Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[UKGuy]

i never understood how come no one knew if that blanket was the one from jbr's bed or not.patsy said she tucked her in the night before,right?she doesn't remember if there was a blanket on that bed or not?:bang:

maya.morgen,
Because the Ramsey lawyers had told them to say I cannot remember to anything relating to the fine details of their version of events.


The only place the Ramseys are required to have 100% hindsight is in the court room, anything said outside is not testimony under oath.

patsy said she tucked her in the night before,right?

So why was pineapple discovered in JonBenets stomach, thus contradicting the parents claim that JonBenet was placed to bed after returning home?

So in short what John says or Patsy tells you, and they have many different versions, is contradicted not only by the forensic evidence but also by Burke who states JonBenet walked into the house on returning from the White's. So what Patsy says right? well actually no.


.

 

[maya.morgen]

maya.morgen,
Because the Ramsey lawyers had told them to say I cannot remember to anything relating to the fine details of their version of events.


The only place the Ramseys are required to have 100% hindsight is in the court room, anything said outside is not testimony under oath.



So why was pineapple discovered in JonBenets stomach, thus contradicting the parents claim that JonBenet was placed to bed after returning home?

So in short what John says or Patsy tells you, and they have many different versions, is contradicted not only by the forensic evidence but also by Burke who states JonBenet walked into the house on returning from the White's. So what Patsy says right? well actually no.


.

yep,makes perfect sense.they gave statements to the police wayyyyy to late,after discussing with their army of lawyers.

i couldn't find burke's statements anywhere online,can you help me out?

ETA:i never said patsy was right,i just pointed out what she claimed.

 

[tumble]

I think Burke did it. And here is why IMO.

No kidnapper: There was no phone call. The kidnapper didn't do any kidnapping.

The pineapple: If the parents knew about the pineapple they would have had a better story. So the pineapple tells me there were happenings that night the parents didn't know about.

The staging within staging: We have a kidnapping, a ligature strangulation and a head wound and a hidden body. I can't see that all this comes about just as a wavering mind but as the following

Firstly: The real cause of death
Secondly: An initial staging by the one causing the death
Thirdly: A secondary staging done by someone else refuting the first staging as inappropriate.

Cooperation by the parents: For the parents to be so cooperative I think they have a common interest making them stick together. If one parent was responsible I don't think the other would cooperate.

This is what happened: JB wakes up hungry in the middle of the night. She helps herself to some pineapple from the fridge. Burke wakes up hearing noises, he gets afraid and arms himself with a big flashlight. He thinks of going to his parents room but just as he is getting ready to go he hears steps coming up the stairs so he waits in his room. JB who is done with her pineapple is coming up the stairs and decides to go into Burkes room as she sometimes does at night. Burke is frantic at this moment as kids sometimes gets at night is standing guard with the flashlight raised and before he realizes that it is JB who is entering his room he lets the flashlight fly.

When he realizes what he has done he in his childish fear decides to make it look like an intruder has molested and strangled JB. He don't know anything about molestation so he only manages to scratch the vagina marginally and the ligatures end up nonfunctional with hair entangled into the knots. He decides to do all this in the basement and maybe his initial intentions is that JB is going to be found there in the morning. But PR wakes up by noises in the basement, she probably wakes JR up and they together goes down in the basement and uncovers the horrific scene. They are faced with Burke having tied a noose around JB neck. This is not something they can tell authorities. They understand that leaving JB like this will only cast suspicion on the family especially JR. They decide change Burkes initial staging to something else. The idea is to hide JB in the basement and write a ransom note making LE handle it as a kidnapping, in their thoughts LE will be busy searching for the kidnapper long enough for them to get a better grip of the situation. The scenario fell apart when the kidnapper never called.

The mistakes they made:

1. They never knew JB had eaten any pineapple.
2. They didn't realize that LE would get suspicious when the kidnapper never called and then start searching the house in more detail not just looking for a possible hiding perp but for clues.
3. They left evidence on the body indicating contact with both of them.
4. They made a poor job with the ransom note.

and finally the biggest mistake

5. They never understood the real version of events until it was too late. If they had understood that Burke had mistakenly killed JB in the first place they probably would have just called 911 directly describing the situation. Instead they were too fast to move Burke out of the picture never taking time to get information about what really happened.

Unfortunately these mistakes were overshadowed by BPD.

 

[Ames]

I think Burke did it. And here is why IMO.

No kidnapper: There was no phone call. The kidnapper didn't do any kidnapping.

