Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

who molested/abused JB?

  • JR

    Votes: 180 27.1%
  • BR

    Votes: 203 30.6%
  • JAR

    Votes: 28 4.2%
  • a close family friend

    Votes: 41 6.2%
  • a stranger/stalker a la JMK

    Votes: 20 3.0%
  • PR-it wasn't sexual abuse,it was corporal punishment

    Votes: 89 13.4%
  • she wasn't previously abused/molested

    Votes: 103 15.5%

  • Total voters
    664
Status
Not open for further replies.
Bluebottle, so you think that she had multiple personalities? Am I understanding you right?

This condition is a figment of an over active manipulative sick MIND. Imo it has n r existed and never will. No documented cases. Real or otherwise. These patients r master manipulators that show the giant flaws and bias in our mental health care system. As well as I these so called drs. I no longer believe in it.
 
I suggest a you-tube search for BPD for many personal admissions and lists of well known people that fit the diagnosis. It is surprising how many well thought of people are borderlines.

you suggested that a search for well known/celebrated BPDs would be enlightening. I then posted that there are many well known/celebrated BPDs and NPDs. I'll go further and say that NPDs are more likely to be successful because they generally function at a higher level and are less self-sabotaging than BPDs, and then there are the numbers. there are three subtypes of BPD (Clusters A, B, C). A tends toward paranoia and eccentricity and C tends toward fearfulness; those are self-limiting traits which interfere with success. that leaves us with B, tending toward drama and arrogance (assertiveness), which are more likely to be perceived as gifts/talents in many avenues of life. so 2/3 of BPDs are pretty much out of the running, so to speak

BPD and NPD are two very different things.
different, but not very different. they can overlap and are often misdiagnosed, one for the other. as I said before, higher functioning BPDs generally act out and lower functioning BPDs generally act in; those who act in are more prone to try to ignore or hide or disguise the behavior because it usually is self-defeating ("she's her own worst enemy") and therefore hard to admit

IMO PR didn't act out OR act in (BPD), she was just a flamboyant/bigger than life narcissist. she wanted things done her way and woe to those who got in her way. that's not acting out, that's just "being" PR

Can someone have both narcissistic personality disorder and borderline personality disorder?

Yes. Many people believe their family member has BPD when they really have traits of both disorders. People with BPD who do not seek treatment are at risk for having NPD traits: the NPD keeps them in denial. Almost 40 percent of people with one of these disorders also have the other, according to an NIH study (Grant et al. 2008; Stinson et al. 2008).

In addition to these statistics, it's important to know that many more people have traits of a PD, but not the full disorder. Therefore, the number of people with some of these problems may be even higher.


https://www.bpdcentral.com/faq/personality-disorders

PR was described as being highly organized and successful and was noticed and applauded for that. it was mentioned by many people who knew her. some mentioned that being noticed and applauded was her motivation for being organized and successful. that is NPD. her marriage was often described as being even-keeled and perhaps even one of convenience and/or indifference. that is not BPD. she was never described as reckless and impulsive, which is BPD. there are many more examples of described personality and behaviors that, for me, weight the scales in favor of NPD because for the most part she made good decisions, had good relationships and functioned well in life

your views are food for thought, as I believe mine are, and now I will choose to digest for awhile :cool:
 
This condition is a figment of an over active manipulative sick MIND. Imo it has n r existed and never will. No documented cases. Real or otherwise. These patients r master manipulators that show the giant flaws and bias in our mental health care system. As well as I these so called drs. I no longer believe in it.
ITA. it was a craze, erm, trend which received a lotta wowzers at one time but has now been discredited. I think disassociating is a valid concept and we all do that from time to time. I think very few of us "stay in the now" while undergoing a root canal, LOL. rape victims disassociate during the event but it doesn't result in a permanent additional personality/identity. solders in combat disassociate and function on auto pilot, etc, etc. disassociation is a mechanism of self-protection and it saves our sanity rather than damaging/destroying it
 
No, I have not charted them. That would be a good task for the psych 301 class. Good question. I have barely approached it.

I have thought the one that did the killing/staging wrote the note as well and could be responsible for the messages ratting out the vaginal penetration. I really don't see that (the vaginal manipulation) being done by a developed persona, in fact I don't see an extensive, intricate development, iow, with segregated identities and names etc. as in other documented cases. All I see is one major split with potential for subsets emerging.

