Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[BBB167893]

Really??? Wow- seems like an awful way to make a living.
Appreciate your candid opinion icedtea.
Seems like if JBR did take a tumble and lain at the bottom of the stair case unconscious and possibly seizing- PR could not have imagined a child needing a w/c to win the pageants she had planned for her daughter. In this case scenario- I could see PR justifying herself in other actions.
Point taken, though.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If I thought that's what happened, I can definitely see PR believing that a "mercy killing" was in order.

 

[UKGuy]

I have serious issues with any claim that a 9 yo boy strangled a 6 yo girl other than by freak accident due to the force required.

The autopsy is NOT indicative of any attempt at manual strangulation, and the word manual is never used at all, per pages 1, 3, and 8 of the 9 pages. The extensive report only describes "ligature strangulation" (page 1, Final Diagnosis), "deep ligature furrow" (page 3), and there were no fractures of the thyroid cartilage, cricoid cartilage or hyoid bone (page 8).

While the specific immediate cause of JBR's death was "asphyxia by strangulation" (page 1), the additional "associated with craniocerebral trauma" (page1) is a reference to the 8.5-inch long skull fracture along the right side including a displaced rectangular shaped area of skull bone 1.75 X .5 inches in the posteroparietal area (described in detail on page 7), injuries which together would also have been shortly fatal without immediate medical care, and may have been hopeless given the level of brain trauma (due to large subdural hematoma pressure on brain combined with injury to brain causing swelling, all causing compression of main cerebral arteries and perhaps even brain stem compression resulting in stroke, brain tissue death, convulsions, cessation of breathing and death JMO).

JMO It is far more likely that an enraged adult (PR) hit JBR in the head with a blunt object, something like a heavy flashlight, with enough force to displace (smash in) an area skull bone, and cause that huge, long skull fracture, and then the strangulation was some attempt to both end suffering and stage the scene by PR and/or JR.

SandyQLS,

I have serious issues with any claim that a 9 yo boy strangled a 6 yo girl other than by freak accident due to the force required.

Many people have issues with a BDI theory, but its the most consistent theory out there, it even explains the prosecuters behavior including post GJ phase.

While the specific immediate cause of JBR's death was "asphyxia by strangulation" (page 1),

Which does not rule out a manual strangulation, very little force would be required to manually asphyxiate JonBenet, particularly as I suggest JonBenet lost conciousness due to manual pressure on her vagus nerve.

The autopsy is only the medical examiner's opinion regarding the cause of death, the examiner is not omnicient, just because its not mentioned does not mean it never happened.

Nearly everyhing to do with JonBenet's presence in the wine-cellar has an aspect of staging about it, from her internal injuries, to her clothing, I see no reason to presume that the ligature asphyxiation might represent anything other than an attempt to stage away a prior manual asphyxiation?

Elsewhere I have suggested that JonBenet's head injury was a failed attempt at staging, since it produced no visible signs of death?

Here is my reasoning regarding JonBenet's injuries: there are four i.e.

0. Manual Strangulation.

1. Internal Injury

2. Head Injury

3. Ligature Asphyxiation

If you look closely at JonBenet's neck, just beneath the ligature, there are what appear to be crescent shaped marks possibly representing nail marks?

John Douglas, "Why Killers Pose Their Victims: Putting Bodies on Display, October 7, 1999

"It is not unusual in homicidal ligature strangulation to find that there is more than one ligature mark, each of varying intensity and crossing each other, in parallel or at an angle to each other. Together with such an appearance, one quite commonly sees abrasions caused by movement of a ligature across the neck, or associated fingernail marks, either from the victim attempting to remove the ligature or (together with finger- tip bruising) from the assailant attempting to secure the ligature and/or restrain the neck from moving or even attempting manual strangulation."

Anyway most people assume that the cause of the abrasions lying beneath the ligature furrow are the result of some kind of interplay between the ligature and JonBenet, yet due to her head injury JonBenet is out cold. So you should really just see a neat ligature furrow with a minimal amount of abrasions and any contusions, we do not see this why?

This is why I suggest JonBenet may have initially ben manually strangled resulting in most of the marks that lie beneath the ligature furrow. The ligature asphyxiation was done to obscure the latter.

If JonBenet was discovered with either a head injury or manual strangulation, but was still alive, then phoning for medical assistance might have saved her life. This was not done presumably due to her Internal Injury?

Its likely the parents were unaware of JonBenet's Head Injury which was only discovered during the autopsy.

Ive numbered the Manual Strangulation as 0. since strictly its not required, but it does not make sense for a parent to construct a complex ligature asphyxiation complete with a piece of paintbrush handle, unless its staging?

.