The pineapple: If the parents knew about the pineapple they would have had a better story. So the pineapple tells me there were happenings that night the parents didn't know about.

The staging within staging: We have a kidnapping, a ligature strangulation and a head wound and a hidden body. I can't see that all this comes about just as a wavering mind but as the following

Firstly: The real cause of death
Secondly: An initial staging by the one causing the death
Thirdly: A secondary staging done by someone else refuting the first staging as inappropriate.

Cooperation by the parents: For the parents to be so cooperative I think they have a common interest making them stick together. If one parent was responsible I don't think the other would cooperate.

This is what happened: JB wakes up hungry in the middle of the night. She helps herself to some pineapple from the fridge. Burke wakes up hearing noises, he gets afraid and arms himself with a big flashlight. He thinks of going to his parents room but just as he is getting ready to go he hears steps coming up the stairs so he waits in his room. JB who is done with her pineapple is coming up the stairs and decides to go into Burkes room as she sometimes does at night. Burke is frantic at this moment as kids sometimes gets at night is standing guard with the flashlight raised and before he realizes that it is JB who is entering his room he lets the flashlight fly.

When he realizes what he has done he in his childish fear decides to make it look like an intruder has molested and strangled JB. He don't know anything about molestation so he only manages to scratch the vagina marginally and the ligatures end up nonfunctional with hair entangled into the knots. He decides to do all this in the basement and maybe his initial intentions is that JB is going to be found there in the morning. But PR wakes up by noises in the basement, she probably wakes JR up and they together goes down in the basement and uncovers the horrific scene. They are faced with Burke having tied a noose around JB neck. This is not something they can tell authorities. They understand that leaving JB like this will only cast suspicion on the family especially JR. They decide change Burkes initial staging to something else. The idea is to hide JB in the basement and write a ransom note making LE handle it as a kidnapping, in their thoughts LE will be busy searching for the kidnapper long enough for them to get a better grip of the situation. The scenario fell apart when the kidnapper never called.

The mistakes they made:

1. They never knew JB had eaten any pineapple.
2. They didn't realize that LE would get suspicious when the kidnapper never called and then start searching the house in more detail not just looking for a possible hiding perp but for clues.
3. They left evidence on the body indicating contact with both of them.
4. They made a poor job with the ransom note.

and finally the biggest mistake

5. They never understood the real version of events until it was too late. If they had understood that Burke had mistakenly killed JB in the first place they probably would have just called 911 directly describing the situation. Instead they were too fast to move Burke out of the picture never taking time to get information about what really happened.

Unfortunately these mistakes were overshadowed by BPD.

If Burke did it, then why did he walk in while Patsy was about to hang up with the 911 call, and say..."What did you find"? Referring ...imo...to Patsy's 911 call about the RN. (I believe that he overheard part of her conversation with the 911 operatior...and was wondering what it was that she found). And why would John then say..."We are not speaking to you"! ?

 

[DeeDee249]

ONLY PR's prints were on the bowl of pineapple. If JBR had helped herself to it, her prints would be there too.
Now- i CAN see one possibility as far as the pineapple- if PR had put the bowl on the table earlier and didn't put it away (the Rs were all notoriously sloppy about putting stuff back, according to the housekeeper) that would be one way to account for her having access to the pineapple alone (or with BR). IF ONLY police had done saliva DNA testing on the spoon and glass. But PR's denial at first that she even owned the bowl (which was seen in a photograph on her table from her party on Dec. 23rd and which JR identified as being theirs) and her denial that she ever bought the pineapple (which many knew was one of JBR's favorite fruits) and for which the remainder was found in the R fridge- these 2 denials of things that there should be no reason to deny tell me she KNEW about the pineapple, that she was the one who gave it to her daughter, and that she distanced herself from it after pineapple in JBR's digestive tract was found (a BIG shock to the Rs) and pointed to a time of death much closer to their arrival home.
That being said- I can't see BR whacking her for a stranger. Whoever hit her had to SEE her. BR just wouldn't have been able to so this without realizing who it was. And I can't see him staging a sexual molestation either.
I can see him engaging is sex play- they'd been "caught" by the housekeeper in suspicious activities- but not staging this after accidentally killing her.
I am not ruling out ANY of the Rs. But for BR to have done this all alone- I just can't see it. IMHO.

