Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? POLL

  • John

    Votes: 124 8.4%
  • Patsy

    Votes: 547 37.2%
  • Burke

    Votes: 340 23.1%
  • An Intruder, (anyone including someone known to them)

    Votes: 459 31.2%

  • Total voters
    1,470
Status
Not open for further replies.
I just had a really creepy thought. Children who are abused will often wet the sheets in order to ward off the abuser. What happens when the abuser is out of town on business? Does the child still wet the bed? If that person is out of town for several nights, would the wetting of the bed happen less and less the longer the abuser is out of town?
Great question.

This particular story is so baffling that the scenario described above may not have happened in her life. If she had multiple abusers(and I think she did), she may never have reached that point. If she didn't have multiple abusers she most certainly had multiple people(Santa and JAR for starters) with an unhealthy interest in her. I'd love the original source on the JAR-JB info and Santa wanted to see her so bad he'd resort to showing up on regular days dressed normally and claiming to be someone else.... either a friend or relative of Santa just so he could take her for walks. That's a red flag waving right there and Patsy should've been tarred and feathered for allowing such a thing.
 
That 23rd party had an ominious event. I highly doubt its a coincidence she was murdered two days after this party. I have always believed that one of the key factprs in solving this crime is finding out what happened that night.
.

I agree a hundred percent. I can imagine the child dialing the number and either staying quiet because she froze or staying quiet because an adult entered and discovered what she was doing. it could be the exact same case with an adult making the call. The key factor here are the cops being shooshed away without even opening the door, as if something really bad was going on inside that couldn't be seen.

And as you pointed out, two days later the child is murdered. Something happened in that party that made the involved subject (or subjects) realize that the child had perhaps reached her limit and was bound to speak at any point. Hence, action was taken two days later...
 
http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_30041...rged-boulder-child-*advertiser censored*-case

Here is a link you can access by Charlie Brenner with the Daily Camera.
Please remove if best served in the media only thread. Just thought it might be easier to have it here for reference.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Can't wait to see how this plays out, I just watched a piece that said he was arrested a while ago and had a picture of her on him at the time. Why wouldn't this have been looked into then? Was he on anyone elses radar up until now? Does Gary Howard Oliva have any connection to the family? He would have been early 30's at the time...

SHASPE,
The guy is a fruitcake and is only making the news because its open season on the JonBenet case, the networks need content to pad out their stories.

I'd love to see a documentary analyse why the parents were indicted as suspects in JonBenet's homicide, run over the stuff in the wine-cellar and in the rest of the basement, i.e. where was JonBenet first assaulted upstairs in her bedroom , the breakfast bar, or down in the basement?

Another possible example of news padding is the Robin Williams story in the National Enquirer: he was really killed because he was in debt to drug dealers, police allegedly, glossed over lots of forensic evidence, so when it came to the autopsy it was less than complete, so to hide any prior mistakes. Once I saw that it was PIs being quoted the story lost its credibility.

Also they seem to have found some skeletons in MJ's cupboards ...

.
 
I agree a hundred percent. I can imagine the child dialing the number and either staying quiet because she froze or staying quiet because an adult entered and discovered what she was doing. it could be the exact same case with an adult making the call. The key factor here are the cops being shooshed away without even opening the door, as if something really bad was going on inside that couldn't be seen.

That is if a child called 911 or Fleet. There were a lot of people in that house and they had phones on different levels. By the way the officer was 'shooshed' away, I can't help but feel that the person who dialed 911 knew about it and left specific instructions to get rid of the officer. It's two days before Christmas. You're having a large Christmas party and you don't answer the door during the event; instead, you leave it closed and don't talk to the person at the door face to face. None of that makes sense.

From the front entry path, the officer could see into the sunroom (and from there into the dining room). He can see through the living room window. There were people in the house.

The conclusion I'm jumping to is that you don't open the door because the purpose for the call would be embarrassing to the family. One of the Ramseys placed that call. There's a 1 in 4 chance that was JB, but I don't think it was her.
 
Great question.

