Why were the boys tied in the manner they were?

[Compassionate Reader]

Getting this thread back on topic, let me say a word or so about the knots. A lot has been made about the description of the knots, making it appear that there were three distinct types of knots. That is simply not true. All of the knots were simple knots; all of the knots were a series of half-hitches. There weren't any distinctive, fancy knots like a hangman's knot or a sheep shank. There were only half hitches, the most common way to tie a knot.

What is most intriguing to me about the way the boys were tied is the slack between the knots. IMO, the slack was there to provide a "carrying handle" for the killer to use when he moved the bodies. Does anyone else have another explanation for the slack between the knots or the fact that the way the boys were tied could not possibly be for restraint?

(Sorry, this thread had gotten a bit OT. I thought I'd try to get it back on.)

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Out of curiosity, has anyone been able to match up which shoelaces came from which shoes? I don't, for the life of me, recall ever having seen/read that anywhere, and it bugs me to death as to why one of the boys had 2 different colored laces in used in his bindings. Small point, I know...but something about that has just always bugged me. No idea why.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

We discussed this point at length on the Blackboard. Paid, the author of the Manhole Theory, dug into the records and discovered that the ligatures binding Michael (the boy whose ligatures contained the hair attributed to Hobbs) were really one long shoestring, not from any of the boys' shoes (too long in total length for a child's shoe). From anecdotal evidence, it appears that the black laces were from Stevie's shoes, the white laces were from Michael's shoes (or I may have that backward), Chris' shoes had one lace still in one shoe and one lace unaccounted for, and the lace used to bind Michael is a foreign lace.

We speculated somewhat on that "foreign" lace, too. At the time, Terry Hobbs wore double-laced shoes. (The footprint at the discovery ditch is somewhat similar to LA Gears, and that brand was known for having the double-laced shoes back in the late eighties and early nineties.) One of Pam's sisters stated remembering seeing Terry's shoes shortly after the murders, and, instead of the normal two laces per shoe, he only had one lace per shoe. Note, this paragraph is highly speculative.

Another source for the "foreign" lace that we considered was a string from a sleeping bag or jacket bottom. The backpacks that were reported by one witness were never found, so their contents are still unknown. However, it is not outside the realm of possibility that there would be a sleeping bag or fleece jacket in one of them, if the boys (or one of the boys) were in fact planning to spend the night in the manhole.

I don't know if I can find the specific thread, but if I can, I'll link you to it. It's been a while, and, with the recent events, threads are getting lost! I'll try to search it out for you, though.

 

[Nova]

CR, I watching "Paradise Lost, Part 1" again last night. Of course, the shots of the children's bodies remain horrendous, but what was apparent after reading your posts is that the bindings were indeed too loose to restrict their movements much.

It's doubtful they could have stood up or run a marathon without removing the bindings, but otherwise, the hogtying did little to restrain them.

The bindings would not, for example, have stopped the boys from crawling away into the dark.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

CR, I watching "Paradise Lost, Part 1" again last night. Of course, the shots of the children's bodies remain horrendous, but what was apparent after reading your posts is that the bindings were indeed too loose to restrict their movements much.

It's doubtful they could have stood up or run a marathon without removing the bindings, but otherwise, the hogtying did little to restrain them.

The bindings would not, for example, have stopped the boys from crawling away into the dark.

Exactly! A supporter posting as "imout2sea" made a video showing that exact thing. If you haven't seen it, I know I've linked it somewhere. However, if you like, I'll find the link again. Just let me know.

 

[SheBoss]

Can someone help me please?

I've not been on here in the past few days because I've been reading the trial transcripts of Jessie's trial again. In it, (the way I'm reading it) Lisa S states that 2 boys (Byers and Branch?) were tied with a series of half hitches, while the other boy (Moore?) was tied with half hitches on one wrist/ankle and square knots on the other. Is this correct? I've had in my mind that 1 boy had squares, 1 boy had half hitches and 1 boy and half of one and half of the other. TIA!