I think the vaginal manipulation was done by Patsy, the host, compulsively. This moral conflict within the host may be the trigger for the whole episode. I think this moral conflict associated with sex acts runs back through her marriage to John when she dutifully engaged in expected sex activity without a mature, knowing awareness of sex based on a natural, developed, authentic urge. She may well have been latent in those regards to the point that she engaged connublially in the mental state of a twenty something but emotionally as a pre-adolescent resulting in a sense of shame and resentment.

Blue Bottle, thank you for your many recent posts and for this one in particular.

To me, there were two very striking things about this case from the beginning. One was the sheer weirdness of it. Whether family did it, intruder did it, friend/acquaintace did it -- there seemed to be another element not wholely accounted for. The other was that, in their early public interviews and appearances, John and Patsy seemed relieved in some way. Despite their distress, they gave off a vibe of people who had been delivered from something. But what? What ended when JonBenet died, bringing that strange solace? Though I've pondered the question over the years, no answer has ever brought the shift inside that said, Yes. That's it.

Until now. Almost. I've always found your explanation of events compelling, but could not completely assent. This post brings me a step closer because it explains the oppression and relief. And yours is the only explanation that explains them. It was relief from Patsy's compulsive use of JonBenet and the moral conflict - the constant stress of it, the behaviors associated with it. Whether experienced immediately or sensed in the background, the internal tensions of a Borderline personality ensnare everyone in the home. Resolving the relationship with JonBenet (for lack of a better phrase) freed up John and Burke as well as Patsy - and JonBenet - albeit at a ghastly cost.

Back to the sheer weirdness -- The other factor I'm finding very persuasive is this (if I can articulate it): Other theories explore Patsy's psyche while leaving us firmly planted in ordinary life (Maybe she just lost it over the bedwetting. Maybe she was having a meltdown over all the Christmas pressure and turning 40. Extreme behavior, but we can understand it). Yours does the opposite. It takes us inside Patsy's fractured psyche, and from there we look out on a very altered world where ordinary things (pineapple, Christmas decorations, a daughter, e.g.) both are and aren't what they appear to be, and affect us in ways we both can and can't process. Reading your posts over the years, I would make that trip and say, Yes, this explanation makes a lot of sense. But when I "came back" to other posts and ideas, it seemed a fantasy, a provisional reality, something true only while I was in it. And therefore it probably wasn't the actual explanation. Well, I've been missing the point. None of the explanations grounded in ordinary life account for the sheer weirdness, only this one. If all the pieces fit when I'm "in" the distorted reality, then the distorted reality is the explanation.
 
Right from the basics NPD and BPD are polar opposites. The narcissist has a strong ego structure and the borderline a weak structure.

The narcissist "loves" their ego and loves to exercise it with people within a sphere of influence where their ego can be admired. Anyone outside the sphere is treated dismissively and seen for their faults. Anyone in is over praised and seen for their attributes deserving or not. Ironically narcissists will resent the ones in for their weakness and can be treated with undue authoritarianism while those outside can be cajoled passive/aggressively seeming to get special treatment as the narcissist tires to get them in the sphere.

Narcissists recognize others as individuals and cross boundaries to manipulate.

The narcissistic parent "inserts" their ego into offspring often inhibiting the child's ego devlopment leading to BPD. The child may "ape" the mother's ego as it funtions in them and become narcissists themselves.

The ego is used to mediate instinct and impulse and make decisions. The borderline has difficulty with this and compensates by devloping an intricate persona full of "routines" that are acted out socially very often to great success and acceptance while at the same time they feel "empty" inside. The routines substitute for decision making as the script already exists. Left on their own, without the social routine, borderlines have no ego to rely on and can sink into "chaos". They tend to make "all or nothing" relationships inside and out with other people and their own impulses, thus their reputation for sexual promiscuity, dependency and wide ranging, oscillating emotional displays. This oscillation is confused with bipolar disorder and is why the borderlines were "discovered" within the bi-polar population. The bipolars can be thought of oscillating up and down on a vertical axis of energy where borderlines oscillate on a horizontal axis of emotional extremes.