 

[DeeDee249]

I believe it was LHP who told LE that the white blanket was from JBR's bed. She said it was always laundered in the basement machines because it didn't fit in the smaller washer and dryer outside JBR's room. The crime scene photos clearly show no blanket on the unmade bed. The bottom of the bed os very neatly still made, while the top on the bed had been unmade. From that photo, there is no way that blanket was pulled off the bed and the bottom would stay that neat.
I think one of the reasons that she was covered in her blanket was to make it look like she was taken from her bed. LHP said that blanket was washed every day, as were the sheets from JBR's bed. But LHP did NOT come to the R house either Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. The last time LHP said she was at the R's was Dec. 23rd, to help with the R Christmas Party, which her daughter also attended. When shown photos of the bed by LE, she remarked that the sheets were NOT the ones she put on the bed Dec. 23rd. JBR likely wet the bed either Dec. 24 or 25th, and PR changed the sheets herself- but didn't bother to put the blanket back on the bed because they were going away the next day anyway. She figured she'd leave it for when LHP came again.

 

[JMO8778]

ONLY PR's prints were on the bowl of pineapple. If JBR had helped herself to it, her prints would be there too.
Now- i CAN see one possibility as far as the pineapple- if PR had put the bowl on the table earlier and didn't put it away (the Rs were all notoriously sloppy about putting stuff back, according to the housekeeper) that would be one way to account for her having access to the pineapple alone (or with BR). IF ONLY police had done saliva DNA testing on the spoon and glass. But PR's denial at first that she even owned the bowl (which was seen in a photograph on her table from her party on Dec. 23rd and which JR identified as being theirs) and her denial that she ever bought the pineapple (which many knew was one of JBR's favorite fruits) and for which the remainder was found in the R fridge- these 2 denials of things that there should be no reason to deny tell me she KNEW about the pineapple, that she was the one who gave it to her daughter, and that she distanced herself from it after pineapple in JBR's digestive tract was found (a BIG shock to the Rs) and pointed to a time of death much closer to their arrival home.
That being said- I can't see BR whacking her for a stranger. Whoever hit her had to SEE her. BR just wouldn't have been able to so this without realizing who it was. And I can't see him staging a sexual molestation either.
I can see him engaging is sex play- they'd been "caught" by the housekeeper in suspicious activities- but not staging this after accidentally killing her.
I am not ruling out ANY of the Rs. But for BR to have done this all alone- I just can't see it. IMHO.

I agree,9,almost 10 yrs old is far too young to have thought it out in such a manner.

What many ppl don't understand is that the more intense the wounds,the more likely they are to have been inflicted by someone the victim knew...that personalizes it.After all,it's harder to become intensely angry with someone you don't even know,and much more so if the victim is a small,defenseless child.
So the fact JB had an 8 1/2 skull fracture,as well as manual strangulation marks around her neck,indicates intense anger at her...that alone greatly increases the odds that it was done by someone she knew.

 

[tumble]

If Burke did it, then why did he walk in while Patsy was about to hang up with the 911 call, and say..."What did you find"? Referring ...imo...to Patsy's 911 call about the RN. (I believe that he overheard part of her conversation with the 911 operatior...and was wondering what it was that she found). And why would John then say..."We are not speaking to you"! ?

I have listened to the 911 call and I just can't hear anything except the operator and PR. I'm not saying you are wrong Ames just that I'm not taking this as facts.

If JBR had helped herself to it, her prints would be there too.

Good point DeeDee but sometimes prints are not left on items being touched. If your fingers are really dry for example.

the more intense the wounds,the more likely they are to have been inflicted by someone the victim knew...that personalizes it.After all,it's harder to become intensely angry with someone you don't even know,and much more so if the victim is a small,defenseless child.
So the fact JB had an 8 1/2 skull fracture,as well as manual strangulation marks around her neck,indicates intense anger at her...that alone greatly increases the odds that it was done by someone she knew..

I agree that overkilling often implies a close relationship between victim and perp just as you say. I just don't see an overkilling here. I see one headblow that IMO was not necessarily very hard and a staged ligature.

 

[maya.morgen]

I think Burke did it. And here is why IMO.

No kidnapper: There was no phone call. The kidnapper didn't do any kidnapping.

The pineapple: If the parents knew about the pineapple they would have had a better story. So the pineapple tells me there were happenings that night the parents didn't know about.

The staging within staging: We have a kidnapping, a ligature strangulation and a head wound and a hidden body. I can't see that all this comes about just as a wavering mind but as the following

Firstly: The real cause of death
Secondly: An initial staging by the one causing the death
Thirdly: A secondary staging done by someone else refuting the first staging as inappropriate.

Cooperation by the parents: For the parents to be so cooperative I think they have a common interest making them stick together. If one parent was responsible I don't think the other would cooperate.