 

[BoldBear]

I connect the bruising on her shoulder to the bruising on her neck. If they are connected, then there's no manual strangulation before the ligature asphyxiation.

 

[otg]

There are no fingernail marks on JonBenet’s neck. There are no finger or hand bruises on JonBenet’s neck. I won’t post here any of the very graphic photos available to anyone who wishes to view them by simply searching Google images, but neither of these two signs of manual strangulation are present on her neck. They are very distinctive in appearance. What some seem to think are fingernail marks are agminated (grouped together) petechiae and do not fit the pattern of the ends of a person’s fingers.

It takes from 6 to 12 pounds of pressure to shut off the flow of blood to the brain through arteries. It takes only 3 pounds of pressure to block the flow of blood from the brain through the veins. However to compress the esophageal airway and asphyxiate a person, it takes up to 33 pounds of pressure to completely block the air. If OTOH the mouth and nose are blocked, it doesn’t take as much pressure; but it does take enough pressure that the victim usually has bruising of the nose, the frenulum, the lips, the tongue, or possibly even damaged or loosened teeth. Dr. Meyer knew to look for that and stated so in the AR:

The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous material. The teeth are native and in good repair. The tongue is smooth, pink-tan and granular. No buccal mucosal trauma is seen. The frenulum is intact.
​

While disruption of the normal function of the vagus nerve is a possibility and the amount of pressure required can’t be predicted, it is a very rare occurrence and not very likely. It too though would most likely require enough pressure to cause bruising somewhere on the neck unlike anything apparent on JonBenet’s.

Conclusion: There is no evidence of manual strangulation. Also, JonBenet did not struggle to remove the ligature when it was tightened -- meaning that she was either unconscious or that her hands were restrained in some way (not the cord found on her wrists).

 

[SandyQLS]

There are no fingernail marks on JonBenet’s neck. There are no finger or hand bruises on JonBenet’s neck. I won’t post here any of the very graphic photos available to anyone who wishes to view them by simply searching Google images, but neither of these two signs of manual strangulation are present on her neck. They are very distinctive in appearance. What some seem to think are fingernail marks are agminated (grouped together) petechiae and do not fit the pattern of the ends of a person’s fingers.

It takes from 6 to 12 pounds of pressure to shut off the flow of blood to the brain through arteries. It takes only 3 pounds of pressure to block the flow of blood from the brain through the veins. However to compress the esophageal airway and asphyxiate a person, it takes up to 33 pounds of pressure to completely block the air. If OTOH the mouth and nose are blocked, it doesn’t take as much pressure; but it does take enough pressure that the victim usually has bruising of the nose, the frenulum, the lips, the tongue, or possibly even damaged or loosened teeth. Dr. Meyer knew to look for that and stated so in the AR:

The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous material. The teeth are native and in good repair. The tongue is smooth, pink-tan and granular. No buccal mucosal trauma is seen. The frenulum is intact.
​

While disruption of the normal function of the vagus nerve is a possibility and the amount of pressure required can’t be predicted, it is a very rare occurrence and not very likely. It too though would most likely require enough pressure to cause bruising somewhere on the neck unlike anything apparent on JonBenet’s.

Conclusion: There is no evidence of manual strangulation. Also, JonBenet did not struggle to remove the ligature when it was tightened -- meaning that she was either unconscious or that her hands were restrained in some way (not the cord found on her wrists).

Thank you for this very informative post.

UKGuy - I did read your lengthy response. I think that poster otg quoted has explained it far better than I ever could.

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you for this very informative post.

UKGuy - I did read your lengthy response. I think that poster otg quoted has explained it far better than I ever could.

SandyQLS,
Really, from what I read otg, simply denies there is any evidence to support a manual strangulation, that's not quite the same as generating a theory which explains the forensic evidence!


.

 

[UKGuy]

There are no fingernail marks on JonBenet’s neck. There are no finger or hand bruises on JonBenet’s neck. I won’t post here any of the very graphic photos available to anyone who wishes to view them by simply searching Google images, but neither of these two signs of manual strangulation are present on her neck. They are very distinctive in appearance. What some seem to think are fingernail marks are agminated (grouped together) petechiae and do not fit the pattern of the ends of a person’s fingers.

It takes from 6 to 12 pounds of pressure to shut off the flow of blood to the brain through arteries. It takes only 3 pounds of pressure to block the flow of blood from the brain through the veins. However to compress the esophageal airway and asphyxiate a person, it takes up to 33 pounds of pressure to completely block the air. If OTOH the mouth and nose are blocked, it doesn’t take as much pressure; but it does take enough pressure that the victim usually has bruising of the nose, the frenulum, the lips, the tongue, or possibly even damaged or loosened teeth. Dr. Meyer knew to look for that and stated so in the AR:

The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous material. The teeth are native and in good repair. The tongue is smooth, pink-tan and granular. No buccal mucosal trauma is seen. The frenulum is intact.
​

While disruption of the normal function of the vagus nerve is a possibility and the amount of pressure required can’t be predicted, it is a very rare occurrence and not very likely. It too though would most likely require enough pressure to cause bruising somewhere on the neck unlike anything apparent on JonBenet’s.