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Can someone help me please?

I've not been on here in the past few days because I've been reading the trial transcripts of Jessie's trial again. In it, (the way I'm reading it) Lisa S states that 2 boys (Byers and Branch?) were tied with a series of half hitches, while the other boy (Moore?) was tied with half hitches on one wrist/ankle and square knots on the other. Is this correct? I've had in my mind that 1 boy had squares, 1 boy had half hitches and 1 boy and half of one and half of the other. TIA!

Remember that a square knot is just two half hitches, one tied right over left and the other left over right. So, in essence, all tying was done in half hitches which is what I always just called a loop.

You're reading it the way I do. IOW, there were not three different types of knots used - really only half hitches were used. The only difference was that on one side of one boy the direction of the half hitches was alternated instead of all being the same.

I still don't know how that "different knots indicating different killers" nonsense got started. Maybe it was in Fogleman's closing argument, but I don't remember off the top of my head. Wherever it got started, it's just another one of those misperceptions about this case that have haunted it from the beginning to now.

 

[Wishbone]

Can someone help me please?

I've not been on here in the past few days because I've been reading the trial transcripts of Jessie's trial again. In it, (the way I'm reading it) Lisa S states that 2 boys (Byers and Branch?) were tied with a series of half hitches, while the other boy (Moore?) was tied with half hitches on one wrist/ankle and square knots on the other. Is this correct? I've had in my mind that 1 boy had squares, 1 boy had half hitches and 1 boy and half of one and half of the other. TIA!

This is supposed to be her testimony....it made my head hurt to read it......hope you or someone else have better luck.

snipped

DIRECT EXAMINATION OF LISA SAKEVICIUS BY MR. FOGLEMAN


I work at the Arkansas State Crime Lab. I'm a criminalist at the Arkansas State Crime Lab and I do hair and fiber comparisons. (TR 2241) I am an expert in my field. (The witness was submitted as an expert in her field without objection by either defense attorney.) I received items from the Medical Examiner's Office for examination. State's Exhibits 80 is the ligature from Michael Moore. (TR 2242) State's Exhibit 82 is the ligature from Chris Byers. State's Exhibit 81 is the ligature from Steve Branch.

State's Exhibit 80 is the Michael Moore ligature. The left wrist consisted of a square knot, and I also removed a skin tag from inside the loop off the left leg. The right leg knot was a series of four half hitches, and the right wrist knot was a series of three half hitches. (TR 2243) On the left wrist of Michael Moore, we had a square knot and on the left ankle of Michael Moore there was a square knot. The right wrist had three half hitches. The right ankle had four half hitches. The left side had a particular type of knot, square knot, and on the right side was a different knot. The only difference between the wrist and ankle was an additional half hitch. On State's Exhibit 81 of Steve Branch, the right leg knot was a series of three half hitches and a loop around the leg was tied twice. The right wrist was a half hitch with a figure eight. The left leg knot was a series of three half hitches. The left wrist knot was a series of three half hitches. On Steve Branch on the left wrist we had three half hitches. (TR 2244) On the left ankle we had three half hitches. On the right wrist we had a half hitch with a figure eight. Then on the right ankle we had three half hitches with an extra loop around the leg. On the left side on the left wrist we had one type of knot and on the left ankle you have the exact same knot. There were three half hitches in both places. On the right side on the wrist we had one half hitch with a figure eight. On the ankle we had three half hitches with a loop on the leg. On the right side we had something a little different. (TR 2245) State's Exhibit 82 of Chris Byers on the left the knots were a series of two half hitches on the wrist. On both the left and right ankle and wrist you had double half hitches on all knots. On Chris Byers, every knot was the same.



http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/abstract/sakevicius.html

 

[claudicici]

...if I remember right what also confused me,isn't it correct that there were no mosquito bites on their little bodies?...that kind of makes me lean away from the being tied to be carried through the mosquito infested woods....that's what makes me think they were tortured and near death in someones residence after they were seen entering Robin Hood Hills and then when assumed dead,wrapped in something until they were returned to Robin Hill and thrown in the ditch ...

