Where Should Boulder Police Start?

[arielilane]

The 911 call made three days prior to the murder is indeed strange to me.

I do not believe BR is involved at all, although I have to wonder if he heard the scream that night. How could he not have heard it?

 

[DeeDee249]

KK, that is quite a "wish list", and I must say it mirrors my own. If even half of what should be done IS done, they may actually get themselves closer to solving this case. Unfortunately, people can't be compelled to talk to police. While we would hope LE would ASK to talk to BR and JR (and others you mentioned), they don't have to agree to do it and I doubt the family (including PR's surviving sisters) would agree.
Testing evidence and re-testing that which was tested years ago IS something that LE doesn't need approval to do. They have (supposedly) a warehouse full of it, so let's start with what they have and see where that leads.
It is unfortunate that some of it may not exist anymore. Phone companies may not have records going back that far (I'd love to see a warrant granted to get ALL their phone records for 1996 and 1997. The chair from the basement may not exist, we don't know of it was taken into evidence. JR's golf bag (containing clubs that COULD have been the murder weapon) was allowed to be removed from the home by PP, so that LE never had it in evidence anyway. Let's face it- clothes, rugs, furniture- the things that COULD have evidence on them are gone forever.

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi kk.

If that's your short list, I'd love to read your long list!

 

[Tadpole12]

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20263921,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines

People Mag. March 8, 2009

New Task Force

"On Feb. 2, Boulder police Chief Mark Beckner held a press conference to announce the formation of a cold case task force made up of veteran law enforcement members from a variety of agencies including the FBI to review evidence and explore theories. Beckner said at the time that he believed the murder could be solved because of the advances in both DNA and linguistics technology."



What kind of advancements in linguistic technology is MB refering to.
Have there been dramatic advances in this field, that would negate the initial profiles?

 

[Tadpole12]

KK, that is quite a "wish list", and I must say it mirrors my own. If even half of what should be done IS done, they may actually get themselves closer to solving this case. Unfortunately, people can't be compelled to talk to police. While we would hope LE would ASK to talk to BR and JR (and others you mentioned), they don't have to agree to do it and I doubt the family (including PR's surviving sisters) would agree.
Testing evidence and re-testing that which was tested years ago IS something that LE doesn't need approval to do. They have (supposedly) a warehouse full of it, so let's start with what they have and see where that leads.
It is unfortunate that some of it may not exist anymore. Phone companies may not have records going back that far (I'd love to see a warrant granted to get ALL their phone records for 1996 and 1997. The chair from the basement may not exist, we don't know of it was taken into evidence. JR's golf bag (containing clubs that COULD have been the murder weapon) was allowed to be removed from the home by PP, so that LE never had it in evidence anyway. Let's face it- clothes, rugs, furniture- the things that COULD have evidence on them are gone forever.

Hi DeeDee,

That's what I was wondering about, sorta. What abilities to proceed the PBD would have without issuing a warrant.

And I was wondering about all the dna taken in this case.
Why weren't all the POI who gave dna samples, mentioned as excluded?
Do they have the ability to request their confirmation as being excluded?

Also I was reading about famial dna, and "the testing of the y chromosome for paternal line testing" http://www.duerinck.com/dnalabs.html


kinship likelihood ratios of a given forensic profile:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:0G6u806Y7L8J:www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/Familial_DNA/CDAA%2520familial%2520search%2520article.pdf+familial+searching+dna&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12&gl=ca

"statistical evaluation of the offender DNA profiles compared to the forensic DNA
profiles, generating a pool of familial candidates based on their likelihood of being
relatives of the source of the forensic sample. A likelihood ratio value above one may
favor relatedness, while a number below one likely indicates that the DNA profiles
are not related. As a practical matter, the DOJ approach is limited to looking for
close relatives, i.e., parents and their children or full siblings. The data bank team
developed a statistical software application, humorously called “The Ratiometer,” that
calculates kinship likelihood ratios of a given forensic profile with 1.1 million data
bank profiles according to the following algebraic formula ...."



I was wondering if this technology could be applied to the dna samples given in the JBR case to determine the liklihood of kinship of the perp in relation to a given sample.

