Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
Nothing except death is 100% certain. Everything else is probabilities. Lets put it this way, BR's pajama bottoms should not be at a crime-scene, just has his touch-dna should not be at another crime-scene, i.e. wine-cellar, similarly for his fingerprint on the pineapple serving bowl.

Maybe there is an innocent explanation for these occurrences, but three forensic links looks a little suspicious to me.


.

So, is that a yes or a no?

 

[UKGuy]

So, is that a yes or a no?

icedtea4me,
Patently its a no. Whether BR's touch-dna arrived prior to the bloodstain on the pink barbie nightgown or after, is immaterial, what matters is that it is there at all!

The wine-cellar is a crime-scene, according to the R's version of events JonBenet was put to bed sleeping wearing the white gap top. So for the bloodstained pink barbie-nightgown to be dumped into the wine-cellar with BR's touch-dna, requires explaining without hair-splitting about degrees of certainty.

BR is linked by forensic evidence to nearly every room JonBenet visited after arriving back from the White's.

.

 

[Foreign Faction]

. Presumably the GJ heard and saw evidence we know nothing about?



.

This, IMHO, is a HUGE part of the case, which we may in all likelihood never know anything about. I do agree pretty much completely with UKGuy's assessment of this in terms of a BDI situation.
With all the forensic evidence linking BR to various rooms of the house, including JBR's bedroom, it really doesn't take a genius to see that there is some MAJOR involvement of this person in the head trauma at the very least. Where it occurred (bedroom, breakfast bar, cellar) is up for debate, however. I haven't read Kolar's book (I have it on order), so what UKGuy writes above about BR's pajama bottoms is something I hadn't heard before! Is this tied into the excrement being found smeared on a box of candy in JBR's bedroom as well, I would think probably so, to some degree. This scatalogical issue with Burke is, as a psychologist, really important to me, but also very confusing. It leads, logically, to places that a person may not want to go.

Is it possible BR was trying to molest JBR, maybe had even started to, and she tried to run away from him, and his pursuit of her resulted in the whacking on the head? Where does the excrement and the candy box figure in this scenario? The further you fall down the Ramsey rabbit-hole, the harder and harder it is to get out. :gaah:

 

[UKGuy]

This, IMHO, is a HUGE part of the case, which we may in all likelihood never know anything about. I do agree pretty much completely with UKGuy's assessment of this in terms of a BDI situation.
With all the forensic evidence linking BR to various rooms of the house, including JBR's bedroom, it really doesn't take a genius to see that there is some MAJOR involvement of this person in the head trauma at the very least. Where it occurred (bedroom, breakfast bar, cellar) is up for debate, however. I haven't read Kolar's book (I have it on order), so what UKGuy writes above about BR's pajama bottoms is something I hadn't heard before! Is this tied into the excrement being found smeared on a box of candy in JBR's bedroom as well, I would think probably so, to some degree. This scatalogical issue with Burke is, as a psychologist, really important to me, but also very confusing. It leads, logically, to places that a person may not want to go.

Is it possible BR was trying to molest JBR, maybe had even started to, and she tried to run away from him, and his pursuit of her resulted in the whacking on the head? Where does the excrement and the candy box figure in this scenario? The further you fall down the Ramsey rabbit-hole, the harder and harder it is to get out. :gaah:

Foreign Faction,

This scatalogical issue with Burke is, as a psychologist, really important to me, but also very confusing. It leads, logically, to places that a person may not want to go.

Its also a paraphilia, so linked with JonBenet's chronic and acute sexual assault, and along with BR regularly playing doctor under the bed-covers, q.v. LHP. BR might have developed sexually inappropriate behavior?

Sourced from James Kolar's Q&A / AMA March 28, 2015 on reddit

Question:
1. Where in JonBenet's room were the feces-smeared pajama bottoms "thought to belong to Burke" found? If they were in plain sight, is there a crime scene photograph of them? Were they collected?
2. Was the "feces-smeared candy box" collected? If not, do you know why not?

Answer:
It is my recollection that the pj bottoms were on the floor but I didn’t see that they or the box of candy were collected. It was an odd observation noted by investigators, but I don’t think they grasped the significance of those items at the time. Interviews were still being conducted with family employees and friends during and well after the completion of the execution of the search warrants.