 

[Compassionate Reader]

...if I remember right what also confused me,isn't it correct that there were no mosquito bites on their little bodies?...that kind of makes me lean away from the being tied to be carried through the mosquito infested woods....that's what makes me think they were tortured and near death in someones residence after they were seen entering Robin Hood Hills and then when assumed dead,wrapped in something until they were returned to Robin Hill and thrown in the ditch ...

The "no mosquito bites" bothered me for quite a while. Then, I remembered seeing the mosquito treatment trucks going through my neighborhood during the Spring and summer when I was a child. They always treated the manholes, since men need to enter them from time to time. So, I just figured that the manholes had recently been treated. Once the bodies were moved to the ditch, they were dead. Mosquitoes don't bite dead bodies. Mystery solved, IMO.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Can someone help me please?

I've not been on here in the past few days because I've been reading the trial transcripts of Jessie's trial again. In it, (the way I'm reading it) Lisa S states that 2 boys (Byers and Branch?) were tied with a series of half hitches, while the other boy (Moore?) was tied with half hitches on one wrist/ankle and square knots on the other. Is this correct? I've had in my mind that 1 boy had squares, 1 boy had half hitches and 1 boy and half of one and half of the other. TIA!

Thank you for asking this and to everyone else for the replies. I was also under the impression that there were two different kinds of knots. I was under the impression so much that I actually thought that there were distinct differences in the knots from one boy to another and that the third was tied with a 50% combination of the two. After I finish with my assignments for this week, I am going to go look and see if there are any pics I can find of the knots and look at them. While I understand that the knots may not have been all that different, I am curious. My boys tie their shoelaces differently (very slight differences, one being left handed and the other being ambidextrous) . I can tell who tied whose shoes by the way that they are tied if I pay very close attention. If the knots are not different, just a different number of half hitches, then I am more willing to accept that there may not have been 2 people out there. I have to admit that DJ's willingness to be cooperative does bother me, as far as pointing any fingers.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

If your boys tie their shoes the way I do, the first step in the process is a half hitch. Just wanted to put that out there in case someone is still confused as to what a half hitch is.

 

[SheBoss]

Remember that a square knot is just two half hitches, one tied right over left and the other left over right. So, in essence, all tying was done in half hitches which is what I always just called a loop.

You're reading it the way I do. IOW, there were not three different types of knots used - really only half hitches were used. The only difference was that on one side of one boy the direction of the half hitches was alternated instead of all being the same.

I still don't know how that "different knots indicating different killers" nonsense got started. Maybe it was in Fogleman's closing argument, but I don't remember off the top of my head. Wherever it got started, it's just another one of those misperceptions about this case that have haunted it from the beginning to now.

Ah! OK! Thanks so much! I'm not a knot specialist, so I wasn't aware that a square was 2 half hitches in opposite directions. But still, that would conclude that even though "all knots" were tied the same way, one had to reverse the direction, right? That would sorta point to 2 killers. If I killed someone, I would tie all the knots the same way. And I wonder why Lisa S said it that way? If square knots are a series of half hitches, why did she call it out by square knot and the other "a series of half hitches"?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Ah! OK! Thanks so much! I'm not a knot specialist, so I wasn't aware that a square was 2 half hitches in opposite directions. But still, that would conclude that even though "all knots" were tied the same way, one had to reverse the direction, right? That would sorta point to 2 killers. If I killed someone, I would tie all the knots the same way. And I wonder why Lisa S said it that way? If square knots are a series of half hitches, why did she call it out by square knot and the other "a series of half hitches"?