 

[RiverRat]

Remember Medgar Evers? Civil rights leader shot, buried in the 60's, and then his grave dug up to seek evidence to convict his killer? His body was so perfectly preserved some 30 years after the murder, his wife said he looked as he did the day they buried him.

LE will never know until they do the exhumation. If the BPD actually is investigating this murder again, that's at the top of their list. Another autopsy.

Re-interview Burke, second. No dancing around the facts, either. He's a man now. He should want his sister's killer caught. Give him an LE SPONSORED polygraph test.

Re-interview John Ramsey, third. Ask him the questions that should have been followed up on 12 years ago. Give him an LE SPONSORED polygraph test.

Re-interview John Andrew and Melissa. Give them polygraphs.

Re-interview Lucinda, John's first wife. Give her a polygraph.

Re-interview Patsy's sisters. Give them polygraphs.

Re-interview LHPugh and her daughter.

Re-interview the Whites, the Fernies, the Reverend, the victim advocates there that morning, Linda Arndt, other LE, THE WHOLE SHOOTIN' GANG.

Interview JonBenet's cousins and friends, all now old enough to tell the truth should they know something.

Subpoena all the tapes, films, and audio of any interviews with the Ramseys done by Michael Tracey, CNN, other news programs, and the tapes and notes the ghost writer used to write the "Ramsey's book".

Interview Grandpa Paugh. Give him a polygraph.

Nail down the latest forensic analysis on the ransom note.

"Touch" DNA test the garrote, the duct tape, all the child's clothing she wore, especially the Bloomies, top to bottom, front and back. "Touch" DNA test the blanket and the Barbie gown.

Test the package of Bloomies turned in by the Ramseys, five years TOO LATE, for DNA, fingerprints, including all the the remaining undies inside. Have a forensic lab make a lifesized model of JonBenet's body and use it to study the "too large" Bloomies found on the child.

Subpoena the Ramsey phone records, out of the adjudicated case of the PI's who stole them, as well as if any remain on records anywhere. Determine if that "lost" cell phone had calls from the Ramseys on it AFTER the murder date. Trace phone calls to ANYONE whose number shows up on ANY of the Ramsey records for three months prior, three months after.

Subpoena Dr. Beuf's medical records of JonBenet. Subpoena the medical psychiatrist's records of Patsy Ramsey. Give Dr. Beuf a polygraph test.

Just for starters....

And the Ssssssssstines, too!

 

[BBB167893]

And I was wondering about all the dna taken in this case.
Why weren't all the POI who gave dna samples, mentioned as excluded?

Why do you think, Tadpole?

 

[KoldKase]

And the Ssssssssstines, too!

Oh, gosh, how could I forget the Mark Beckner impersonator?! :waitasec:

 

[KoldKase]

KK, that is quite a "wish list", and I must say it mirrors my own. If even half of what should be done IS done, they may actually get themselves closer to solving this case. Unfortunately, people can't be compelled to talk to police. While we would hope LE would ASK to talk to BR and JR (and others you mentioned), they don't have to agree to do it and I doubt the family (including PR's surviving sisters) would agree.

LE could, as they ALWAYS COULD HAVE, compell the Ramseys to SHOW UP, whether they talked or not. It would take another grand jury, of course.

LE could also simply ask them for interviews, in lieu of the "new" new investigation, and if they refuse to show up...again...I for one would LOVE to hear the Ramseys play that game AGAIN and PROVE ONCE MORE that they have not and will NEVER cooperate in any investigation that aims to find the killer, rather than to cater to the Ramseys.

Testing evidence and re-testing that which was tested years ago IS something that LE doesn't need approval to do. They have (supposedly) a warehouse full of it, so let's start with what they have and see where that leads.
It is unfortunate that some of it may not exist anymore. Phone companies may not have records going back that far (I'd love to see a warrant granted to get ALL their phone records for 1996 and 1997. The chair from the basement may not exist, we don't know of it was taken into evidence. JR's golf bag (containing clubs that COULD have been the murder weapon) was allowed to be removed from the home by PP, so that LE never had it in evidence anyway. Let's face it- clothes, rugs, furniture- the things that COULD have evidence on them are gone forever.

Yes, they have plenty to work with, but it would take time and money, and they've been down that road so many times now. Imagine that Boulder, like most counties in this country right now, has a budget crunch. Does anyone really believe they're going to spend ANOTHER TWO MILLION DOLLARS on an investigation that cannot ever lead to any conviction? Not to mention, has been a media nightmare for them for 12 years now?

Of course, I wish they would. But without a trial, it's likely we'll never know the results of any new testing anyway. It's a win/win for the BPD and BDA: they SAY they're doing the investigation, but we have no rights nor reason to expect they're going to be calling press conferences to announce they're still working it, much less giving out any new lab or investigative results.

Now imagine that they DO focus on a killer...one who can be prosecuted. How long will that trial take, anyway? How much will THAT cost? Even if they got a "guilty", which in Boulder is like saying the rich will hold the rich accountable, who is going to pick up that tab? Not John Ramsey. He's broke, remember?

I wish I could believe that this is anything but a publicity ploy to dump the case into a black hole of "no comment", from which it will never return. Maybe they'll prove me wrong. I would be as shocked as I have ever been about anything, if that were to happen.

But then, I had NO IDEA how clueless Mary Lacy was until she arrested John Mark Karr. I am sure she let him go, without so much as AN INTERVIEW WITH BOULDER DETECTIVES, because of exactly what I have pointed out; she already knew his DNA didn't match before she dragged him to Boulder at a taxpayer cost of $36K. When she finally came out of her fuzzy bunny stupor, someone pointed out to her the reality of prosecuting ANYONE in this case. It would take YEARS for a defense team to even BEGIN to get up to speed on the evidence and issues.

 

[gaia227]

I have followed JBR for years but not as closely as some of you have. I was recently reading the unsolved murder of Cassandra Rundle and her two children in Colorado Springs. Lou Smit was also a detective in that case. Robert Brown's name is brought up because he claims he murdered a bunch of people in Colorado.

I had not heard about the bat that was found outside or the peanuts in the basement. I am sure this has been discussed here but what do you JBR experts think the significance of the bat is? Could it have been planted there to throw of LE? Was it the weapon used to cause the BFT to JBR?

In mid March, retired detective Lou Smit outlined previously undisclosed evidence that led him to believe that John and Patsy Ramsey were not responsible for their daughter's death. "I believe there's evidence of an intruder, and I believe people should still be looking for him," Smit said. "There's a dangerous guy out there."

According to Smit, that evidence included:

* A metal baseball bat found outside the Ramseys' Boulder home. Fibers on the bat matched a carpet found in the basement near the storage room, where JonBenet's body was found. The bat was found, "in a place where kids normally wouldn't play," Smit said, declining to elaborate.
* DNA evidence that indicates JonBenet's attacker was a male but the DNA does not match John Ramsey.
* Peanut-shaped foam packing material and leaves found in the basement that Smit thinks might have been tracked inside by someone entering through a broken basement window. "It would have been something that would not have been blown in there," Smit said.

http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=1234



There seems to be a really high number of unsolved homicides in Colorado
http://cbs4denver.com/crime/colorado.cold.case.2.680374.html

 

[RiverRat]

I'm sorry, but when it comes down to Smit's choice of words, I know just how biased he is, so those are all write-offs for me.

 

[DeeDee249]

The family included an almost 10-year old boy whom they admitted had baseball bats, including one like the one that was found. PR said his bat was just like that one, but stopped short of admitting the one they found was her son's. I can't believe it wasn't tested for prints- and since we have heard nothing about those prints, I'm betting they belonged to BR.

As far as the packing peanuts- let's not forget this was a basement. I would find them in MY basement, and I don't have those windows. I have boxes- storage and items where you'd save the packing materials in case you had to retrun it. I still find peanuts from a Fitz & Floyd ceramic Santa that I unpacked 3 years ago. Smit reinvented this case in his mind, not according to the evidence but the way he WANTED it to be.

 

[Ames]

The family included an almost 10-year old boy whom they admitted had baseball bats, including one like the one that was found. PR said his bat was just like that one, but stopped short of admitting the one they found was her son's. I can't believe it wasn't tested for prints- and since we have heard nothing about those prints, I'm betting they belonged to BR.

