to judge (I am actually more convinced that TMH is responsible for Kyron's disappearance than I am about the MFH plot at this point).

The behavioural analysis that is going on is certainly suggestive... but without proof of a crime, it isn't enough to prove that a person is a crass, insensitive, self-centred, lying jerk because there are thousands of such suspects within a 20 mile radius of the school!

Yes, she apparently allowed or sent her older son to live elsewhere. Yes, she has apparently walked away from her baby. But if that were enough to convict someone, there are literally millions of USAn men who would also be imprisoned. And probably thousands of other women who have done essentially the same thing.
 
She knows he wasn't there at a certain point, because she says "he's getting water or using the bathroom" (not exact quote), but for the rest of the day, doesn't realize he's both NOT in the classroom, AND his bag/jacket are left there.

RSBM and BBM

Don't kids have assigned desks? I mean, it would be possible to not notice someone was missing if they all sat in a different seat each day all over the room, but if the kids have regular assigned seats then it would be glaringly obvious if one were missing.

Anyway, I think the teacher DID know he wasn't there for classes because IIRC she marked him absent.
 
Sure would cost the school if it was a stranger abduction and they let all those kids back in there that Monday.What were they basing it wasn't a stranger abduction on,a weekend investigation with no sign of Kyron?

SBM

I think it was a very low risk move to re-open the school the following Monday and the benefits were probably huge in terms of mental health for the other kids. Even though they did not know exactly what happened to Kyron.

I am certain that the safest, most secure school in the USA 7 June 2010 was Skyline School. They had extra adults on the premises to help the children deal with Kyron's disappearance and also act as extra eyes. Every adult present and most of the older kids was primed and ready to spot any suspicious behaviour.

They no doubt had LE both inside the school and on the grounds around it, both looking for evidence and keeping an eye on activity around the school. They had literally hundreds of LE personnel surrounding the area of the school, all looking for the least trace of suspicious activity.

At what point would I become concerned had I a hypothetical kid who might attend the school? Probably in about five years' time, when everyone has had a chance to calm down, relax and the memory of Kyron's disappearance has begun to dim. Particularly if there is a significant change of school staff or administration. There will be a tendency to relax vigilance.

But it won't happen for at least a couple years.
 
As far as I am thinking, it could be anyone for any reason. Male or female, pedophile (yes women can be too) or not, someone wanting a child. Kyron is bright, quiet, listens. If you wanted a child for any reason, maybe you just want a child, not necessarily really bad (but I doubt it), Kyron was easy to locate. Easy to figure out where he was, what his outgoing family does from minute to minute, 2 months tops of stalking and you have Kyron. Why no one thought about the internet connectivity to weirdos given the different jobs of 4, I just don't know. Sometimes, children are just a must to people, not a living child. Just saying.

If it was a parent or a stranger at Skyline I believe it was a crime of opportunity.

If it was somebody who had stalked Kyron for a while I believe they would have found it easier to abduct him at home when he's playing outside. It's so secluded that if the parents aren't looking nobody is.
 
This is barely on the outskirts of Portland--not a small rural town. Believe me, there are PLENTY of interesting things to do in the area besides attend an IB exhibit at a tiny school in the area when you don't have kids that attend the school. There are over 2 million people who live in the greater Portland metro area. We need to get away from the idea that this is anything close to a "small town." Downtown Portland is only about 15-20 minutes away.

:clap::applause::clap::applause:

JMOHO
 
I just don't think that they have enough manpower to do any real checking of the stories of anyone at the school who presents well and has no other apparent connection to Kyron.

* * * *

My concern is that LE generally starts at the innermost circle of connections to the child and works outward. As an organisational principle, it's pretty good. An investigation has to have some sort of overall pattern or else it just flies off in too many directions to be effective.

But the drawback to that method is if someone in that inner circle is factually innocent and cannot establish a good alibi. Then there is a chance of investigative tunnel vision.

That can happen at startlingly high levels. That is essentially what happened with the FBI in the Steven Hatfill case.

Great points, GrannieDhu. LE could not have subpeoned cell records of everyone known to be at the Science Fair. A judge won't issue a subpeona as a fishing expedition. LE has to meet the legal threshold for a subpeona to be issued. So if someone has a reasonable account of what they were doing at the school, seems believable, has no known connection to Kyron, LE has to move on. They wouldn't have a reason or the resources to investigate that person further at that time. If the investigation uncovers something that contradicts what the person told them, he or she would move up on the priority list.

Because LE hasn't been able to clear the circle of people closest to Kyron (i.e., TH) because of inconsistencies in her accounts or behavior that seem suspicious or bizarre, the main focus is on TH.

TH may well be resonsible for Kyron's disappearance, but it's worth remembering that her inability or unwillingness to provide an alibi and her suspect behavior do not mean she was involved in the disappearance. But it does mean LE has to focus on her.
 
RSBM and BBM

Don't kids have assigned desks? I mean, it would be possible to not notice someone was missing if they all sat in a different seat each day all over the room, but if the kids have regular assigned seats then it would be glaringly obvious if one were missing.

Anyway, I think the teacher DID know he wasn't there for classes because IIRC she marked him absent.

It would be odd for the teacher not to have noticed that he left his book bag and jacket. Kids have homework.
 
I dunno who took him, but I will say this: I firmly believe that whoever took Kyron knew that there were NO security cameras in the school.

SBM

Unfortunately, in an older building like Skyline, I think anyone could assess whether they had security cameras just by walking around and looking.

Even in newer buildings, sometimes the camera placements are obvious.

It would be safest to do the checking ahead of time but if the perpetrator were good at blending in, then it could have been done that same morning before the actual abduction.

It's thoughts like these that don't let me get all the way off the fence, sigh.
 
This is barely on the outskirts of Portland--not a small rural town. Believe me, there are PLENTY of interesting things to do in the area besides attend an IB exhibit at a tiny school in the area when you don't have kids that attend the school. There are over 2 million people who live in the greater Portland metro area. We need to get away from the idea that this is anything close to a "small town." Downtown Portland is only about 15-20 minutes away.

Yep.

Which means look for predators!
 

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