Holly Smith was head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, she found this in JonBenet's bedroom:

One poignant find that she does recall was a red satin box with what looked like JonBenet’s secret stash of candy.

She found something else in the room, however, which raised an immediate red flag. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material.

She failed to tell us the candy box was fecally smeared?

.

 

[singularity]

singularity,

BDI explains more of the available forensic evidence than any other theory, including the behavior of Hunter, and various BPD personnel, not to mention the GJ wishing to indict the parents on assisting a homicide and child abuse. Presumably the GJ heard and saw evidence we know nothing about?

Who does that leave?

Other than BR's fingerprints on the bowl containing the pineapple, we have his touch-dna on the bloodstained pink barbie nightgown left in the wine-cellar. Also according to Kolar a pair of BR's pajama bottoms were left in JonBenet's bedroom, whilst JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms are missing, coincidence, or what?

All this links BR to the wine-cellar, breakfast bar, and JonBenet's bedroom!

.

So what you're saying is since there's more evidence of John and Patsy than there is of Burke's, this means its BDI? We have two similar discussions going in two threads. I wish we could narrow it down to one. In the 'Strongest Evidence' thread, you just claimed Burke did it all, including the asphyxiation/strangulation yet admit that " Fibers from JR's Israeli manufactured shirt were allegedly found inside the size-12's. Fibers from PR's were found embedded in the knotting of the ligature/paintbrush device, so apparently both parents were involved in the staging."

Why is evidence from Burke lacking in this area? What did he strangle her with? You also claim he sexually assaulted her yet what little evidence at the scene we know of points to her parents in this regard, not Burke. I know you can say they wiped her down(and they likely did) and did all the staging so this is why no evidence of Burke is found and its their fibers but this doesn't fly because you claim there's more evidence of Burke than John and Patsy. It cant be both.

Considering the fact both children went into each others bedrooms often(and periodically slept together) I don't see anything wrong with touch DNA being found on her clothing. She was possibly wearing that nightgown at some point that night so this specific item doesn't link him to the wine cellar IMO. As far as his pajama bottoms go, these two kids seemed to like getting into bed with one another and from what info we know about the two, they probably weren't wearing clothing all the time. How long were his pajama bottoms in that room? That house was a complete mess....or is this me just "multiplying objects beyond necessity" even though you and everyone else gets to do this?

BR's pajama bottoms should not be at a crime-scene

A child's clothing shouldn't be found in their sibling's room? It would have been more suspicious had nothing of either child been found in their rooms. The fact feces was found in them is potentially disturbing(as well as the rest of his behavior in this regard depending on its extent) but both kids had issues with soiling. All his pajama bottoms prove is that he took them off in there at some point in time.


Her missing pajama bottoms don't point to any specific person.How can they when they're missing? I've also wondered what they did with those and how they got rid of them.

fingerprint on the pineapple serving bowl.

Nothing surprising about someones fingerprint being on a dish in their house. Patsy's fingerprint was also on this bowl.


Linking a child to the breakfast bar in their own house means very little, no offense. I know Kolar is whole hog on the "Burke bashed her head in at the breakfast bar while eating pineapple" theory so now more focus is placed on the breakfast bar. These two kids were all over that house. Technically you could link them anywhere but the roof. Patsy can also be linked to the breakfast bar on the same evidence you're using to link Burke there. There is more evidence linking Patsy to each area of the house you mentioned....you even said so yourself by listing it.

Who does that leave?

Going by the evidence you have listed in both discussions, it leaves John and Patsy.

but three forensic links looks a little suspicious to me.

If that looks suspicious, how do you describe all the links to John and Patsy?

Presumably the GJ heard and saw evidence we know nothing about?

Absolutely and I've also wondered if some evidence was held back from them. BDI will say they heard it all and decided to indict the Ramseys for assisting him when the flip side of that coin is that they simply didn't know which specific Ramsey did what. Now for the child abuse there's pretty much no doubts there. I think we both agree she likely had multiple abusers and we haven't even seen all the evidence. God only knows what secrets are still being kept.

coincidence, or what?

Not sure about that but there are quite a few bizarre coincidences in this case.