This particular story is so baffling that the scenario described above may not have happened in her life. If she had multiple abusers(and I think she did), she may never have reached that point. If she didn't have multiple abusers she most certainly had multiple people(Santa and JAR for starters) with an unhealthy interest in her. I'd love the original source on the JAR-JB info and Santa wanted to see her so bad he'd resort to showing up on regular days dressed normally and claiming to be someone else.... either a friend or relative of Santa just so he could take her for walks. That's a red flag waving right there and Patsy should've been tarred and feathered for allowing such a thing.

Re Santa Bill From Patsy's 6/98 interview (no mention of walks):

2 I mean the year prior he came
3 after -- to our house after Christmas, not in
4 Santa Claus regalia, just in his street clothes,
5 you know, and he had a gingerbread house, and
6 he -- and I looked at him and I am going, "what
7 are you doing here, you're going to spoil the
8 surprise."
9 And he said, he said, oh, aren't
10 Santa Clause is Brett or Bill, he told the kids,
11 and he said my son made this gingerbread house.
12 His son was a baker down at a cake place down in
13 the (INAUDIBLE) Shopping Center, and he made
14 gingerbread houses.
15 And he said, you know, I have this
16 gingerbread house, and I think -- thought since
17 you all were into Christmas, I would bring it to
18 you all. And so he told JonBenet and Burke that
19 he was Santa Claus's brother, and that he looked
20 like Santa Claus, except in his jeans and
21 whatever. He said I am Santa Claus's brother
22 and I herd his reindeer for him during the
23 summers. You know. And --
24 TRIP DeMUTH: That was the
25 Christmas before?
0192
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Before, yes.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: And how long after
3 Christmas did he show up as Santa Claus's
4 brother?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: A couple of days
6 later.
 
person described seeing an inappropriate picture of Jonbenét when she entered the parents bedroom.
I wish I could remember the exact source of this info but it was too many years ago but I assume one of the people here for years might remember....

Supposedly when they seized various items in the Charlevoix home, one of the photographs taken was of Jonbenet on the bed wearing nothing but cowboy boots. It gave me a chill. I had always thought someone in that family had a cowgirl or boot fetish and hearing about that just reinforced it.

If that info is/was not supposed to be posted in the open, moderators should delete it. LIke I said, I don't remember the exact source. Too many years/drugs ago.


I agree a hundred percent. I can imagine the child dialing the number and either staying quiet because she froze or staying quiet because an adult entered and discovered what she was doing. it could be the exact same case with an adult making the call. The key factor here are the cops being shooshed away without even opening the door, as if something really bad was going on inside that couldn't be seen.

And as you pointed out, two days later the child is murdered. Something happened in that party that made the involved subject (or subjects) realize that the child had perhaps reached her limit and was bound to speak at any point. Hence, action was taken two days later...
THis is speculation obviously but I always felt that someone was doing something to her and one of the other guests walked in on the assult in progress, and out of shock instinctively dialed 911 but then hung up out of fear or someone else in the house hanging the phone up on them.


Also agree that it likely led to her murder.


Re Santa Bill From Patsy's 6/98 interview (no mention of walks):
I may have confused it with one of their other discussions about Santa. It might have even been John who said it. Not going through those right now looking for it.


I do find it interesting that you think his unhealthy interest in a 5-6 year old girl is ok as long as it doesn't include a walk. Under no circumstances whatsoever is what Patsy just described normal. Any man who will go to such lengths to hang out with a child needs to be several light years away from that child. Period.
 
Santa Bill was paid to play Santa. This was a good gig for him. I have a friend who flies out to California every year because he has a full grey beard and makes a great Santa. He gets paid rather well for the jobs. The Ramseys pointed the finger at Santa Bill. If he had spent any real time alone with JB, don't you think John or Patsy would have been the first ones to say it?

A suitcase and cowboy boots were found in the Charlevoix home. This was found mid week by a housekeeper after a weekend wine and cheese party.

Could you please do a little research before posting outrageous facts?
 
Santa Bill was paid to play Santa. This was a good gig for him. I have a friend who flies out to California every year because he has a full grey beard and makes a great Santa. He gets paid rather well for the jobs. The Ramseys pointed the finger at Santa Bill. If he had spent any real time alone with JB, don't you think John or Patsy would have been the first ones to say it?

