Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[Ellie9]

Just as I suspected, seems the root cause of mothers killing their children ( filicid) is low intelligence and significant life stresses.

notedhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174580/

This is going to sound rude, so forgive me in advance. I never really thought PR was intelligent. She was fairly well educated, but intelligent? I'm not sure a former beauty queen and a pageant mom screams intelligence to me. Ever seen stuff about pageant mom's on those reality shows? They strike me as being kind of shallow, petty, and dense.

I mean, dress your little girl like an adult and have her strip off her dress in front of a room of strangers? That is so the opposite of intelligence to me.


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[CorallaroC]

Just as I suspected, seems the root cause of mothers killing their children ( filicid) is low intelligence and significant life stresses.

notedhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174580/

Hi TexasTuff,

With all due respect, I think if you continue doing research along these lines you will eventually come full circle. Especially if you consider how everyday anger can reduce a person's ability to make intelligent decisions, and how full blown rage is even worse. No need for me to quote sources - it's common sense and info is easily found on the internet to back that up.

Intense fear, intense terror, intense pain, all affect mental functioning.

 

[Ellie9]

Hi TexasTuff,

With all due respect, I think if you continue doing research along these lines you will eventually come full circle. Especially if you consider how everyday anger can reduce a person's ability to make intelligent decisions, and how full blown rage is even worse. No need for me to quote sources - it's common sense and info is easily found on the internet to back that up.

Intense fear, intense terror, intense pain, all affect mental functioning.

And lack of sleep. She wore the same clothes. She didn't sleep a wink and this is someone who wakes up very early normally. After a certain amount of time a sleep deprived person is about the same mental function level as a legally intoxicated person. And whose to say she didn't drink at the party? Especially if John wss the driver that night.


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[TexasTuff]

So we both agree that Victory is at the end of the note. Have you ever read Patsy's JonBenet's birth story in DOI? At the end of the story, Patsy talks about how JonBenet's middle name was going to be Collette.

http://www.babycenter.com/baby-names-collette-28685.htm

You honestly believe that's enough to hang her?

 

[TexasTuff]

This is going to sound rude, so forgive me in advance. I never really thought PR was intelligent. She was fairly well educated, but intelligent? I'm not sure a former beauty queen and a pageant mom screams intelligence to me. Ever seen stuff about pageant mom's on those reality shows? They strike me as being kind of shallow, petty, and dense.

I mean, dress your little girl like an adult and have her strip off her dress in front of a room of strangers? That is so the opposite of intelligence to me.


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Fine, I'll change it to "fairly well educated".

 

[TexasTuff]

Hi TexasTuff,

With all due respect, I think if you continue doing research along these lines you will eventually come full circle. Especially if you consider how everyday anger can reduce a person's ability to make intelligent decisions, and how full blown rage is even worse. No need for me to quote sources - it's common sense and info is easily found on the internet to back that up.

Intense fear, intense terror, intense pain, all affect mental functioning.

I think you'r reading too much "into it".

 

[TexasTuff]

And lack of sleep. She wore the same clothes. She didn't sleep a wink and this is someone who wakes up very early normally. After a certain amount of time a sleep deprived person is about the same mental function level as a legally intoxicated person. And whose to say she didn't drink at the party? Especially if John wss the driver that night.


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Your trying to "build" a situation, much like Det. Thomas and his theory.

 

[Ellie9]

Your trying to "build" a situation, much like Det. Thomas and his theory.

I probably should not have just guessed alcohol could have been involved, this is true. I don't think I'm building on anything else though. She did wear the same clothes, which is unusual for someone like her and strongly indicates she never went to bed.

Also it's true that tired people, and anxious upset people, do things that are below their usual functioning intelligence.

If we go by your previous post and your statistics then we can't discount the statistics that say most children are killed by members of their own family.


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Edit for wrong word used.

 

[BOESP]

Your trying to "build" a situation, much like Det. Thomas and his theory.

Patsy "built" the situation. Nobody had to do it for her.

 

[icedtea4me]

You honestly believe that's enough to hang her?

Gasp! Ya mean it isn't? Well, gosh golly gee whillakers!