This is what happened: JB wakes up hungry in the middle of the night. She helps herself to some pineapple from the fridge. Burke wakes up hearing noises, he gets afraid and arms himself with a big flashlight. He thinks of going to his parents room but just as he is getting ready to go he hears steps coming up the stairs so he waits in his room. JB who is done with her pineapple is coming up the stairs and decides to go into Burkes room as she sometimes does at night. Burke is frantic at this moment as kids sometimes gets at night is standing guard with the flashlight raised and before he realizes that it is JB who is entering his room he lets the flashlight fly.

When he realizes what he has done he in his childish fear decides to make it look like an intruder has molested and strangled JB. He don't know anything about molestation so he only manages to scratch the vagina marginally and the ligatures end up nonfunctional with hair entangled into the knots. He decides to do all this in the basement and maybe his initial intentions is that JB is going to be found there in the morning. But PR wakes up by noises in the basement, she probably wakes JR up and they together goes down in the basement and uncovers the horrific scene. They are faced with Burke having tied a noose around JB neck. This is not something they can tell authorities. They understand that leaving JB like this will only cast suspicion on the family especially JR. They decide change Burkes initial staging to something else. The idea is to hide JB in the basement and write a ransom note making LE handle it as a kidnapping, in their thoughts LE will be busy searching for the kidnapper long enough for them to get a better grip of the situation. The scenario fell apart when the kidnapper never called.

The mistakes they made:

1. They never knew JB had eaten any pineapple.
2. They didn't realize that LE would get suspicious when the kidnapper never called and then start searching the house in more detail not just looking for a possible hiding perp but for clues.
3. They left evidence on the body indicating contact with both of them.
4. They made a poor job with the ransom note.

and finally the biggest mistake

5. They never understood the real version of events until it was too late. If they had understood that Burke had mistakenly killed JB in the first place they probably would have just called 911 directly describing the situation. Instead they were too fast to move Burke out of the picture never taking time to get information about what really happened.

Unfortunately these mistakes were overshadowed by BPD.

i don't think that they knew about the pineapple either,they would have had a good story for it

 

[maya.morgen]

or maybe they decided "not to know about it" only after they learned that it was found in her system. *shrug*

 

[UKGuy]

ONLY PR's prints were on the bowl of pineapple. If JBR had helped herself to it, her prints would be there too.
Now- i CAN see one possibility as far as the pineapple- if PR had put the bowl on the table earlier and didn't put it away (the Rs were all notoriously sloppy about putting stuff back, according to the housekeeper) that would be one way to account for her having access to the pineapple alone (or with BR). IF ONLY police had done saliva DNA testing on the spoon and glass. But PR's denial at first that she even owned the bowl (which was seen in a photograph on her table from her party on Dec. 23rd and which JR identified as being theirs) and her denial that she ever bought the pineapple (which many knew was one of JBR's favorite fruits) and for which the remainder was found in the R fridge- these 2 denials of things that there should be no reason to deny tell me she KNEW about the pineapple, that she was the one who gave it to her daughter, and that she distanced herself from it after pineapple in JBR's digestive tract was found (a BIG shock to the Rs) and pointed to a time of death much closer to their arrival home.
That being said- I can't see BR whacking her for a stranger. Whoever hit her had to SEE her. BR just wouldn't have been able to so this without realizing who it was. And I can't see him staging a sexual molestation either.
I can see him engaging is sex play- they'd been "caught" by the housekeeper in suspicious activities- but not staging this after accidentally killing her.
I am not ruling out ANY of the Rs. But for BR to have done this all alone- I just can't see it. IMHO.

DeeDee249,
From memory, not always a reliable source, but was Burkes fingerprints not also on the pineapple bowl?

Also that JonBenet and Burke had shared beds, was no secret, probably not even to John and Patsy. So why would Burke need to kill JonBenet? If it was an accidental death on his part, then why do the parents need such a bizarre crime-scene staging, a 911 call would have sufficed?

As a resident that night Burke is on the suspect list, but at ten-years old, and relatively naive about the ways of the world, the complexity of the crime-scene staging was beyond him, and with little motive he moves off the suspect radar.


IMO, with zero evidence of an intruder, and Burke representing maybe 5% of a risk, this places both parents firmly in the frame!


.

