Identified! WI - Delafield, WhtMale, UP7632, car stolen, lighter, Sep'77 - John Lindberg Scott

[lieber32]

If the library books belonged to the John Doe, it makes me wonder why LE didn't track down the library and who had taken out those books at the time.

I'm new here and have read through some of the posts.You are all doing a great job researching this case.

I thought the same thing until I remember that I lived in another state, two hours away and my dad who moved to St.Louis Mo when I was eight was always able to get us a library card (I had a St.Louis library card until I turned eighteen) even though me and my younger brother lived in another state. I now have to apply for my own card and all I need is a piece of mail with my address. In five years they have never asked to see a picture ID. I could have stolen someones address and gotten a library card.

 

[McSpy]

Yeah, I see what you mean. I also smoothed out the color of his hair, in addition to a few other minor things. I doubt that he combed his hair back like that. He probably had bangs, but the coroner combed his hair back for the photo.

When I work on these things, it always seems that I think I have everything right, until I walk away and come back a few hours (or days) later. Then the things I didn't get quite right become more obvious.

You should send this to LE. Maybe they can get it out to help ID this John doe. Job well done!

 

[masnitram]

Regarding Cook County...Detective Mark Czworniak ,who is the Chicago PD's Namus Liaison, is looking into the potential connection with our JD and the Gacy case. He replied to my email earlier this AM.


"I will look into this on Thursday when I return to the office. It may take some time, but I'll see what I can find out for you."

 

[Cubby]

thanks mas' (I hope you don't mind if I abbv your screen name).

Can you give us an idea of the content of your email? I'm curious which route or aspect Cook Cty is going to be 'researching'.

tia

 

[Cubby]

You should send this to LE. Maybe they can get it out to help ID this John doe. Job well done!

That's not a bad idea. The detective might be able to offer some feedback on the recon.

 

[masnitram]

thanks mas' (I hope you don't mind if I abbv your screen name).

Can you give us an idea of the content of your email? I'm curious which route or aspect Cook Cty is going to be 'researching'.

tia

No problem Cub' :innocent: Here is bulk of the email I sent:


"What we're trying to connect here is if there is any potential John Wayne Gacy connections to this man. I say this because of the timing of both cases is close and perhaps this John Doe was reported missing from relatives in Cook County....perhaps a possible connection to the unidentified remaining victims. While it is obvious he his NOT one of the nine unidentified...is there anyone who matches his description that is thought to be a Gacy victim, or was reported missing around September of 1977? Incidently the John Doe had a lighter with the inscription "To John From Lauri" on his possession that did not belong to the true owner of the vehicle.

I spoke with Detective ***** ***** (262-***-****) from the Waukesha County Sheriffs Dept regarding the Delafield, WI case and received some excellent information. I have not approached Detective ****** about any Cook County connection, however I have asked him if he has looked into DuPage County due to the proximity of the clothing store (Gaede's) in Wheaton ,the John Doe was thought to have purchased clothing, the DuPage County Jail (it's old home in the old courthouse), and the Wheaton Public Library where we think the library books may have came from (no record of the actual books exists, so it is purely speculative).

In addition to the information found online regarding the John Doe; Detective ***** shared with me the following information. I'm not sure if this is useful, but I figured I'd throw it out there for you.

Thank you for any assistance or information you can provide.

Sincerely,

Sam ******"

**The info that I posted earlier from my initial call from Waukesha County was included here as well.

** I deleted the name of the Waukesha detective only because I am not sure if I asked him if I could post it, better to be safe then sorry...

 

[Cubby]

Thanks mas'

I'm glad Cook Cty is willing to at least take a look at this possible connection. I'm sure they had many inquiries some who may not have official MP reports we can find online.

Also, FWIW, in some jurisdictions, not necessarily Cook, I am mentioning this in general, once a MP becomes an adult their family has to refile or rerequest a MP case. I recall this with the Maricopa Cty Jane Doe case. Once Tawni turned 18 her MP file was dropped. (She was 17 when she was reported missing and found not long after she was missing but remained unidentified for appx a decade. )

Hoping Cook can find some possibles for us or Waukesha Cty.

 

[masnitram]

Thanks mas'

I'm glad Cook Cty is willing to at least take a look at this possible connection. I'm sure they had many inquiries some who may not have official MP reports we can find online.

Also, FWIW, in some jurisdictions, not necessarily Cook, I am mentioning this in general, once a MP becomes an adult their family has to refile or rerequest a MP case. I recall this with the Maricopa Cty Jane Doe case. Once Tawni turned 18 her MP file was dropped. (She was 17 when she was reported missing and found not long after she was missing but remained unidentified for appx a decade. )

Hoping Cook can find some possibles for us or Waukesha Cty.

Good point. When you say the MP file was dropped, does that literally mean that the file is destroyed or just filed away? I assume that depends on the jurisdiction, but I really don't know how that works.