 

[TexasTuff]

Hello//I just have a question as i was looking as some of the crime scene pics i thought of it. The rope used to do the garotte its simply a shoelace .I cant speak for the rest of you but for myself i dont have a spare set of shoe laces lying around i would have to take one out of another pair of shoes to get one untill i could get to the store and they come in 2 so iam just wondering did they ever check the spare shoes in the house to see if there was a shoe with only one shoe lace in it or if they had a set of new ones was one allready used the other still in the package..just wondering your thoughts and well if you know the awnser ...

It's odd you mention it, I just read an article today that someone proposed that. They tracked similar cord to the Boulder Army Navy surplus store.

The clerk was asked if the Ramsey's had ever been in the store and they said "not to their knowledge".

I need to clarify where the info I replied to CanManEh came from:


Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, JonBenet and the City of Boulder Written by Lawrence Schiller

PMPT Page 405
"After church, Jeff Shapiro called Frank Coffman, an occasional contributor to the Colorado Daily. Coffman, a friendly

PMPT Page 406
guy about to turn fifty, had first met Alex Hunter in 1982 during a citizens' meeting and was currently writing articles on the Ramsey case. Coffman agreed to meet Shapiro at the Trident bookstore and cafe on Pearl Street, next door to the Rue Morgue mystery bookstore.
Over coffee, they talked about the case and eventually reached the topic of the garrote stick. In the photo the Globe had published, the wood looked like a manufactured item, slightly glossy and tapered. Then they looked at the autopsy and crime scene photos, which Shapiro had been given by his editor. Coffman said he'd once seen some white cord at the Boulder army-navy store that looked similar to the cord around JonBenet's wrist.
That afternoon, Shapiro visited the store Coffman had mentioned, which was just a few blocks from the Access . Graphics offices. Sifting through the boxes of white cord, he found some that matched what he'd seen in the autopsy photo.

Shapiro asked the cashier if John or Patsy Ramsey: had ever been in the store.

"Not that I can recall," the clerk said.

That evening, Shapiro wrote a letter to Alex Hunter. He mentioned what he'd found and said that according to the clerk, the police had never visited the store to inquire about cord."


JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas and Don Davis

ST Page 234
Trujillo insisted that the ligatures in the Ramsey case were not nylon and that we needed to find a polypropylene rope. I told him to have it tested anyway.
In the middle of November, John Van Tassell of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, one of the world's foremost experts on knots and cords, reviewed the neck ligature, the length of white cord that had been twisted around the broken paintbrush handle to create a terrible killing tool. Van Tassell commented that it was "a soft nylon cord." Sergeant Wickman and I immediately caught the term.
We asked if he was certain, and the Mountie studied it some more. Sure looks like soft nylon, he said, as he examined what looked like a soft flat white shoelace. Not stiff and rigid like polypropylene.

 

[BBB167893]

Could you name them please?

Well, for starters, they did THIS to their child:

 

[BBB167893]

? Sorry, don't get your drift.

I'll quote from PMPT, pages 377-378:

"The detectives were sure that if only Hunter had agreed to jail Patsy--even for a short time--she would have caved in. If Patsy'd had to face that kind of dreadful uncertainty about her future, she would have broken down and the case would have been solved that very day, the detectives believed."

If she'd heard that cell door slam behind her, she would have known, as the kids say, "s**t just got real."

 

[BBB167893]

It was the investigator that told Patsy, "What if I tell you I have scientific evidence that you killed Jonbenet," :waitasec: which was a complete lie, because if he had had the evidence he wouldn't have been interviewing her, he would have arrested her. :jail:

You know, I've read that interview transcript a few times, and I don't remember Haney actually using those words. Here's what was actually said:

Detective Tom Haney talking to Patsy Ramsey "If I told you right now that we have trace evidence
that appears to link you to the death of JonBenét, what would you tell me?"

Patsy Ramsey: "That is totally impossible. Go re-test."

Detective Tom Haney: "How is that impossible?"

Patsy Ramsey: "I did not kill my child. I didn't have a thing to do with it."

Detective Tom Haney: "And I'm not talking, you know, somebody's guess or some rumor or some
story......"