 

[UKGuy]

The mistakes they made:

1. They never knew JB had eaten any pineapple.
2. They didn't realize that LE would get suspicious when the kidnapper never called and then start searching the house in more detail not just looking for a possible hiding perp but for clues.
3. They left evidence on the body indicating contact with both of them.
4. They made a poor job with the ransom note.

and finally the biggest mistake

5. They never understood the real version of events until it was too late. If they had understood that Burke had mistakenly killed JB in the first place they probably would have just called 911 directly describing the situation. Instead they were too fast to move Burke out of the picture never taking time to get information about what really happened.

Unfortunately these mistakes were overshadowed by BPD.

tumble,
Patsy knew JonBenet snacked pineapple since it was her that served it. It was forgotten about since it was an event divorced from the actual scene of her death, underlining that the person who killed her may not have known about the pineapple. The big mistake was the size-12's since no intruder knew about them. Patsy personally purchased these from Bloomingdales and told the investigators this. The remaining six-pairs vanished only to be discovered in a Ramsey packing crate at a later date. These facts link the Ramseys to the crime-scene in way the fibers don't, and offer the inevitable conclusion that the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene fabricated by the parents.

 

[maya.morgen]

DeeDee249,
From memory, not always a reliable source, but was Burkes fingerprints not also on the pineapple bowl?

Also that JonBenet and Burke had shared beds, was no secret, probably not even to John and Patsy. So why would Burke need to kill JonBenet? If it was an accidental death on his part, then why do the parents need such a bizarre crime-scene staging, a 911 call would have sufficed?

As a resident that night Burke is on the suspect list, but at ten-years old, and relatively naive about the ways of the world, the complexity of the crime-scene staging was beyond him, and with little motive he moves off the suspect radar.


IMO, with zero evidence of an intruder, and Burke representing maybe 5% of a risk, this places both parents firmly in the frame!


.

From memory, not always a reliable source, but was Burkes fingerprints not also on the pineapple bowl?

yep,they were

 

[DeeDee249]

yep,they were

I don't think they were. His prints were on the glass with the teabag in it, though, right next to the bowl. I'll try to find it.

 

[DeeDee249]

As I Google it, I see several articles stating that it was PRs prints only, and several others stating both PR and BR.
But in Haney's interview with PR, where he shows her photos of the bowl and asks her about it- he mentions the pineapple in her digestive tract and the pineapple in the bowl- PR denies putting the bowl there. But Haney tells her that the prints on the bowl belong to "one of the two of you" and he is referring to PR and JR, NOT to BR. Then PR says she "can't recall" putting the bowl on the table.
Acandyrose had this, it is from the deposition with Tom Haney in 1998. It is listed with all the interviews as "Interview with PR 1998".

 

[Ames]

I don't think they were. His prints were on the glass with the teabag in it, though, right next to the bowl. I'll try to find it.

You are correct...Burkes prints were on the "water glass" with the tea bag in it. (I cannot even imagine a nine year old drinking tea, with a teabag in a glass like that, my six year old HATES tea).

 

[DeeDee249]

You are correct...Burkes prints were on the "water glass" with the tea bag in it. (I cannot even imagine a nine year old drinking tea, with a teabag in a glass like that, my six year old HATES tea).

Some kids like sweet tea- either with or without milk. I used to take it to grade school in my thermos!
People drink it different ways- I serve tea in a mug or cup, but my German friends serve me tea in a tall glass. I like it that way, actually, it stays hot longer.

 

[Ames]

Some kids like sweet tea- either with or without milk. I used to take it to grade school in my thermos!
People drink it different ways- I serve tea in a mug or cup, but my German friends serve me tea in a tall glass. I like it that way, actually, it stays hot longer.

Okay, I must have been under a rock for awhile...because I have never, ever heard of sweet tea with MILK! I drink Sweetened ICED TEA from a glass.....is that weird?? I couldn't imagine drinking hot tea....I drink my coffee hot, though. Yes, I was born and raised in the south! Just in case you are wondering.

 

[JMO8778]

Okay, I must have been under a rock for awhile...because I have never, ever heard of sweet tea with MILK! I drink Sweetened ICED TEA from a glass.....is that weird?? I couldn't imagine drinking hot tea....I drink my coffee hot, though. Yes, I was born and raised in the south! Just in case you are wondering.

not at all...you have great taste! I do the same.When I was younger,I didn't know anyone ever made it without sugar.LOL.

 

[Ames]

not at all...you have great taste! I do the same.When I was younger,I didn't know anyone ever made it without sugar.LOL.

Me either. I used to drink nothing but Raspberry Iced Tea when we lived in Montana. If you went to a restuarant and ordered Iced Tea, they would look at you like you were an alien.