The statement "a series of half hitches" just indicates that they were all tied either right over left or left over right. It seems to me that what happened is that occasionally, for whatever reason, a knot was tied in the opposite direction. I don't really think it was intentional. I just think that's the way it happened. Maybe it had to do with the length of the shoestring being used. Going the same way would take less length than alternating. I don't know. The only thing that I know is that the knots were not some sort of specialty knots as the jury was led to believe IMO. They were very simple knots, mainly half hitches.

 

[claudicici]

I have to say I have a really hard time understanding the testimony by that expert.
Didn't she come across that hair inside of MM's ligature while she was analyzing knots and hitches????
Having watched Paradise Lost again it really is perplexing the way they were tied.Does anyone know of any other case where the victims were tied that way?
I don't know about the being tied like that to be carried theory.
Since it was so loose wouldn't the bodies slouch to the ground?
I don't know ,I just can't shake the horrible feeling that it was sexual type bonding.
Sex crimes in itself are more about domineering than sex anyways.
I really think the boys were made to undress,maybe even tie up each other in a sick torture of showing dominance over them

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I have to say I have a really hard time understanding the testimony by that expert.
Didn't she come across that hair inside of MM's ligature while she was analyzing knots and hitches????
Having watched Paradise Lost again it really is perplexing the way they were tied.Does anyone know of any other case where the victims were tied that way?
I don't know about the being tied like that to be carried theory.
Since it was so loose wouldn't the bodies slouch to the ground?
I don't know ,I just can't shake the horrible feeling that it was sexual type bonding.
Sex crimes in itself are more about domineering than sex anyways.
I really think the boys were made to undress,maybe even tie up each other in a sick torture of showing dominance over them

The bodies would hang down but would not drag the ground. A poster named imout2sea did an experiment in which she mimicked the manner in which the bodies were tied to see if she could move, etc. She found out that the binding allowed for movement, even for her to untie her own binding (if left alive and alone) and that the binding did allow her to be picked up and carried for a short distance.

Here's the imout2sea video: http://rugsville.yuku.com/topic/1062

Sorry about it being so small, but that's the best I could find. Notice that her husband was able to pick her up by the shoestrings, and she weighed 108 pounds. The boys only weighed about 45 - 60 pounds each. That's considerably less weight which would IMO allow the bodies to be carried a much further distance, especially when you consider that the boys were dead when carried to the discovery ditch and I'm sure that imout2sea's husband didn't want to hurt his wife by carrying her by the bindings.

I know of no other cases with similar tying. The closest, as I've said before, is hogs in a slaughter house. They have the same-side limbs tied together, with slack left to enable the workers to carry the carcass for a short distance.

Lisa Sakevicius' testimony can be confusing because, basically, she can't say anything with any certainty. The fibers are "microscopically similar" but can't be definitely linked to any specific garment. The knots are so similar that no conclusion can be drawn, although the prosecution tried mightily to leave the impression with the jury that the knots were three different types of knots indicating three killers. However, Sakevicius never made a statement to that effect. She just pointed out that the bodies were tied primarily with half hitches relieved with the occasional square knot, which is two half hitches tied in opposite directions.

One misperception I'd like to clear up is the location of the hair in the ligature. I had thought for a long time that it was embedded in the knot of the ligature; it wasn't. It is my understanding from all of my reading that it was under the knot, indicating IMO that the hair (which was a beard hair) fell out right before the knot was tied, possibly right after the killer had tried to bite through the shoelace to divide it into two parts. Remember, Michael Moore was not bound with two shoelaces but with one lace cut into two pieces.

As to the sexual bondage theory, I guess it's possible that a sexual sadist would bind bodies that way. However, I don't see the positioning as being conducive to allowing sexual access unless the boys were dead when the sexual attack took place. As the video shows, the binding would allow a lot of movement from a live subject. If they were bound as a part of some sexual attack or assault, I believe that the attack would have occurred after death. I know that's a pretty sick thought. Also, remember that no semen or other indication of sexual activity was found on any of the boys' bodies. Therefore, I rule out any sexual reason for the binding.