What's eating you alive re this case?

[DeeDee249]

I read the GJ indictment basically the same way you did, but that only led me to believe that it was Burke instead of Patsy. I still am not 100% convinced though that it was not just a sort of "best we can do" indictment since they were unsure of which of the 3 Ramseys did exactly what.

However the idea that the Ramseys covered up for someone outside of the family is, IMO, the most absurd of all. I could accept the IDI theory over that. There is no way they would cover up for a non family member. That is patently absurd, IMO.

I know the next step for some is finger pointing at JAR, but I don't buy that either. First there is not a shred of evidence that he was in Boulder. Second, I am a stepmother of an adult stepson and he has been part of my life since he was five. I truly love him. That said, there is no way on God's green earth that I would cover for him if he murdered my child. Or anyone else for that matter. John might have protected him, but I don't believe that Patsy would have.

The only person John and Patsy would realistically cover for would be Burke.

This is what I believe as well. I did not mean to suggest that the parents were covering for someone else outside the family. I read the GJ indictments as inferring they covered for BR. And BR could not be named in any indictments because of his age. That is why the GJ and Kolar have to "dance around" the blame. The finger can be pointed at BR, but it can't really "touch" him.

 

[Anti-K]

Heyya Anti-K

ty for posting the quotes.

for further read,
Forensics under Fire:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=1d_...=onepage&q=Rile, Cunnigham and Vacca]&f=false

you're welcome.
thanks for the link. i own a hardcopy.
...

AK

 

[tezi]

I don't know how I missed this thread, but something that really bothers me about this case is how John Ramsey acted when John Mark Karr was arrested. What really bothered me is how JR said he started feeling bad for Karr because of the press bothering him. I was like WTF? This guy supposedly killed your daughter and you feel bad for him because of the press? Those actions really convinced me that the Ramseys were involved in the cover-up of JB's death. If someone was arrested for murdering my daughter, I could care less about how the press is bothering the suspect. I'd want his head on a stake...

Sorry to go so far off topic.

JMO

 

[bettybaby00]

I don't know how I missed this thread, but something that really bothers me about this case is how John Ramsey acted when John Mark Karr was arrested. What really bothered me is how JR said he started feeling bad for Karr because of the press bothering him. I was like WTF? This guy supposedly killed your daughter and you feel bad for him because of the press? Those actions really convinced me that the Ramseys were involved in the cover-up of JB's death. If someone was arrested for murdering my daughter, I could care less about how the press is bothering the suspect. I'd want his head on a stake...

Sorry to go so far off topic.

JMO

Ha, ha..right up there with the "we're not angry with the killer," and JARs "they should be forgiven" statement.

 

[tezi]

Ha, ha..right up there with the "we're not angry with the killer," and JARs "they should be forgiven" statement.

OMG, how could I forget that? My blood pressure just went through the roof! LOL

 

[MyBelle]

I read the GJ indictment basically the same way you did, but that only led me to believe that it was Burke instead of Patsy. I still am not 100% convinced though that it was not just a sort of "best we can do" indictment since they were unsure of which of the 3 Ramseys did exactly what.

However the idea that the Ramseys covered up for someone outside of the family is, IMO, the most absurd of all. I could accept the IDI theory over that. There is no way they would cover up for a non family member. That is patently absurd, IMO.

I know the next step for some is finger pointing at JAR, but I don't buy that either. First there is not a shred of evidence that he was in Boulder. Second, I am a stepmother of an adult stepson and he has been part of my life since he was five. I truly love him. That said, there is no way on God's green earth that I would cover for him if he murdered my child. Or anyone else for that matter. John might have protected him, but I don't believe that Patsy would have.

The only person John and Patsy would realistically cover for would be Burke.

I believe John and Patsy covered for each other; that John was guilty of the chronic sexual assault and Patsy was guilty of the murder. Patsy may have caught John in the act previously and decided to "protect" her daughter forever by sacrificing her on Christmas. When John realized what Patsy had done, John wanted to cover it up and dispose of her body outside and that's why Patsy abruptly called 911 AND all their friends thus John didn't have time or opportunity to remove JonBenet from the basement.