Borderlines cross boundaries and identify not to manipulate but to feed off others ego abilities via their personality displays. They can appear to be narcissitic and "self directed" when infact they have no authentic sense of self and cross boundaries looking for and feeding off that in others.

This is why borderlines are often mistaken for narcisists.

Dissociation is not merely periods of extreme emotional effect. That is just the beginning. Dissociation is when the effect leads to periods of a relatively few dominant persona factors segregated from the remaining factors with the ego "trapped' and unable to relate in a wider sense. Normally this passes without effort in time and the ego recovers it's wider authority.

Sometimes the condition lasts for extended periods with varying strength leading to fugue episodes.

The classic DID experience, which is very real and much more common than people know, is when these small number of persona fators gain a degree of autonomy and identity accompanied many times with names and even physical images (faces and body types, ages and even life histories).

The degree to which these split-off personas are segregated, aware of each other, can communicate with each other and influence (inhabit) the host and retreat is what so many find difficult to accept.

Like it or not this is human behavior and human history.
 
I concur there appeared a sincere lack of devastation over the loss of a treasured child and true human mourning was missing from the parents' demeanor within a very short while of the murder as exhibited in their personal appearances, media interviews and accounts from those who were close.


After Beth died on January 08, 1992, it was referred to as a watershed in JRs life. His world collapsed. The topic is heavily covered in detail by John in DOI.

Soon after JonBenét was found murdered in his home on December 26, 1996, JR said:
We're not angry.
I want to know why.


"Even Barbara Fernie, according to friends, began to have doubts. For months, she and Patsy had been inseparable - shopping, lunching, chatting on the phone. By early spring, Fernie began telling people, "I am the one grieving. Something is wrong with Patsy." Soon, friends say, Barbara was dropped from the Ramsey inner circle, though her husband, John, has continued his relationship with Ramsey, as have many other business associates."

~ Vanity Fair, 1997


Burke informed the child psychologist that he was "getting on with my life" since his sister's death.


Patsy remained heavily intoxicated on Valium for a while. Patsy and JR went on many mini vacations. Patsy resumed shopping and meeting friends for lunch until BR finished the school year with SS as a personal bodyguard.

Before purchasing a home in GA in the fall of '97, the three Ramsey's safely moved to their lake house in MI for two summer months where Patsy hastened to state to a passerby that she was the mother of Little Miss Christmas, JonBenét, America's Princess, who was kidnapped and murdered on Christmas Day in Boulder. Would you like to see her room?


ETA - This was posted without realizing BB had posted a marvelous synopsis of Patsy's profile.
 
Psychotics who "create destruction" are often proud that they "had it figured out" when others didn't. They are delusional in that despite evidence to the contrary they continue to keep the positive assessment of their acts, sometimes all the way to the gallows.

JonBenet was in a heaven with a God awaiting her mother's arrival. Patsy had that and that could not change no matter being faced with the truth by the media, the people or the law.

Personally, I could see it in her face as she settled in for interviews; a faint smug smile.
 
I have learned so much the past couple of days- thanks to the insightful posts by all of you, a discussion that has been allowed to occur by giving and taking here (this part I like the most) and for the links to outside detailed information that have been so thoughtfully shared.

Thank you so much DeeDee for all of the links you provided, I am only about half way through, but the insight I have gleaned so far is profound.

Bluebottle, I get confused at times by the different disorders but I am beginning to comprehend much better the subtle (and not so subtle) differences, thanks to you.

Graemcracker- your posts have been eye opening for me and I hang on your every word (metaphorically). You have the gift of explaining things, in a way that I easily understand! I appreciate you very much.

Meara- Your last post was amazing (I like all of your posts actually) but the thanks button just wasn't enough so 'Thank You' again!

I am really enjoying the flow and the respectful give and take happening in this thread right now- I hope it continues. We are all better off when it goes like this- even if we disagree, a thoughtful, considerate and honest exchange is occurring, and I really appreciate it.

How can anything change if we don't learn what truly happened (as close to it as we will ever know), understand the events leading up to the crime and how they unfolded, and what took place in the psyche of the person or people who committed the crime and the people or person who would cover for her/him/them.

I am learning so much- thanks to all of you wonderful posters.
 