Question:
1. Where in JonBenet's room were the feces-smeared pajama bottoms "thought to belong to Burke" found? If they were in plain sight, is there a crime scene photograph of them? Were they collected?
2. Was the "feces-smeared candy box" collected? If not, do you know why not?

Answer:
It is my recollection that the pj bottoms were on the floor but I didn’t see that they or the box of candy were collected. It was an odd observation noted by investigators, but I don’t think they grasped the significance of those items at the time. Interviews were still being conducted with family employees and friends during and well after the completion of the execution of the search warrants.

The incompetence in this case is a bottomless pit. You can add the pajama bottoms and box of candy into the category of clues that also contains the John Douglas book Mindhunter, the tupperware container in Jonbenet's room, and other "odd observations" made by people on the scene who couldn't even agree if the sky is blue.

Funny how he blames the incompetence on doing interviews as if the entire BPD is only able to do one thing at a time. Let's not bother with that Tupperware container found in JOnbenet's room that contained god knows what or that candy box,etc., we got a housekeeper to interview! Deplorable....even more so that he would defend it.

Same as it ever was....

She failed to tell us the candy box was fecally smeared?

Par for the course. One person sees an innocent box of candy, the other sees a diabolical box of candy smeared with feces. I'd assume the head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team would be more observant on such issues than others on the scene, specifically the ones who apparently cant walk and chew gum at the same time.

This "feces" was probably chocolate. I agree that its a red flag with soiled pj bottoms and panties regardless of how much is actually there but its absolutely inexcusable they did not collect this other evidence.

 

[UKGuy]

So what you're saying is since there's more evidence of John and Patsy than there is of Burke's, this means its BDI? We have two similar discussions going in two threads. I wish we could narrow it down to one. In the 'Strongest Evidence' thread, you just claimed Burke did it all, including the asphyxiation/strangulation yet admit that " Fibers from JR's Israeli manufactured shirt were allegedly found inside the size-12's. Fibers from PR's were found embedded in the knotting of the ligature/paintbrush device, so apparently both parents were involved in the staging."

Why is evidence from Burke lacking in this area? What did he strangle her with? You also claim he sexually assaulted her yet what little evidence at the scene we know of points to her parents in this regard, not Burke. I know you can say they wiped her down(and they likely did) and did all the staging so this is why no evidence of Burke is found and its their fibers but this doesn't fly because you claim there's more evidence of Burke than John and Patsy. It cant be both.

Considering the fact both children went into each others bedrooms often(and periodically slept together) I don't see anything wrong with touch DNA being found on her clothing. She was possibly wearing that nightgown at some point that night so this specific item doesn't link him to the wine cellar IMO. As far as his pajama bottoms go, these two kids seemed to like getting into bed with one another and from what info we know about the two, they probably weren't wearing clothing all the time. How long were his pajama bottoms in that room? That house was a complete mess....or is this me just "multiplying objects beyond necessity" even though you and everyone else gets to do this?

A child's clothing shouldn't be found in their sibling's room? It would have been more suspicious had nothing of either child been found in their rooms. The fact feces was found in them is potentially disturbing(as well as the rest of his behavior in this regard depending on its extent) but both kids had issues with soiling. All his pajama bottoms prove is that he took them off in there at some point in time.


Her missing pajama bottoms don't point to any specific person.How can they when they're missing? I've also wondered what they did with those and how they got rid of them.

Nothing surprising about someones fingerprint being on a dish in their house. Patsy's fingerprint was also on this bowl.


Linking a child to the breakfast bar in their own house means very little, no offense. I know Kolar is whole hog on the "Burke bashed her head in at the breakfast bar while eating pineapple" theory so now more focus is placed on the breakfast bar. These two kids were all over that house. Technically you could link them anywhere but the roof. Patsy can also be linked to the breakfast bar on the same evidence you're using to link Burke there. There is more evidence linking Patsy to each area of the house you mentioned....you even said so yourself by listing it.



Going by the evidence you have listed in both discussions, it leaves John and Patsy.

If that looks suspicious, how do you describe all the links to John and Patsy?