It is the only explanation I can find for Patsy writing the ransom note but then calling 911. I think it was because she could not bring herself to allow John to dump JonBenet's body outside of their home. Patsy took John's dirty secret to her grave. In her mind, she was still protecting her children. Her daughter belonged to her and she had some kind of "right" as a mother to decide her fate. Together the couple gave the illusion of unity but I think Patsy despised her husband at that point and John knew it.

JMO

 

[Anyhoo]

I believe John and Patsy covered for each other; that John was guilty of the chronic sexual assault and Patsy was guilty of the murder. Patsy may have caught John in the act previously and decided to "protect" her daughter forever by sacrificing her on Christmas. When John realized what Patsy had done, John wanted to cover it up and dispose of her body outside and that's why Patsy abruptly called 911 AND all their friends thus John didn't have time or opportunity to remove JonBenet from the basement.

It is the only explanation I can find for Patsy writing the ransom note but then calling 911. I think it was because she could not bring herself to allow John to dump JonBenet's body outside of their home. Patsy took John's dirty secret to her grave. In her mind, she was still protecting her children. Her daughter belonged to her and she had some kind of "right" as a mother to decide her fate. Together the couple gave the illusion of unity but I think Patsy despised her husband at that point and John knew it.

JMO

I've heard this theory more than once but I don't like it. One reason is that it gives JR a total skate on the murder and I in no way believe JR is innocent of the murder. Whatever else he may have been doing to JB, he was also directly involved in her murder IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

I've heard this theory more than once but I don't like it. One reason is that it gives JR a total skate on the murder and I in no way believe JR is innocent of the murder. Whatever else he may have been doing to JB, he was also directly involved in her murder IMO.

Nowhere in my post did I suggest or imply JR should "skate on the murder."
He was indicted for child abuse resulting in death. The decision not to pursue it was made by the prosecutor, not me.

 

[Anyhoo]

Nowhere in my post did I suggest or imply JR should "skate on the murder."
He was indicted for child abuse resulting in death. The decision not to pursue it was made by the prosecutor, not me.

No, what you said was that PR sacrificed her daughter and JR discovered later what PR had done. To me that scenario does give JR a skate on the murder. I was giving my opinion on your theory. The GJ indictment has nothing to do with this, so I don't know why you are bringing that into this now.

 

[MyBelle]

No, what you said was that PR sacrificed her daughter and JR discovered later what PR had done. To me that scenario does give JR a skate on the murder. I was giving my opinion on your theory. The GJ indictment has nothing to do with this, so I don't know why you are bringing that into this now.

I've never suggested JR be given a "skate on the murder." That's your opinion and I certainly do not share it.

 

[Anyhoo]

I've never suggested JR be given a "skate on the murder." That's your opinion and I certainly do not share it.

The theory you posted gives JR a skate on the murder by saying PR did the murder and JR only found out about it later. In that case JR would not be guilty of murder. Do you disagree with that? I notice you keep changing the intent of my words. Why is that? There is no need to be defensive, as if I have falsely accused you of saying something you didn't. I understood you perfectly.

 

[Venom]

I believe John and Patsy covered for each other; that John was guilty of the chronic sexual assault and Patsy was guilty of the murder. Patsy may have caught John in the act previously and decided to "protect" her daughter forever by sacrificing her on Christmas. When John realized what Patsy had done, John wanted to cover it up and dispose of her body outside and that's why Patsy abruptly called 911 AND all their friends thus John didn't have time or opportunity to remove JonBenet from the basement.

It is the only explanation I can find for Patsy writing the ransom note but then calling 911. I think it was because she could not bring herself to allow John to dump JonBenet's body outside of their home. Patsy took John's dirty secret to her grave. In her mind, she was still protecting her children. Her daughter belonged to her and she had some kind of "right" as a mother to decide her fate. Together the couple gave the illusion of unity but I think Patsy despised her husband at that point and John knew it.

JMO

So you don't think JR knew about the RN? Or at least him not reading it?
I just can't see how he would have been ok with that dramatic short story of a ransom note.