A suitcase and cowboy boots were found in the Charlevoix home. This was found mid week by a housekeeper after a weekend wine and cheese party.

Could you please do a little research before posting outrageous facts?
Does your friend go to these childrens homes after Christmas pretending to be Santa's brother to get close to them after the holiday? I highly doubt it.

JOhn did insinuate that it was possible for Santa and Jonbenet to prearrange a secret meeting and that she'd go off with him. I think that's absurd but he certainly floated the idea.

I know what was found in the Charlevoix home.

JUst because I don't post every single section of the transcripts while having a discussion doesn't mean I haven't done research.

I'm actually glad you didn't quote that section of my post. I'm removing it. It's clearly something that wasn't meant to get out on a public forum. Heard about it from someone many years ago before I left the sites. I hesitated when posting it......now I realize why, and not because it's "outrageous".


IT wont allow me to edit it. Moderators, can you remove that section....quickly.
 
Does your friend go to these childrens homes after Christmas pretending to be Santa's brother to get close to them after the holiday? I highly doubt it.

JOhn did insinuate that it was possible for Santa and Jonbenet to prearrange a secret meeting and that she'd go off with him. I think that's absurd but he certainly floated the idea.

I know what was found in the Charlevoix home.

JUst because I don't post every single section of the transcripts while having a discussion doesn't mean I haven't done research.

I'm actually glad you didn't quote that section of my post. I'm removing it. It's clearly something that wasn't meant to get out on a public forum. Heard about it from someone many years ago before I left the sites. I hesitated when posting it......now I realize why, and not because it's "outrageous".


IT wont allow me to edit it. Moderators, can you remove that section....quickly.


singularity,
The search of Charlevoix was as a result of the album of JonBenet photographs found dumped in the basement alerting investigators to the fact that someone had an unhealthy obsession with JonBenet!

The Charlevoix home was explicitly searched for underage visual images in whatsoever format and the results of the search, multiple pages, were redacted by the judge who released the search warrant. Excuses were made that it was all about handwriting exemplars, nonsense of course, since the Boulder house was drowning in handwritten material. One item listed as being removed from the Charlevoix home was a photo album.

At the age of 4, JonBenet entered and won her first beauty contest as Little Miss Charlevoix. Patsy served on some local pageant panel, so for Patsy the pageants were a lifestyle.

.
 
FrankieB,
The photo album found in the basement was alleged to contain many inappropriate pictures of JonBenet, patently this is why it was placed down there.

Potentially part of some staging or just evidence removal, you decide?

.

Thank you for this information UKGuy! I didn't know a search warrant had been placed on the Charlevoix home. The mere thought of that photo album is chilling. However the speculation here is how truly inappropriate those pictures were, if they had portrayed any child *advertiser censored* arrests would have been in order right? or does the Ramsey power extend so far as to dodge that bullet?
 
Thank you for this information UKGuy! I didn't know a search warrant had been placed on the Charlevoix home. The mere thought of that photo album is chilling. However the speculation here is how truly inappropriate those pictures were, if they had portrayed any child *advertiser censored* arrests would have been in order right? or does the Ramsey power extend so far as to dodge that bullet?

FrankieB,
On any illegal images we just do not know what was found! There is only one circumstance where if any were found and it did not lead to any charges, that is the photographer was beneath the age of criminal responsibility. From memory Charlevoix was searched on two separate occasions.

The album of JonBenet photographs found down in the basement are a red flag, they tell us someone in the Ramsey household had an unhealthy interest in JonBenet, and that they knew this so dumped them into the basement!

.
 
The 911 call that was placed on December 23rd from the Ramsey home has been discussed a lot in the past because it seems like too much of a coincidence to not be related to a murder just two days later. This is especially true since it has never been fully explained and the circumstances around it are just plain hinky. I’m going to bump two threads from the past where this has been discussed -- not that anyone will find an answer to any of the questions, but so we can all consider what has already been speculated.

The Ramseys in their book implicated Fleet White as the person who mistakenly made the call:

During the party Fleet White used our phone to make a series of calls, trying to get some medicine to his mother in a hospital in Aspen, Colorado. Apparently he dialed wrong and got 911. The police called back, but after checking with Fleet and the rest of the people in the house, Susan Stine informed them that the call was a mistake. The 911 call still remains somewhat of a mystery.

TMK, White has never spoken publicly about whether or not he had anything to do with it, knew anything about it, or (if he was responsible) why he dialed 9-1-1. Speculation (unconfirmed) about his dialing it has included the following:

  • Wanting to reach “Information” at 411 for a number he didn’t have, he instead mis-dialed a 9 instead of a 4, and then realizing his mistake, hung up.
  • He was accustomed to dialing a 9 first to get an “outside line” (as is typically done in an office with internal extensions), then a 1 for Long Distance Direct Dialing (LDDD), then the area code (or alternately that he accidentally punched the 1 twice before the area code because there are no area codes in Colorado that begin with a 1).
  • He was making a call to a drug firm in another country using International Direct Dialing (IDD) where one first dials “011” and then the country code, but he unintentionally hit a 9 instead of a 0.
Each of these scenarios hinge on his mis-dialing somehow, then hanging up without saying anything to the responding 911 operator.

Personally, I can’t imagine White doing something like this -- from what we know about him, he’s not the type of person who leaves loose ends to anything he does. Neither can I understand a party going on where the front door isn’t opened for policemen to find out why they are there. Instead you have a guest at the party respond and speak to them through a cracked door refusing to let them in while that person goes around the house asking who called 911? It’s also strange that the police didn’t insist on speaking to the person who made the call to verify the information given to them. What if there had been an emergency that the person refusing to let them in was trying to hide? What if an intruder (yeah, right :giggle:) was holding a gun to the person at the door telling them to get rid of the cops?
All very hinky. I wish Fleet White would at least address this publicly. :sigh:
 
Re Santa Bill From Patsy's 6/98 interview (no mention of walks):

2 I mean the year prior he came
3 after -- to our house after Christmas, not in
4 Santa Claus regalia, just in his street clothes,
5 you know, and he had a gingerbread house, and
6 he -- and I looked at him and I am going, "what
7 are you doing here, you're going to spoil the
8 surprise."
9 And he said, he said, oh, aren't
10 Santa Clause is Brett or Bill, he told the kids,
11 and he said my son made this gingerbread house.
12 His son was a baker down at a cake place down in
13 the (INAUDIBLE) Shopping Center, and he made
14 gingerbread houses.
15 And he said, you know, I have this
16 gingerbread house, and I think -- thought since
17 you all were into Christmas, I would bring it to
18 you all. And so he told JonBenet and Burke that
19 he was Santa Claus's brother, and that he looked
20 like Santa Claus, except in his jeans and
21 whatever. He said I am Santa Claus's brother
22 and I herd his reindeer for him during the
23 summers. You know. And --
24 TRIP DeMUTH: That was the
25 Christmas before?
0192
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Before, yes.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: And how long after
3 Christmas did he show up as Santa Claus's
4 brother?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: A couple of days
6 later.

Thanks, Cranberry,
Yes it's exactly like UKguy mentions. This is the 20th year anniversary and there will be lots of recycled suspects.

The Rs pointed the finger at many people and this was accomplished by innuendo. For example:
  • FW’s wife was from California and likely owned a stun gun. FW was a sailor and probably had cord as was used in the ligature.
  • Santa Bill brought over a ginger bread house, and his wife wrote a play discussing a kidnapping.
  • JM was a disgruntled employee and a likely candidate for revenge.
  • Their housekeeper needed money AND had a key.
  • Helgoth owned Hi-Tec boots.
  • GO (the latest mentioned here) was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic according to a writer at CBS. He seemed to have a fixation on JB, however he was mentally disturbed and the likelihood of him breaking in and pulling off the perfect crime is spectacularly non-existent. Plus his DNA did not match.
 
singularity,
The search of Charlevoix was as a result of the album of JonBenet photographs found dumped in the basement alerting investigators to the fact that someone had an unhealthy obsession with JonBenet!

The Charlevoix home was explicitly searched for underage visual images in whatsoever format and the results of the search, multiple pages, were redacted by the judge who released the search warrant. Excuses were made that it was all about handwriting exemplars, nonsense of course, since the Boulder house was drowning in handwritten material. One item listed as being removed from the Charlevoix home was a photo album.