Absolutely and I've also wondered if some evidence was held back from them. BDI will say they heard it all and decided to indict the Ramseys for assisting him when the flip side of that coin is that they simply didn't know which specific Ramsey did what. Now for the child abuse there's pretty much no doubts there. I think we both agree she likely had multiple abusers and we haven't even seen all the evidence. God only knows what secrets are still being kept.

Not sure about that but there are quite a few bizarre coincidences in this case.


The incompetence in this case is a bottomless pit. You can add the pajama bottoms and box of candy into the category of clues that also contains the John Douglas book Mindhunter, the tupperware container in Jonbenet's room, and other "odd observations" made by people on the scene who couldn't even agree if the sky is blue.

Funny how he blames the incompetence on doing interviews as if the entire BPD is only able to do one thing at a time. Let's not bother with that Tupperware container found in JOnbenet's room that contained god knows what or that candy box,etc., we got a housekeeper to interview! Deplorable....even more so that he would defend it.

Same as it ever was....

Par for the course. One person sees an innocent box of candy, the other sees a diabolical box of candy smeared with feces. I'd assume the head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team would be more observant on such issues than others on the scene, specifically the ones who apparently cant walk and chew gum at the same time.

This "feces" was probably chocolate. I agree that its a red flag with soiled pj bottoms and panties regardless of how much is actually there but its absolutely inexcusable they did not collect this other evidence.

singularity,

Why is evidence from Burke lacking in this area? What did he strangle her with? You also claim he sexually assaulted her yet what little evidence at the scene we know of points to her parents in this regard, not Burke. I know you can say they wiped her down(and they likely did) and did all the staging so this is why no evidence of Burke is found and its their fibers but this doesn't fly because you claim there's more evidence of Burke than John and Patsy. It cant be both.

I along with others have already listed various evidence linking BR to JonBenet's homicide. He strangled JonBenet with both his hands and the ligature.

Whenever you offer flippant alternatives to aspects of the BDI theory, e.g. pineapple originates from breakfast, you are guilty of multiplying objects beyond necessity, q.v. Occam, since we now have two dependent reasons for pineapple being present in JonBenet's stomach. You repeat this in other areas of the theory, if you find stuff conflicts then provide your own theory which refutes my BDI so we can make some progress.

KISS: BR did it all, the parents then cleaned up, redressed JonBenet and added the paintbrush handle, this explains why the parents left forensic traces and BR very little, i.e. it was removed, e.g. size-6 underwear and pink pajama bottoms.

So in a nutshell BR did it all, the parents did the staging, simples!

.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*Also according to Kolar a pair of BR's pajama bottoms were left in JonBenet's bedroom*snip*

One of the Ramsey's former nannies stated that JonBenet would wear Burke's hand-me-downs. Just because Kolar said that these pajama bottoms either were or appeared to be too large for JonBenet, doesn't mean they still fit Burke.

 

[UKGuy]

One of the Ramsey's former nannies stated that JonBenet would wear Burke's hand-me-downs. Just because Kolar said that these pajama bottoms either were or appeared to be too large for JonBenet, doesn't mean they still fit Burke.

icedtea4me,
Does not mean they ever belonged to BR. Consider JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms are missing, her bloodstained pink barbie nightgown was dumped in the wine-cellar, and she was wearing long johns, patently she did not lack pajamas.

Naturally a touch-dna test would reveal who had been wearing those pajama bottoms, particularly any fecal matter on them should offer a dna match to one the R's, the two dna methods in combination should identify the owner.

.

 

[Tadpole12]

I have speculated that JonBenet's head injury might have been a failed first attempt at staging her death, with the stager moving on to ligature asphyxiation, e.g. she was initially made unconscious by manual pressure on her vagus nerve.

UK.

Interesting consideration, keeping in mind the line of questioning regarding the possibility of a weight being dropped on JBR's head.

 

[Tadpole12]

For real?
JonBenet Ramsey: The Musical

http://www.jonbenetramseythemusical.com/

about the show
http://www.jonbenetramseythemusical.com/#!the-show/aqa7i
"We'll do our best to explain what happened and tell a tale of how a staged kidnapping
followed by a botched investigation led to the unsolved murder mystery that is still very relevant today."