 

[CarlK90245]

Thanks mas'
Also, FWIW, in some jurisdictions, not necessarily Cook, I am mentioning this in general, once a MP becomes an adult their family has to refile or rerequest a MP case. I recall this with the Maricopa Cty Jane Doe case. Once Tawni turned 18 her MP file was dropped. (She was 17 when she was reported missing and found not long after she was missing but remained unidentified for appx a decade. )

That was also the case with Bambi Dick (who disappeared from Davenport IA, and remained a UID in Amarillo TX for 25 years). The MP report was dropped from the NCIC system after her 18th birthday. Many MP reports involving teens are dropped from the NCIC database, or were never accepted in the first place because the MP was over 18, and therefore, he/she "has the right to be missing".

I'd bet that this is probably the case with many of our other prominent MP cases involving teens (e.g., Walker County JD, Caledonia JD, etc.)

 

[Cubby]

Good point. When you say the MP file was dropped, does that literally mean that the file is destroyed or just filed away? I assume that depends on the jurisdiction, but I really don't know how that works.

I'm not sure. It seems they just happen to close out or fall into the deep dark abyss once the minor becomes an adult. I don't think they are destroyed just closed and perhaps filed away someone in off location storage? And if the family does not request the report to stay open after the 18th birthday some families mistakingly believe there is still an open missing persons report. Of course I believe this would be a local jurisdiction decision so we really don't know where exactly this might occur and how many families may be affected.

hth

 

[carbuff]

Unfortunately Carbuff there is nothing in the report that states the sizes of any of the clothing found. And because of the evidence purge done by Waukesha County back in 83/84 (for cases deemed "unsolvable") the clothing is long gone.

I knew the clothing and stuff was long gone, but I was hoping for notes or something. Oh well.

It occured to me that if it was his clothing, perhaps he had a disagreement with his family over that, and was thrown out. They might have tossed all his stuff on the lawn -- JD desperate, stealing a car he could hotwire, trying to get to a friend's or relative's house for shelter. Or something along those lines. He might never have been reported missing because of that.

 

[Cubby]

I knew the clothing and stuff was long gone, but I was hoping for notes or something. Oh well.

It occured to me that if it was his clothing, perhaps he had a disagreement with his family over that, and was thrown out. They might have tossed all his stuff on the lawn -- JD desperate, stealing a car he could hotwire, trying to get to a friend's or relative's house for shelter. Or something along those lines. He might never have been reported missing because of that.

That wouldn't be out of the ordinary for an ultra conservative town like Wheaton IL - especially in the 70's. Probably not relevent to the case, but IIRC Wheaton was a 'dry' town until sometime in the 80's. Just as an example of how conservative the Wheaton area is known to be.

I also can't help but wonder about a coat in mid September. Seems a bit too early in the season for me to think about someone needing a coat. (I should prolly look up the temps for Delafield, Gurnee and DuPage for the 13th and 14th). His carrying the clothing made me wonder if he was a transient - but I dismissed that thought because he appeared to be clean shaven in the morgue photo. Of course if he was in trouble it is likely he could have lived like a vagabond and kept his belongings in bags as a matter of routine. Or he could have had some of these items when/if he was booked and they were returned to him upon release.

jmo

 

[Cubby]

Chicago DuPage Weather for Sept 13th:

max: 66
min: 62

rain, fog, visibility 3 miles.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...y=Wheaton&req_state=IL&req_statename=Illinois


Gurnee is not listed the following is for Waukegan. Used Sept 14th due to the hour of the am accident.

max: 72
min: 53

nothing about rain or fog/visibility.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...ty=Gurnee&req_state=IL&req_statename=Illinois


Delafield WI for the 14th.

Shows a low of 48 so I guess the coat was necessary..
and perhaps we've had so much warmer weather lately needing a coat in mid sept threw me.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...elafield&req_state=WI&req_statename=Wisconsin

 

[carbuff]

Chicago DuPage Weather for Sept 13th:

max: 66
min: 62

rain, fog, visibility 3 miles.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...y=Wheaton&req_state=IL&req_statename=Illinois


Gurnee is not listed the following is for Waukegan. Used Sept 14th due to the hour of the am accident.

max: 72
min: 53

nothing about rain or fog/visibility.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...ty=Gurnee&req_state=IL&req_statename=Illinois


Delafield WI for the 14th.

Shows a low of 48 so I guess the coat was necessary..
and perhaps we've had so much warmer weather lately needing a coat in mid sept threw me.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...elafield&req_state=WI&req_statename=Wisconsin

If this guy's coat was like the one my brother used to have, it's quite light, not much warmer than a sport coat.

 

[masnitram]

http://www.processofelimination.info/martincase.html

I was looking around at a few other local (Wisconsin/Illinois) cases and came accross the Ruth Martin/Michael Mansfield case. I'm not sure if there are any potential connections; but one thing I found interesting from the article I read is that Ruth Martin drove a Pontiac Catalina (no model year mentioned). Bonnie Thompson who wrote a book about the case is speculating that convicted murderer Russell Smrekar did not act alone and probably had help.