 

[MyBelle]

So you don't think JR knew about the RN? Or at least him not reading it?
I just can't see how he would have been ok with that dramatic short story of a ransom note.

I think he knew of the ransom note but I doubt he read it. I also doubt he realized Patsy was going to call 911.

 

[midwest mama]

So you don't think JR knew about the RN? Or at least him not reading it?
I just can't see how he would have been ok with that dramatic short story of a ransom note.

I agree that JR would not have been OK with that RN being presented to LE. If he had coached PR to write one while he attended to other staging details, and they took the time for him to shower and PR to get herself freshened up before LE arrived, he surely would have reviewed the RN to make sure it would have been as close to the "real deal" as he thought it should be.

Too much at stake to risk having LE know immediately it was bogus, especially since they still would have to dispose of her body or later be able to claim the kidnappers had given it back to them once the ransom could have been delivered. With JR and PR working together on staging, HE would have been the one in charge, and making sure everything was just as it should be before LE were brought in. And he would have had a freak fit at how ridiculous that RN was to be considered genuine if he had reviewed it before the 911 call.

So, I have to consider:
1. The RN was not meant to be shown to LE, rather for PR to see and had to be horrific enough to scare her into doing whatever JR said they should do. Except the 911 call was made unexpectedly by PR before JR could get her stopped.
2. JR really did not see the RN at all before he suggested they call LE, which does not jive with the original reports they gave to LE. If he did not, and PR called LE before he even knew what was happening, then I see PR as doing most everything herself, and JR had nothing to do with much of anything.

But what about those Israeli shirt fibers found where they were found?????:banghead:

 

[MyBelle]

I agree that JR would not have been OK with that RN being presented to LE. If he had coached PR to write one while he attended to other staging details, and they took the time for him to shower and PR to get herself freshened up before LE arrived, he surely would have reviewed the RN to make sure it would have been as close to the "real deal" as he thought it should be.

Too much at stake to risk having LE know immediately it was bogus, especially since they still would have to dispose of her body or later be able to claim the kidnappers had given it back to them once the ransom could have been delivered. With JR and PR working together on staging, HE would have been the one in charge, and making sure everything was just as it should be before LE were brought in. And he would have had a freak fit at how ridiculous that RN was to be considered genuine if he had reviewed it before the 911 call.

So, I have to consider:
1. The RN was not meant to be shown to LE, rather for PR to see and had to be horrific enough to scare her into doing whatever JR said they should do. Except the 911 call was made unexpectedly by PR before JR could get her stopped.
2. JR really did not see the RN at all before he suggested they call LE, which does not jive with the original reports they gave to LE. If he did not, and PR called LE before he even knew what was happening, then I see PR as doing most everything herself, and JR had nothing to do with much of anything.

But what about those Israeli shirt fibers found where they were found?????:banghead:

The ransom note was directed only at John Ramsey and it was dripping with sarcasm directed solely at John, telling him to get his rest and that he needed southern common sense. I think it is telling him that instead of getting up in the night and sexually assaulting his daughter, he should have stayed in bed. It told him if he broke the rules, his daughter would be beheaded, which is an indication Patsy had already seen the deep ligature embedded in JonBenet's throat. John wasn't a southerner, Patsy was.

Patsy won her beauty title by reciting "dramatic" readings that she had written....the ransom note was just another bit of Patsy's flair for drama

JMO

 

[lawstudent]

What eats me alive is mostly the initial head blow.

I was discussing this in another thread, but head blows are so unpredictable and a lot of the public knowledge about concussions/hemorrhages etc. is recent.

When someone is murdered by means of head trauma, it is almost always the result of an escalated beating with other injuries. Claims that victims fell and hit their heads or were shoved and hit their heads, resulting in an "accident," are almost always quickly dismissed.

There definitely have been cases where someone punched someone in a fight, the person hit the pavement and cracked his skull, and then died. It's possible. But it's not the way you would plan to intentionally kill someone, because instant death or even incapacitation is very far from certain, and it's unlikely you'd immediately assume the person was dead if there was some sort of accident or impulsive strike.