Thanks from me to you - Cherry and Venom- I knew I was leaving someone important out... and Tawny- how could I forget you?!
 
Before purchasing a home in GA in the fall of '97, the three Ramsey's safely moved to their lake house in MI for two summer months where Patsy hastened to state to a passerby that she was the mother of Little Miss Christmas, JonBenét, America's Princess, who was kidnapped and murdered on Christmas Day in Boulder. Would you like to see her room?


ETA - This was posted without realizing BB had posted a marvelous synopsis of Patsy's profile.

Sick, sick, sick, sick, no matter what label, or what diagnosis you attach to it. Who seeks to exploit their child's murder like this????!!!!
 
The Anthony's tried to patent Caylee's name. They set up a "foundation" in Caylee's name that ultimately did nothing (except line their own pocket with money). They went on the Dr Phil show, where Dr Phil insisted the Anthony's werent paid (it was a 2-3 episode story) when in actuality The fraudulent foundation was gifted $600,000.00! The foundation did a few fluff events before it was disolved and the money was absorbed for personal use by the Anthony's. The grandmother, Cindy, perjured herself on the witness stand during the trial and the whole family lied and protected their daughter/sister murderer. The Anthony's were traveling to New York and California meeting with networks and book publishers shopping their "story" of Caylee and much, much more.
 
May I assume the respectable discussion is successful due to a certain interloper being appropriately placed on TO?

There is a most interesting case I followed here recently where the missing person had a form of psychosis. In her own mind, she developed a fantasy involving a mutual love affair with a certain clergyman she "met" on television. She actually moved from CA to MI to physically be nearer to him.

This make-believe relationship, that existed only in the mind of Taleka Patrick, was a love affair involving herself [the officially charged stalker, Dr. Patrick] and her victim [unbeknownst to the innocent clergyman].

Threads for Dr. Teleka Patrick:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240378&highlight=Teleka+Patrick

Entire tweeted conversations between Dr. Patrick and her lover were sent from Dr. Patrick to Dr. Patrick since her lover, although a real person, existed only in her mind.

Taleka, tweeted conversations about her love affair; however, interestingly, she deleted everything, including the photos, just before she went missing.

There was a photo Taleka uploaded to Twitter one evening showing the nutritious meal she had prepared for herself and her lover. The picture showed she set a table with two complete place settings and identical meals on two white plates sitting on two blue place mats. This doctor had prepared a meal for a man who would not be coming for dinner.

Savvy WS posters were able to recover her fascinating deleted tweets that we read in The Parking Lot at night.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234784"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


A great deal of insight into psychology was learned during those months of related research for Dr. Patrick's case.
 
The Anthony's tried to patent Caylee's name. They set up a "foundation" in Caylee's name that ultimately did nothing (except line their own pocket with money). They went on the Dr Phil show, where Dr Phil insisted the Anthony's werent paid (it was a 2-3 episode story) when in actuality The fraudulent foundation was gifted $600,000.00! The foundation did a few fluff events before it was disolved and the money was absorbed for personal use by the Anthony's. The grandmother, Cindy, perjured herself on the witness stand during the trial and the whole family lied and protected their daughter/sister murderer. The Anthony's were traveling to New York and California meeting with networks and book publishers shopping their "story" of Caylee and much, much more.

Ah ok. I know about everything except the foundation.

Now why does that sound familiar!
 
Ah ok. I know about everything except the foundation.

Now why does that sound familiar!

When my brother in law disappeared I flew out there immediately for several reasons but no less because of financial shenanigans that often swirl around tragedies. Sure enough, his parents started soliciting funds "to help in the search" and tried to get my sister in law to sign several pieces of paperwork while she was too upset and exhausted know what she was doing.
I shut that crap down immediately.

It's the new thing to ask for donations to set up foundations, etc. in disappearances, murder cases and funerals (think about it...they ask for donations to the family right there in the announcement and at the funeral home. ugh)
 
Her brother and/or her father. Leaning towards only the brother.
 
Cyril Wecht discusses his opinion

The 10th Nerve = Vagus Nerve
It splits and there's one running down each side of the neck.

Once the tightened cord restricted the vagus nerve, one on each side, it affected her heart and brain functions. Vagal Reflex caused by pressure from the cord around her neck caused her death. She could not be resuscitated.