 

[Foreign Faction]

For real?
JonBenet Ramsey: The Musical

http://www.jonbenetramseythemusical.com/

about the show
http://www.jonbenetramseythemusical.com/#!the-show/aqa7i
"We'll do our best to explain what happened and tell a tale of how a staged kidnapping
followed by a botched investigation led to the unsolved murder mystery that is still very relevant today."

The website makes it seem as if it's real, but why would a fat Hispanic man be playing JBR????

Also, the actual killer (BR), isn't even in the cast.

 

[icedtea4me]

The website makes it seem as if it's real, but why would a fat Hispanic man be playing JBR????

Why not?

Also, the actual killer (BR), isn't even in the cast.

That ought to have been written as Also, the person I believe to be the actual killer (BR) isn't even in the cast.

 

[AndHence]

Another overlooked thing in this case is the information that it was custom in the Ramsey household for Patsy to awake around midnight to check in on JonBenet. This was done to make sure she hadn't wet the bed in the middle of the night. Patsy would routinely change the sheets at this time and Linda Hoffman often said the sheets were already in the wash when she would arrive for work in the mornings. It is mighty convenient then that on the night of the murder the Ramseys state that they slept the entire night and Patsy did not check on JonBenet. If Steve Thomas's bed wetting theory is accurate, this would explain Patsy awaking in the night to check on JonBenet and likely putting the same clothes on from the night before to do so. People often put the clothes on they have just taken off if they are getting up momentarily to check something in the night.

 

[Foreign Faction]

Why not?



That ought to have been written as Also, the person I believe to be the actual killer (BR) isn't even in the cast.

LOL, ok , if you say so. I was being facetious if you couldn't tell. But I did at least get a reaction. :happydance:

 

[observation]

I mostly just follow the JBR case and typically check for updates but rarely post. This is an old and I feel very "established" case with many followers that have been historically following along- so let's just say, it can be a little intimidating for me to post. I have read and watched all the depos, read books, old interviews for all the case players and of course a candyrose website.
I just recently downloaded the PDF from Laurence L. Smith which is an update to his- The Last Christmas of JBR.
In this updated version he mentions a plea deal with Patsy R. that was reached in 2003 where she confesses that JBR fell down the spiral staircase.
Does anyone have any insight or thoughts?
I admit to having a lot of doubts and it's clear that if this in fact occurred, many steps were taken to cover up for a "tragic accident."
This case continues to haunt so many but it also generates interested parties and of course, money.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Question:Could her scull fracture been from a fall down that staircase?

 

[icedtea4me]

I mostly just follow the JBR case and typically check for updates but rarely post. This is an old and I feel very "established" case with many followers that have been historically following along- so let's just say, it can be a little intimidating for me to post. I have read and watched all the depos, read books, old interviews for all the case players and of course a candyrose website.
I just recently downloaded the PDF from Laurence L. Smith which is an update to his- The Last Christmas of JBR.
In this updated version he mentions a plea deal with Patsy R. that was reached in 2003 where she confesses that JBR fell down the spiral staircase.
Does anyone have any insight or thoughts?
I admit to having a lot of doubts and it's clear that if this in fact occurred, many steps were taken to cover up for a "tragic accident."
This case continues to haunt so many but it also generates interested parties and of course, money.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Question:Could her scull fracture been from a fall down that staircase?

He's lying.

 

[observation]

He's lying.

Really??? Wow- seems like an awful way to make a living.
Appreciate your candid opinion icedtea.
Seems like if JBR did take a tumble and lain at the bottom of the stair case unconscious and possibly seizing- PR could not have imagined a child needing a w/c to win the pageants she had planned for her daughter. In this case scenario- I could see PR justifying herself in other actions.
Point taken, though.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[otg]

I mostly just follow the JBR case and typically check for updates but rarely post. This is an old and I feel very "established" case with many followers that have been historically following along- so let's just say, it can be a little intimidating for me to post. I have read and watched all the depos, read books, old interviews for all the case players and of course a candyrose website.
I just recently downloaded the PDF from Laurence L. Smith which is an update to his- The Last Christmas of JBR.
In this updated version he mentions a plea deal with Patsy R. that was reached in 2003 where she confesses that JBR fell down the spiral staircase.
Does anyone have any insight or thoughts?
I admit to having a lot of doubts and it's clear that if this in fact occurred, many steps were taken to cover up for a "tragic accident."
This case continues to haunt so many but it also generates interested parties and of course, money.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Question:Could her scull fracture been from a fall down that staircase?