At the age of 4, JonBenet entered and won her first beauty contest as Little Miss Charlevoix. Patsy served on some local pageant panel, so for Patsy the pageants were a lifestyle.

.
This guy ^ knows what he's talking about. UK and I may disagree on the Burke angle but he's my favorite poster here. Instead of claiming something an "outrage" or telling people to do more research who have researched the case up, down, and sideways, he likes to stick to the facts when discussing the case instead of trying to talk down to people.

Newcomers to the case/forum should pay close attention to his posts.

UK wasn't it a pile of photographs in the basement and not actually contained in a photo album? I realize there were photo albums but when it comes to the pictures being discussed, I'm pretty sure they were tossed down there quickly and were not in family photo albums. I also believe that second cigar box that Fleet White noticed and John tried to distance himself from contained photographs of Jonbenet, NOT cigars.

Frankie, there were many inappropriate photos of her. It's sickening and what makes it even worse is they dodged the issue in the transcripts....although there are redactions so maybe we just aren't privy to their explanations.
 
Could someone please point me to the source for these inappropriate photos? How about a reliable source too?
 
The mere thought of that photo album is chilling. However the speculation here is how truly inappropriate those pictures were, if they had portrayed any child *advertiser censored* arrests would have been in order right? or does the Ramsey power extend so far as to dodge that bullet?
Chiiling indeed.

Having said that, what exactly constitutes child *advertiser censored*? Obviously the waters get very muddy on this issue, even in extreme cases where people are arrested with tons of it on their computers.

A child having sex would certainly qualify but once you go further down the ladder, it can get confusing. Parents have been arrested for developing film of their children taking baths. Extreme example certainly but that is NOT child *advertiser censored*.

I forgot who in the investigation said this(I'm sure someone can jump in with the source) but it has been claimed no ACTUAL child *advertiser censored* was found in the Ramsey home. I believe it. I don't believe JOhn was/is a pedophile(IF so, situational) and I doubt they were recording/photographing any sex acts with anyone. These people were dysfunctional but there are limits to any family dysfunction.

Having said that, an elephant still exists in the basement......"inappropriate" pics of a six year old murder victim dumped within fairly close proximity of her body. There were also similar pics in the family's other home. 1+1=2 here... at least one person had a seriously inappropriate infatuation with her. IMO more than one person did but its most likely that only one person(in the family) was taking these pictures and collecting them. I believe the photographer to be John Andrew.....his area of the house looks like Yucca Flats after the blast and was definitely a key area of the house that night. Do I think he was there? NO. However, I do believe the other adults in the house knew of his fixation on her and realized there were probably things in his room that needed to be dumped in the godforsaken hellhole of that basement.

"Inappropriate" and "cutesy" can mean many things. Any photo of a child nude, partially nude, or in the act of taking their clothes off, provocative posing(even fully clothed), Doing suggestive things with their mouth, tongue, or an object, etc. would fall under that broad umbrella.

I'm sure many of you who have followed this case for years and even those doing just basic research have stumbled upon articles detailing the child pageant and modeling world. Things going on there can fall under that umbrella as well.

THis is why I have always wanted a description of the photographs found in the basement and the few on the roll of film taken that day. The pictures tell a story. They not only reveal which person(s) had such an interest in her, what type of interest(such as fetishes), they can help indicate how long that interest was, the mood of the victim in these pictures, etc. A profile of sorts could be made of the photographer and victim based on these photographs. I have serious doubts the BPD or DA even attempted such a thing. I would hope the FBI had a very, VERY close look at these photographs.
 
Excellent post otg....

Thanks for bumping the two discussions. I will read those tonight. It will never cease to amaze me how this party and the 911 call played such a minor role in the investigation and as I said previously, I do believe the crime can potentially be solved if they ever go deeper into that night's events. After the murder when BPD realized the potential importance of this party, every single person at this party should have been rounded up(including the children) and interrogated. Unfortunately several key witnesses(Patsy and Santa) are dead, some others as well, and the children may have little to no memory of the evening. I think the surviving witnesses should be interviewed anyways.