Some time lapses, perhaps 45m. Then, the head blow occurred to make it appear the intruder did it by enhancing the CS w this vicious blow as staging.
Note: JB was alive during all of the injuries.

Video is set to begin at 04:08.

http://youtu.be/_wJYiEN1OnI?t=4m8s


Cyril Wecht describing the AR on JBs vaginal injuries. Video is set to begin at 06:00

http://youtu.be/_wJYiEN1OnI?t=6m

Old, chronic injuries seen at autopsy cannot be dated; ...days, to many days, old

1) Superficial erosion of mucosa lining of vaginal canal at the 7 o'clock position

2) Chronic inflammation; not fresh

3) Absence of a significant part of the hymen; old phenomenon; it's been gone


-----------------------

When Dr. Wecht explains JBs AR, the old, or chronic, sexual abuse is obvious. This innocent little girl, JonBenét, even if she had an unusual-shaped hymen, should not have these other injuries nor should her vaginal opening be twice the size it should be prior to her death.

OMOO
 
July 15, 1997
"The six portions not released Monday include the time of death and position of the girl's body. A description of the head wound had been omitted from the version of the autopsy released in February..."

"All but six portions of the autopsy were made public Monday after the state's highest court refused to hear prosecutors' arguments to keep them sealed."

"Part of the autopsy report confirming that JonBenet was strangled and indicating possible sexual assault was released in February, but Boulder County Coroner John Meyer sought to keep the rest under seal...

In May, Boulder District Judge Carol Glowinsky ordered all but six portions of the report released."

"The six portions not released Monday include the time of death and position of the girl's body. A description of the head wound had been omitted from the version of the autopsy released in February..."

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/15/news/mn-12754

"Dr. Cyril Wecht, the coroner in Allegheny County, Pa., said a child winding up in an emergency room with the injuries JonBenet suffered would be "immediately considered to have been a victim of child abuse."

"And not only on one occasion," he said."

"Once you eliminate the impossible, what remains - no matter how improbable - must be the answer."
~ Sherlock Holmes
 
thank you so much for posting those links! CW has such a genteel way of discussing graphic information. I still struggle with deciding which occurred first. I lean one way and then I hear something else and go the other way. is he the lone voice re ligature first? hmmm. the way he describes using the vasovagal response without intending death is convincing, yet her heart continued to beat long enough to cause blood loss after the head blow. if the VV response caused arrhythmia that would have stopped the heart fairly quickly. or no? a sustained period of arrhythmia? his interpretation of acute/chronic vaginal injury at the 7:00 position is logical. this case spins my head around

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasovagal_response"]Vasovagal response - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I've seen how quickly the response occurs and it's scary. (most of us have stood up too fast and felt faint or actually fainted. that's one aspect). the vagus nerve travels from the brain stem around and through various glands/organs all the way down to the colon, which is why RNs/LPNs perform digital disimpactions of fecal material while CNAs do not: the danger is that the heart's rhythm will be disturbed by the nerve's response when the wall of the rectum is manipulated. my sister (who is developmentally disabled) has fainted on the toilet three times: defecation syncope. one time I wasn't nearby and didn't know she was straining with a BM and she broke her nose when she hit the tile floor. she was talking to the cat in a normal voice and then I heard a sickening thud like someone had dropped a bowling ball. twice more I was right there because she had vomiting and diarrhea at the same time. the involuntary abdominal straining caused her to faint while I was holding her shoulders, and it happened so fast! I eased her to the floor and blood flow returned and she eventually woke up, but those few minutes were verrry long. what CW describes happening to/with JB's throat is chilling

did constipation kill Elvis? at autopsy his colon was found to be twice the normal length and diameter and contained a 4-5 month fecal impaction. he was on the toilet, he strained, vasovagal response, he hit the floor, crawled a short distance, and died. alone. remember when George Dubya had a shiner and a goose egg? IIRC he said he fell off the couch while watching TV? I always thought he fainted on the toilet but couldn't say so

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9312

(sorry for the OT part but I gots the insomnia tonight/this morning)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
159
Guests online
506
Total visitors
665

Forum statistics

Threads
608,452
Messages
18,239,611
Members
234,374
Latest member
Username4
Back
Top