Patsy Ramsey: "I don't care what you're talking about."

Detective Tom Haney: "I'm talking about scientific evidence."

"Linking to her death" is a pretty far cry from "you killed her." That's where you went wrong, TexasTuff. If the scientific evidence HAD been that Patsy killed her, then he WOULD have arrested her. Or someone else would have. But, and I've pointed this out many times, the forensic evidence couldn't show which parent actually killed JonBenet and which one was merely an accomplice.

This thread will explain it:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?84675-The-cross-fingerpointing-defense

Typically, such cases are not broken through forensic evidence, especially in a case like this, since they lived there. No; the standard police tactic in situations like this is to arrest both parents, throw them both into separate holding cells, and see which one is willing to sell out the other one.

You're welcome.

 

[BBB167893]

The link below shows autopsy photo's (graphic!). You'll never get me to believe that PR and JR caused that kind of damage to JB's skull NEVER!

http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene1.html

Oh, no? Let's ask FBI agent Ron Walker, who was at the house the morning of Dec 26th, 1996:

"Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children."

Don't ever tell me that someone isn't capable of something. I've thought that, and I've suffered for it. ANYONE is capable of ANYTHING. That's a hard lesson for a hard world, and we all had damn well better learn it.

 

[BBB167893]

I think the history of most parents whose child was murdered speaks for itself: Marc Klass, Jessica Lunsford's dad and others.

There are others I believe are guilty but weren't charged and even they spoke to police.

Using valium as an excuse not to help find your child's killer ASAP doesn't speak to me as innocence. It didn't stop her from wanting to speak on CNN news.

Don't forget the Van Dams and Erin Runnion. Or Patty Wetterling.

 

[BBB167893]

Major difference being? She wasn't being interrogated by the :cop: with their lieing conniveing ways!

Major difference BEING there was no NEED.

And if you want to talk about just who in this case had lying, conniving ways, I'm your man!

 

[BBB167893]

I’m beginning to think that some people don’t understand what “totality” means.

Must be catching...

What you, and Kolar, and virtually everyone who uses the term, should be saying is that the preponderance of the evidence, or the majority of it, the most, something, etc

I'm sick of arguing the point with you. You can have that one.

 

[BBB167893]

Lee is not a DNA expert. Never has been, and his credibility has been questioned on more than one occasion (see Fisher’s “Forensics Under Fire”).

However, it is probably true that innocent DNA (and, other trace evidence) is often found at crime scenes. But, the only way that we could know this it be true is if those innocent sources had been found. In this case, despite effort, an innocent source has not been found.
…

AK

I'm not so sure about that, Anti-K. In fact, let me give you a specific example. There's a man serving life in prison in Maine since 1988. Dennis Dechaine is his name. The state says he raped and murdered a 12-y/o girl named Sarah Cherry. There are numerous people who claim Dechaine got a raw deal. Their "evidence" is DNA found under the girl's nails that did not come from Dechaine and was not available at the time of his trial.

Follow me so far? Problem is, in order to latch onto the DNA as proof of Dechaine's innocence, you have to ignore all of the other evidence against him. Circumstantial evidence, I guess the old-timers call it. A car repair receipt with his name was found at the home where the girl was last seen, along with tire tracks from his truck. A witness saw him walking out of the woods where her body was later found. His lawyer, in a preview of what David Westerfield's lawyer would later do, told police that the girl was dead and where to find her. They did. They arrested Dechaine, and he confessed.

But hey, there's DNA that wasn't his! So following your logic, they should let him go! God almighty...

 

[BBB167893]

The claim that it took “nearly ten years worth of advancement in DNA testing methods just to GET to 10” is also false. I’m currently without my resources, but anyone with Kolar’s book can look this up, but as I recall it the panty DNA was first tested in 2003 and was accepted to CODIS in, uh, 2003? Maybe 2005? Kolar, anyone?
…

AK

That's NOT what I meant. The panties were tested for DNA all the way back in 1997 by Cellmark Labs (several books confirm this) and only a few markers could be isolated. They retested it in 2003 with new technology and got 9-1/2 markers.