Conclusion: There is no evidence of manual strangulation. Also, JonBenet did not struggle to remove the ligature when it was tightened -- meaning that she was either unconscious or that her hands were restrained in some way (not the cord found on her wrists).

otg,
Your conclusion is based an an absence of evidence not an encouraging sign in a staged homicide.

While disruption of the normal function of the vagus nerve is a possibility and the amount of pressure required can’t be predicted, it is a very rare occurrence and not very likely.

Yet patently not something you can rule out, it being rare might be accounted for by its lack of visibility in terms of forensic evidence.

Conclusion: There is no evidence of manual strangulation. Also, JonBenet did not struggle to remove the ligature when it was tightened -- meaning that she was either unconscious or that her hands were restrained in some way (not the cord found on her wrists).

BBM: so why did the R's feel there was a requirement to asphyxiate JonBenet in the said manner, any of the methods you recount would have been sufficient?

Like I say I reckon the garrote *advertiser censored* ligature/paintbrush handle was applied to cover up a prior manual strangulation, else why bother?

.

 

[AndHence]

Wasn't it Dr. Wecht's theory that she had her shirt twisted around causing her to put her hand up in an attempt to free herself? I haven't read anything to suggest that she struggled at the time she was garroted; she was almost certainly unconscious by that point.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*
Like I say I reckon the garrote *advertiser censored* ligature/paintbrush handle was applied to cover up a prior manual strangulation, else why bother?

.

Person A may have said to Person B "This [head injury] is all your fault!" Then Person B would've felt guilty enough to get his hands dirty too.

 

[UKGuy]

Person A may have said to Person B "This [head injury] is all your fault!" Then Person B would've felt guilty enough to get his hands dirty too.

icedtea4me,
The big Q is did anyone other than the person who delivered the head blow know it had happened, certainly investigators etc, were ignorant right up to the autopsy where it was revealed as Coroner Myer peeled back JonBenet's scalp.

The ligature asphyxiation looks like staging to me, if you are going to kidnap JonBenet, then asphyxiation is not on the scorecard, otherwise why bother with an abduction?

There must have been some compelling reason for someone to asphyxiate JonBenet, since she was still alive and presumably breathing, the only reason I can think of, is to deny JonBenet any opportunity to voice her testimony?

It cannot have been due to prior sexual abuse since depending on which theory you prefer, JonBenet suffered either a staged sexual assault or an acute sexual assault, either of which was hidden beneath her clothing?

If you think about the wine-cellar crime-scene it is a contradiction in terms, since the RN says JonBenet was abducted for ransom, yet she has a garrote around her neck which patently denies abduction as a motive.

.

 

[Tadpole12]

A musical interlude?

[video=youtube;FjDX9ofeMqo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjDX9ofeMqo[/video]

 

[tweezybird]

OMG! I'm speechless.

 

[Tadpole12]

Goosebumps?

Facebook AV the closet clairvoyant:
https://www.facebook.com/Amy-Venezia-The-Closet-Clairvoyant-794569407248208/
- Conversations With Dead People: A Medium's Session With JonBenet Ramsey (Part 2). “She's telling me that she didn't do anything wrong. I think she's saying ...

P1: http://thoughtcatalog.com/m-j-pack/...-mediums-session-with-jonbenet-ramsey-part-1/

P2: http://thoughtcatalog.com/m-j-pack/...-mediums-session-with-jonbenet-ramsey-part-2/

 

[AndHence]

Goosebumps?

Facebook AV the closet clairvoyant:
https://www.facebook.com/Amy-Venezia-The-Closet-Clairvoyant-794569407248208/
- Conversations With Dead People: A Medium's Session With JonBenet Ramsey (Part 2). “She's telling me that she didn't do anything wrong. I think she's saying ...

P1: http://thoughtcatalog.com/m-j-pack/...-mediums-session-with-jonbenet-ramsey-part-1/

P2: http://thoughtcatalog.com/m-j-pack/...-mediums-session-with-jonbenet-ramsey-part-2/

Lol, what a load of malarkey.

 

[Tadpole12]

P3: http://thoughtcatalog.com/m-j-pack/...-mediums-session-with-jonbenet-ramsey-part-3/

Malarkey.
But within the sessions, well at least AV, MJP, and the spirits have a good knowledge base of the JBR case: ST's book as a guideline..
P3, the 'red lipstick' photos and the white turtleneck. creeeepy.