We know JonBenet wasn't dead, so either her parents thought she was or that she was unrevivable, which is quite an assumption to make without medical training. I would assume they would check her breathing over and over again, just hoping she was alive, assuming it wasn't intentional. Most parents try and argue there was an accident when they beat a child and injure its brain. The severity wasn't obvious, although the sound may have been a clue. Then you have the fact that the weapon has never been conclusively established, and no history of escalating beatings.

It's obviously possible that she was struck by a family member intentionally or in a fit of rage, but it's never rung very true to me. I don't have a good explanation for what happened, though.

 

[bettybaby00]

I agree that JR would not have been OK with that RN being presented to LE. If he had coached PR to write one while he attended to other staging details, and they took the time for him to shower and PR to get herself freshened up before LE arrived, he surely would have reviewed the RN to make sure it would have been as close to the "real deal" as he thought it should be.

Too much at stake to risk having LE know immediately it was bogus, especially since they still would have to dispose of her body or later be able to claim the kidnappers had given it back to them once the ransom could have been delivered. With JR and PR working together on staging, HE would have been the one in charge, and making sure everything was just as it should be before LE were brought in. And he would have had a freak fit at how ridiculous that RN was to be considered genuine if he had reviewed it before the 911 call.

So, I have to consider:
1. The RN was not meant to be shown to LE, rather for PR to see and had to be horrific enough to scare her into doing whatever JR said they should do. Except the 911 call was made unexpectedly by PR before JR could get her stopped.
2. JR really did not see the RN at all before he suggested they call LE, which does not jive with the original reports they gave to LE. If he did not, and PR called LE before he even knew what was happening, then I see PR as doing most everything herself, and JR had nothing to do with much of anything.

But what about those Israeli shirt fibers found where they were found?????:banghead:

Was he completely clueless? The RN does very much seem directed to JR. "It's all up to you now." PR also says on the 27(?). When they were taking DNA exemplars etc etc? "I didn't kill my baby."

(FF)

 

[DeeDee249]

The ransom note was directed only at John Ramsey and it was dripping with sarcasm directed solely at John, telling him to get his rest and that he needed southern common sense. I think it is telling him that instead of getting up in the night and sexually assaulting his daughter, he should have stayed in bed. It told him if he broke the rules, his daughter would be beheaded, which is an indication Patsy had already seen the deep ligature embedded in JonBenet's throat. John wasn't a southerner, Patsy was.

Patsy won her beauty title by reciting "dramatic" readings that she had written....the ransom note was just another bit of Patsy's flair for drama

JMO

But the PRACTICE note, found by police on the same notepad, written with the same sharpie pen and in the same handwriting, had a different salutation: It began "Mr & Mrs. R... - then the author changed her mind and re-wrote a second one. Later, Patsy's sister admitted Patsy wrote the practice note, saying it was the beginning of a party invitation..Patsy's sister never commented (and likely was never asked) about why the practice note, which she attributed to Patsy, and the ransom note had the identical handwriting.
Add this to the list of things never followed up on. And the presence of that practice note should end all further discussions about whether the note was written in the home. It was. Kidnappers don't have that kind of time- not only would a real kidnapper/intruder not have written a 3-page ransom note, but to think they'd also have written a practice note offends reason.

 

[gramcracker]

JR's 2001 depo:

Q. When you were looking at the ransom note, was there anything in the language of the ransom note that struck you as peculiar?

A. The whole thing was peculiar. We were addressed as "Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey," and then they switched to "John" personally. They asked for twenty dollar bills and hundred dollar bills, as I recall. The amount was a very odd amount. The way the note was signed was very odd.The cruelty that they threatened was bizarre. It was a very sick mind that wrote that note.

the practice RN was addressed to Mr/Mrs; the actual RN was addressed to Mr

- - > tip o' the hat to Country Girl

Ransom Note Catch by Country Girl!!! - Forums For Justice


:dance:

 

[bettybaby00]

JR's 2001 depo:

the practice RN was addressed to Mr/Mrs; the actual RN was addressed to Mr

- - > tip o' the hat to Country Girl

Ransom Note Catch by Country Girl!!! - Forums For Justice


:dance:

Hmmm, are those his passive/aggressive feelings about PR?