As far as the packing peanuts- let's not forget this was a basement. I would find them in MY basement, and I don't have those windows. I have boxes- storage and items where you'd save the packing materials in case you had to retrun it. I still find peanuts from a Fitz & Floyd ceramic Santa that I unpacked 3 years ago. Smit reinvented this case in his mind, not according to the evidence but the way he WANTED it to be.

I never have figured out why "packing peanuts" would have anything to do with an intruder, anyway. Packing peanuts aren't something that would have been outside and dragged in through the window, by an intruder...like you said...it is something that would have been found in the basement already. I use to keep a garbage bag full of packing peanuts in the basment...to reuse, if I wanted to ship a gift or something.

 

[rashomon]

The family included an almost 10-year old boy whom they admitted had baseball bats, including one like the one that was found. PR said his bat was just like that one, but stopped short of admitting the one they found was her son's. I can't believe it wasn't tested for prints- and since we have heard nothing about those prints, I'm betting they belonged to BR.

Michael Kane later said said that it was revealed during the grand jury hearings that this bat was indeed Burke's.

As far as the packing peanuts- let's not forget this was a basement. I would find them in MY basement, and I don't have those windows.

Like so often, Lou Smit's peanut-brained speculations border on the comical. The Ramsey basement was the place where presents were stored, packed and wrapped, therefore to find packing peanuts in that place is to be expected.

 

[RiverRat]

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-baseball-bat.htm

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-evidence.htm

 

[Sophie]

Michael Kane later said said that it was revealed during the grand jury hearings that this bat was indeed Burke's.

Like so often, Lou Smit's peanut-brained speculations border on the comical. The Ramsey basement was the place where presents were stored, packed and wrapped, therefore to find packing peanuts in that place is to be expected.

LOL at 'peanut-brained.' It's amazing how many people think Smit is Columbo,Sherlock Holmes and Quincy wrapped up in one brilliant package (my usually sensible mother for one!)

 

[Maikai]

I never have figured out why "packing peanuts" would have anything to do with an intruder, anyway. Packing peanuts aren't something that would have been outside and dragged in through the window, by an intruder...like you said...it is something that would have been found in the basement already. I use to keep a garbage bag full of packing peanuts in the basment...to reuse, if I wanted to ship a gift or something.

The relevance is ONE packing peanut was found in the wine room.....and they were in the window well. It shows the intruder could have come in through the window, and the peanut was on his clothing or shoes. They should have analyzed it to see if the same kind of dirt was found on it, as those in the window well, but I don't think it was even taken in as evidence. I think it was just the photos that showed it.

 

[Maikai]

LOL at 'peanut-brained.' It's amazing how many people think Smit is Columbo,Sherlock Holmes and Quincy wrapped up in one brilliant package (my usually sensible mother for one!)

Lou Smit has a track record of solving cases---over 200. If anyone thought they were Columbo, it was Steve Thomas. Lou's past actions speak volumes about his ability. His strong suit is putting together case files and organizing evidence. It's the reason Hunter hired him.

 

[Maikai]

Michael Kane later said said that it was revealed during the grand jury hearings that this bat was indeed Burke's.

I don't think that is correct. The bat had fibers from the carpeting in the basement on it...most likely why Patsy was questioned about bats ever being in the basement. You would think Burke would know if he had an expensive metal bat...but I don't recall anything coming out about that one way or the other. There was writing on the bat....another thing you would think a kid would know about if he had one.

Bats and stun guns were favorite weapons in Boulder/Denver at the time. Several assaults were committed using one or the other prior to the murder of JBR.

 

[Maikai]

Susannah Chase was brutally murdered and sexually assaulted a year later. She was bludgeoned with a baseball bat (which was found) and left for dead. They had DNA and the perp was arrested last year, due to his DNA finallly being put in a database when he was in prison in Wyoming.

The Boulder Camera reported a couple weeks ago, that the Boulder Police had the tip on this guy soon after the murder. Someone reported that he had said he hit someone with a bat. This wasn't pursued. I don't have much faith that the Boulder Police can solve murders, unless they have some new talent. At the time of Susannah's murder they also missed the trail of blood. A citizen reported it.