TMK, White has never spoken publicly about whether or not he had anything to do with it, knew anything about it, or (if he was responsible) why he dialed 9-1-1. Speculation (unconfirmed) about his dialing it has included the following:

  • Wanting to reach “Information” at 411 for a number he didn’t have, he instead mis-dialed a 9 instead of a 4, and then realizing his mistake, hung up.
  • He was accustomed to dialing a 9 first to get an “outside line” (as is typically done in an office with internal extensions), then a 1 for Long Distance Direct Dialing (LDDD), then the area code (or alternately that he accidentally punched the 1 twice before the area code because there are no area codes in Colorado that begin with a 1).
  • He was making a call to a drug firm in another country using International Direct Dialing (IDD) where one first dials “011” and then the country code, but he unintentionally hit a 9 instead of a 0.
Each of these scenarios hinge on his mis-dialing somehow, then hanging up without saying anything to the responding 911 operator.

Personally, I can’t imagine White doing something like this --
Me either. I'm on the fence generally speaking in regards to Fleet. While I think there's a less than zero percent chance he murdered her, its clear that he knows more than he's told.....publicly anyways. I also feel sorry for him. He was crucified by many for years....unfairly I might add. NEVER should've been considered a suspect in her murder but instead as a crucial witness in the days, weeks, hours leading up to her murder and discovery of her body. A colossal mistake.

If this case is ever going to be solved, he is a key figure in the puzzle just on the oddities in what is known as the basement sequence alone. I wish some experts like Ressler, Douglas, etc. could've had a crack at this guy back then. Instead of treating him like garbage, they might have got him to open up about the Ramsey family dynamic which could open many doors that were painted shut early on.


Neither can I understand a party going on where the front door isn’t opened for policemen to find out why they are there. Instead you have a guest at the party respond and speak to them through a cracked door refusing to let them in while that person goes around the house asking who called 911
Yeah there is absolutely nothing kosher about how the people in the house responded to the police and this hangup call. Many sleuthers like to gloss over the events on the 23rd because its difficult to fit into their theories. I wont do it. There's a connection.....we just don't know what it is yet.


It’s also strange that the police didn’t insist on speaking to the person who made the call to verify the information given to them.
I understand your feelings on this but I'm willing to give the cops in that situation a free pass to an extent. Only her murder 48 hours later makes this call a huge clue.

There are thousands of 911 hangup calls every day. Cops must go to these houses just to make sure everything's ok and on the surface it was.....a holiday party, I assume they heard people talking, maybe laughing, children, many cars at the house, etc. I doubt anything looked suspicious. Only hindsight makes us(and even those cops) wish they had forced that door open and went into the house.

What if there had been an emergency that the person refusing to let them in was trying to hide? What if an intruder (yeah, right :giggle:) was holding a gun to the person at the door telling them to get rid of the cops?
Good points of course but like I said, its basically a judgment call for the cops at the scene of 911 hangup calls and I doubt anything looked out of the ordinary.

All very hinky. I wish Fleet White would at least address this publicly.
Me too. Since shows are being planned for the 20th anniversary of her murder, I really hope Fleet will offer to appear on one of them. Fleet always seemed to genuinely care about Jonbenet and expressed real outrage at how the case played out. If he knows info that can blow the lid off this case and heat things up, I hope he is willing to move forward in that regard.
 
Otg thanks indeed for bumping those two threads, I will read them again as well

Singularity; Brilliant posts, thank you.

You know, before this conversation I never gave much thought to JAR, but I do find it very odd many of his items were discarded (and others Patsy claimed she couldn't recognize in pictures) it's both a source of frustration and fascination how every single player and incident in the case has some potentially bizarre element to it, nobody explained why there was a collage of John's deceased daughter in his bathroom.

On the topic of Fleet, I also read here that during Jonbenét's funeral, Fleet was seen arguing with John, shaking his shoulders. I guess they started screaming because somebody told them to behave. And then it was all downhill from there for their friendship. That event only confirms Fleet certainly knew more or at least suspected something was wrong from the very start. We know Patsy's inner circle wanted to do an intervention for her Jonbenét obssession, but it's also possible Fleet was concerned for the child sometime before the murder is it not?

I must leave for work now but I have to read those threads again and refresh these topics on my mind, I'm glad we agree they are of huge importance
 
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