 

[BoldBear]

This is fiction disguised as nonfiction:

Jonbenet's a little girl and thinks like a little girl. Adults are too serious. -- Jonbenet's spirit won't give one shred of evidence that can be fact checked.

Patsy's in denial and won't face the truth. -- Patsy's too crazy to give any actual evidence to the psychic.

The psychic has her bases covered. Remember, faith healing only works if you truly believe. There's always an out.

I couldn't finish reading this story. If there are true psychics out there, stories like this destroy their credibility.

 

[singularity]

It's definitely garbage...knew the basics of the case and responded accordingly.

Something ominous a few days before her murder....obviously the Dec. 23rd party.

Jonbenet being abused...very few doubt this

Patsy being in a rage...again...very few doubt this

List goes on

 

[Tadpole12]

P4: http://thoughtcatalog.com/m-j-pack/...-mediums-session-with-jonbenet-ramsey-part-4/

Session ends as PDI, "walking in on [her] daughter and ... "

'the candlestick type of lamp'
http://www.acandyrose.com/047parentsbedroom.jpg

 

[singularity]

The main problem with their "story" is that they're trying to cover too many bases while at the same time claiming to be narrowing it down to what really happened. They touch on many contradictory things.

Having said that, a few good observations but nothing new. I've seen sleuthers say the same things but much better and more in depth. I have also wondered if a lot of the dysfunction in the Patsy-Jonbenet relationship revolved around jealousy/envy of Jonbenet from Patsy. Jonbenet was young, beautiful, had her whole life ahead of her while Patsy was a middle aged woman who had recently went into remission but knew it would likely come back. Patsy's sand was getting low in her hourglass. Then factor in the abuse and how some mothers blame the child and in certain cases are even jealous of that....the girl is getting all the attention from the boys/men and the dysfunctional mother cant handle it.

While we will never have all the answers or know what REALLY went on in that house, I will always feel sorry for Jonbenet. On the outside it probably appeared she had it all. Rich parents, a beautiful home, a bright future, some have said she was a spoiled brat, etc. but I don't think she ever lived a real childhood. Its almost as if she lived the life of a living doll.....a toy. A toy for the women in her life to play dress up with for the pageant world and to show off and a different kind of toy for the boys/men in her life. I cant even imagine the confusion and mixed emotions she must have felt at that age.

The final years of her too short life were the brewing of a perfect storm which reached its apex that Christmas night, Having said that, I also believe that even if something had changed the course of events that fateful night, it was eventually going to happen anyways. I think there was so much chaos surrounding her that it had long went past the point of no return.


As far as the lamp goes, its certainly possible. I did like how they mentioned "hidden in plain sight" but that is true of the entire crime scene, not just potential murder weapons.

 

[UKGuy]

The main problem with their "story" is that they're trying to cover too many bases while at the same time claiming to be narrowing it down to what really happened. They touch on many contradictory things.

Having said that, a few good observations but nothing new. I've seen sleuthers say the same things but much better and more in depth. I have also wondered if a lot of the dysfunction in the Patsy-Jonbenet relationship revolved around jealousy/envy of Jonbenet from Patsy. Jonbenet was young, beautiful, had her whole life ahead of her while Patsy was a middle aged woman who had recently went into remission but knew it would likely come back. Patsy's sand was getting low in her hourglass. Then factor in the abuse and how some mothers blame the child and in certain cases are even jealous of that....the girl is getting all the attention from the boys/men and the dysfunctional mother cant handle it.

While we will never have all the answers or know what REALLY went on in that house, I will always feel sorry for Jonbenet. On the outside it probably appeared she had it all. Rich parents, a beautiful home, a bright future, some have said she was a spoiled brat, etc. but I don't think she ever lived a real childhood. Its almost as if she lived the life of a living doll.....a toy. A toy for the women in her life to play dress up with for the pageant world and to show off and a different kind of toy for the boys/men in her life. I cant even imagine the confusion and mixed emotions she must have felt at that age.

The final years of her too short life were the brewing of a perfect storm which reached its apex that Christmas night, Having said that, I also believe that even if something had changed the course of events that fateful night, it was eventually going to happen anyways. I think there was so much chaos surrounding her that it had long went past the point of no return.


As far as the lamp goes, its certainly possible. I did like how they mentioned "hidden in plain sight" but that is true of the entire crime scene, not just potential murder weapons.

singularity,
From a UK perspective Patsy's relationship with JonBenet and her desire to motivate and move her forward via pageants, etc does not look much different from mainstream America.

The big Q is did Patsy know JonBenet was being abused, if so, why did she go along with it?

Its possible JonBenet was being abused by all the males in the R's household?

.