In a word, observation: NO. Had she gone tumbling down the staircase, she would most likely have had multiple fractures, contusions, and skull injuries. All of the damage done to her skull was from one single impact. Smith seems to be basing his opinion on his belief that a strand of Christmas lights are missing in a photo taken where the lights cannot be seen. In other photos from previous years the glimmer of several (not all) lights can be seen. His conclusion is that it is evidence that she grabbed the handrail as she fell, pulling the string of lights off as she tumbled. He also thinks the depressed fracture in her skull is from her head hitting one of the lights at the bottom of the stairs (the hole in her skull is the same shape as a Christmas light, you see). Never mind, of course, that it seems likely that such an impact would likely break the bulb causing some of the broken glass to cut her scalp.

I'd go further than icedtea4me if Smith didn't put the following statement in his writing:

It should be duly noted that statements made in this written material should not be construed as factual; rather, the author’s belief of how events occurred.
​

Here's a thread you might be interested in reading which was started in 2007 -- two years after he had begun saying he was publishing the book:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?47351-Lawrence-s-Smith-s-book


Incidentally, relating to another recent discussion about Dr. Rorke-Adams, the above thread evolved about halfway through into a discussion about exactly how involved she might have been and what she had to base her opinion on about JonBenet's injuries.

 

[observation]

Wish I hadn't spent the $7.99 for the PDF update.
Thank you very much for your thoughtful and very insightful reply which certainly answers my questions BUT not my curiosity. I will admit that I had a brief moment of "relief" that maybe a plea deal (so typical of Hunter) that I had a lapse in judgement.
I just wish for closure for JBR who was killed in her own home. Like the indictment released in 2013, I hope one day the absolute truth will be known to put this case to rest once and for all.
Thank you again for sharing your smart thoughts and insights.


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[SandyQLS]

singularity, I along with others have already listed various evidence linking BR to JonBenet's homicide. He strangled JonBenet with both his hands and the ligature. Whenever you offer flippant alternatives to aspects of the BDI theory, e.g. pineapple originates from breakfast, you are guilty of multiplying objects beyond necessity, q.v. Occam, since we now have two dependent reasons for pineapple being present in JonBenet's stomach. You repeat this in other areas of the theory, if you find stuff conflicts then provide your own theory which refutes my BDI so we can make some progress. KISS: BR did it all, the parents then cleaned up, redressed JonBenet and added the paintbrush handle, this explains why the parents left forensic traces and BR very little, i.e. it was removed, e.g. size-6 underwear and pink pajama bottoms. So in a nutshell BR did it all, the parents did the staging, simples! .

I have serious issues with any claim that a 9 yo boy strangled a 6 yo girl other than by freak accident due to the force required.

The autopsy is NOT indicative of any attempt at manual strangulation, and the word manual is never used at all, per pages 1, 3, and 8 of the 9 pages. The extensive report only describes "ligature strangulation" (page 1, Final Diagnosis), "deep ligature furrow" (page 3), and there were no fractures of the thyroid cartilage, cricoid cartilage or hyoid bone (page 8).

While the specific immediate cause of JBR's death was "asphyxia by strangulation" (page 1), the additional "associated with craniocerebral trauma" (page1) is a reference to the 8.5-inch long skull fracture along the right side including a displaced rectangular shaped area of skull bone 1.75 X .5 inches in the posteroparietal area (described in detail on page 7), injuries which together would also have been shortly fatal without immediate medical care, and may have been hopeless given the level of brain trauma (due to large subdural hematoma pressure on brain combined with injury to brain causing swelling, all causing compression of main cerebral arteries and perhaps even brain stem compression resulting in stroke, brain tissue death, convulsions, cessation of breathing and death JMO).

JMO It is far more likely that an enraged adult (PR) hit JBR in the head with a blunt object, something like a heavy flashlight, with enough force to displace (smash in) an area skull bone, and cause that huge, long skull fracture, and then the strangulation was some attempt to both end suffering and stage the scene by PR and/or JR.