Here are the possible correlations/similarities with this John Doe:

1. Ruth Martin drove a Pontiac Catalina

*John Doe stole a 1962 Pontiac Catalina

There was nothing special about the stolen car according to the Waukesha Detective. Now did JD steal the car because he was familiar with the make/model?

2. "Kool" cigarette butts were mentioned as being found in Ruth's ashtray...she smoked Virginia Slims.

*John Doe had a zippo lighter; I know this may be a stretch...but why carry a lighter if you're not a smoker. An "arsonist" theory is a bit too out there for me. ( I do understand that just because JD may have been a smoker doesn't mean anything...a lot of people smoked back then....)

I understand that his may be a stretch, but perhaps our JD caught wind of a pending arrest or felt the LE "heat" and decided to leave town. I don't know...but if I don't get anything from Waukesha or Cook Co regarding the connections/possibilities we came up with here; this may be the next route.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/martin_ruth.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mansfield_michael.html

Thoughts?

 

[Cubby]

Sam, I'm not familiar with the Mansfield/Martin cases but I don't know how we'd really go from a possible accomplise to tying the two together based on a make and model car and cigarette lighter. Not much to go on. Smerker could have smoked Kools, no?

I really think this UID took the car in the early hours of the morning because he stumbled upon an unplanned opportunity. And likely with it being so early he probably banked on being to his destination, dump the car and be long gone before the owner noticed it missing and reported it stolen. Especially if he had just been released from jail. Most people I think, don't want to go back and don't necesarily take such risks so shortly after being released. (Provided there is any accuracy to that theory of course).

The timelines are off for the Martin Mansfield cases and while one went missing from Rolling Meadows in 75 I think this is a bit of a stretch. It sounds like much of that case was in Central? IL in the Lincoln area.... JMO respectfully.

No notes of finding any cigarette butts in the stolen car and if the owner smoked?

Sometimes there are luls in cases and I think we might be approaching one as we awaiting info from the detectives on this one.

 

[masnitram]

Sam, I'm not familiar with the Mansfield/Martin cases but I don't know how we'd really go from a possible accomplise to tying the two together based on a make and model car and cigarette lighter. Not much to go on. Smerker could have smoked Kools, no?

I really think this UID took the car in the early hours of the morning because he stumbled upon an unplanned opportunity. And likely with it being so early he probably banked on being to his destination, dump the car and be long gone before the owner noticed it missing and reported it stolen. Especially if he had just been released from jail. Most people I think, don't want to go back and don't necesarily take such risks so shortly after being released. (Provided there is any accuracy to that theory of course).

The timelines are off for the Martin Mansfield cases and while one went missing from Rolling Meadows in 75 I think this is a bit of a stretch. It sounds like much of that case was in Central? IL in the Lincoln area.... JMO respectfully.

No notes of finding any cigarette butts in the stolen car and if the owner smoked?

Sometimes there are luls in cases and I think we might be approaching one as we awaiting info from the detectives on this one.

I appreciate that Cubby; just wanted to throw it out there in case what we're doing now leads nowhere. I wasn't implying turning our attention off what we have done so soon; more like planning ahead, but I do understand your point completely. I'll kick back and wait to hear from the detectives and go from there.

I've never been a fan of luls....just ask my wife; I need to learn to be more patient :blushing:

 

[Cubby]

No need to kick back. I dunno, without a name we can't even see if we can tie this UID to the known killer of the two MP cases you mentioned. I just can't come up with any idea's on how we might be able to tie the two together.

I hear you about not being patient sometimes - but us Cub fans have over a century of practise and for some- well probably all of us that is our entire lifetime. lol. Sending you some Cub fan patience, lol!

 

[Cubby]

Another thought. I couldn't find anything online but maybe something at the Wheaton or one of the larger libraries in the area might have recent arrests listed?

I know those 'Police Blotters' are published now but unsure if they were in the 70's.

If the Wheaton public library doesn't have them, perhaps College of DuPage's library might as COD is one of the largest junior colleges in the country. COD is not too far 10-15 min from Downtown Wheaton. I've never used it outside of when I attended COD but I think that library is open to the public/non students. Might be worth checking into if something like a police blotter was published back then. That might help he was arrested booked and released close to the date he was discovered.

hth

eta: Forgot to add COD is in Glen Ellyn, IL which is next to Wheaton.

 

[masnitram]

No need to kick back. I dunno, without a name we can't even see if we can tie this UID to the known killer of the two MP cases you mentioned. I just can't come up with any idea's on how we might be able to tie the two together.

I hear you about not being patient sometimes - but us Cub fans have over a century of practise and for some- well probably all of us that is our entire lifetime. lol. Sending you some Cub fan patience, lol!

Very true; I was caught off guard by the Pontiac Catalina being mentioned in regards to Ruth Martin AND the 1962 model stolen by our JD. However if the similarities stop there it would be a tough search for more connections.

Off topic: I won't really be kicking back, nor digging out my Billy Williams cards anytime soon. Ya know I did use Bob Dernier and Chico Walker cards in my bicycle spokes to make that "cool sound" :crazy: