Identified! WI - Delafield, WhtMale, UP7632, car stolen, lighter, Sep'77 - John Lindberg Scott

[Cubby]

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=425+22nd+Street,+Glen+Ellyn,+IL+60137-6599+(College+of+DuPage)&daddr=501+College+Av.,+Wheaton,+IL+60187+(Wheaton+College)&geocode=Ffd2fgId0iLA-iF4vMivgWgIDQ%3BFc3afgIdwLi_-iEDNefLNrB5Aw&gl=us&hl=en&mra=pd&mrcr=0&sll=41.8557,-88.085532&sspn=0.057025,0.110035&ie=UTF8&z=14

10 min or 4.2 miles between COD and Wheaton College.

 

[Cubby]

I hope those Bob Dernier BB cards were from when he played with the Phillies, lol.

I think there were probably a lot of Catalina's built back then. The guy was clean shaven, shorter hair cut. Not the long hair that was still 'in' with the 'burn out' crowd in the late 70's. My guess would be the muscle car kind of person or the type that liked to tinker with cars. I don't know if that year and model were 'in' like the mid to late 60's cars were in the 70's that is the type he reminds me of.

jmo

 

[masnitram]

I hope those Bob Dernier BB cards were from when he played with the Phillies, lol.

I think there were probably a lot of Catalina's built back then. The guy was clean shaven, shorter hair cut. Not the long hair that was still 'in' with the 'burn out' crowd in the late 70's. My guess would be the muscle car kind of person or the type that liked to tinker with cars. I don't know if that year and model were 'in' like the mid to late 60's cars were in the 70's that is the type he reminds me of.

jmo

I know wikipedia isn't always the most reliable, but I can't find a reason to dispute what they say about the Catalina. At least this helps me realize the lack of a connection between the other cases I brought up....I didn't realize that it was a very popular model (I was a baby in 1977!)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Catalina

"Throughout most of the 1960s when Pontiac annually captured third place in industry sales, behind Chevrolet and Ford, the Catalina was also often the industry's third best-selling full-sized car behind the first-place Chevrolet Impala and second-place Ford Galaxie 500."


Off Topic: Yeah,...um...I will say it was when he was with the Phillies if saying otherwise will get me 'banned'

 

[nerosleuth]

I know those 'Police Blotters' are published now but unsure if they were in the 70's.

Might be worth checking into if something like a police blotter was published back then. That might help he was arrested booked and released close to the date he was discovered.

That's an excellent idea here about checking to see if the local newspapers had a police blotter.

Were there any weekly community newspapers way back then?

Some areas may have a weekly community newspaper in addition to a local daily newspaper.

The local weekly community newspapers may have crime reports and some might even have arrest reports.

The crime and arrest reports may or may not list the names of the parties involved, but it may note if anything occurred in a certain area during a certain period.

Also, some weekly community newspapers might have a traffic citation report that notes local and out of town residents that were pulled over for a traffic violation.

 

[carbuff]

I hope those Bob Dernier BB cards were from when he played with the Phillies, lol.

I think there were probably a lot of Catalina's built back then. The guy was clean shaven, shorter hair cut. Not the long hair that was still 'in' with the 'burn out' crowd in the late 70's. My guess would be the muscle car kind of person or the type that liked to tinker with cars. I don't know if that year and model were 'in' like the mid to late 60's cars were in the 70's that is the type he reminds me of.

jmo

He doesn't look like a jailbird or a car guy to me. He's well dressed, clean cut, like a guy who works in an insurance agency or sells cars or something.

 

[Cubby]

That's an excellent idea here about checking to see if the local newspapers had a police blotter.

Were there any weekly community newspapers way back then?

Some areas may have a weekly community newspaper in addition to a local daily newspaper.

The local weekly community newspapers may have crime reports and some might even have arrest reports.

The crime and arrest reports may or may not list the names of the parties involved, but it may note if anything occurred in a certain area during a certain period.

Also, some weekly community newspapers might have a traffic citation report that notes local and out of town residents that were pulled over for a traffic violation.

There are a great many towns, cities and villages in DuPage county. IIRC each town put out their own police blotters. (list at the bottom of the wiki page)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuPage_County,_Illinois

I was too young to be reading the papers back in 77. What I recall Chicago had their daily papers but the burbs had them put out once or twice a week. Of course that is only the small area I recall I can't say for all of them. If this guy was arrested in Dup' he could have been arrested in any of the above listed towns and transfered to Wheaton. Also, he could have been arrested released in any of the listed towns and had a court date some time in the future for which he would have been required to attend and then done whatever amount of time in DuPage.

Just thinking outloud.

 

[Cubby]

He doesn't look like a jailbird or a car guy to me. He's well dressed, clean cut, like a guy who works in an insurance agency or sells cars or something.

Having been local to the area all my life and hung out with the muscle car crowds in the early 80's he looks very much like the local car group type from that time era. The car groups that drove either the muscle cars or older custom cars were mostly clean cut - at least in this immediate area. I can't speak for outside of the DuPage area. there were some known hang outs for the car groups and they were all or almost all clean cut. They considered themselves very apart from the longer haired burn out style. At least they did back then.

I think he was likely provided the clothing via the court to be presentable for his court date or participated in some kind of community program prior to being released - if he was incarcerated. At least that is my theory based on what we know about where he likely purchased the clothing.

 

[carbuff]

Having been local to the area all my life and hung out with the muscle car crowds in the early 80's he looks very much like the local car group type from that time era. The car groups that drove either the muscle cars or older custom cars were mostly clean cut - at least in this immediate area. I can't speak for outside of the DuPage area. there were some known hang outs for the car groups and they were all or almost all clean cut. They considered themselves very apart from the longer haired burn out style. At least they did back then.

I think he was likely provided the clothing via the court to be presentable for his court date or participated in some kind of community program prior to being released - if he was incarcerated. At least that is my theory based on what we know about where he likely purchased the clothing.

The clothes just seem too expensive for either a released prisoner or a court date or anything along those lines. Also nicer than most of the car guys like my dad would normally wear. His hair, yes, that fits.

 

[Cubby]

The clothing does seem a bit on the expensive side, but I think that is because the store was listed as having formal wear. I'm not sure it means they were exclusive to selling formal wear. They may have carried other lines they didn't advertise as heavily.

Another thing that might be interesting to find at the local library. More info about the clothing store. Possibly local ads.

The fur collar is a bit funky. I seem to recall those maroon leather jackets that I think were big in the 70's. Can't tie which years they fit with being so young myself in the 70's. Fur collar might be a little more disco? or a bar fly? Depending on the fur collar though it might have been more like an old mans coat that could have been passed along or discounted on clearance.

just more outloud thoughts

 

[carbuff]

The clothing does seem a bit on the expensive side, but I think that is because the store was listed as having formal wear. I'm not sure it means they were exclusive to selling formal wear. They may have carried other lines they didn't advertise as heavily.

Another thing that might be interesting to find at the local library. More info about the clothing store. Possibly local ads.

The fur collar is a bit funky. I seem to recall those maroon leather jackets that I think were big in the 70's. Can't tie which years they fit with being so young myself in the 70's. Fur collar might be a little more disco? or a bar fly? Depending on the fur collar though it might have been more like an old mans coat that could have been passed along or discounted on clearance.

just more outloud thoughts

Yeah, more noodling here too:

Around Montana, where I grew up, coats like this were popular among men who had to dress up a bit for their jobs, and who had to go out in cooler weather. Appraisers, stock buyers, auctioneers, that sort of job. I don't think my dad ever owned one but the more well-to-do ranchers who came into the shop often wore them when they were going into town on business. Usually black wool, wool tweed, or herringbone.

I don't know whether Illinois/Wisconsin would have followed a similar pattern, though.

I'm sure Gaedes carried less expensive lines, but it would still be unusual for a menswear shop like that to carry anything really basic. Though if they were the only place in town, that might make a difference.

 

[Cubby]

<edited out, not accurate due to known case facts> There were other clothing stores in the immediate area, but I can't say how many. I do know if he was on foot outside of the train going into Chicago there were few choices to purchase clothing in the immediate area. The only public transportation is still limited to getting people to the train or the mall, but these buses run infrequently. It is not considered reliable and this is not an area one would not need a car.

I wish I could better describe the downtown Wheaton area. I found a link to a pic. If I added it would blow the margins so adding the link.

http://prairiepathapartments.com/images/dsc00777.jpg

Oh wow, I think this is the street the Gaedes store was located on (and that was by chance) IIRC it was across from the theatre which one can see on the left. I noticed the rail road crossing/gates down in the back ground too.

OMG it is! The store was located at 124 N Hale and the theatre address is 119 N Hale! I wonder if that means this UID is sending us a sign to help him get home. The odds of me just randomly finding this pic. freaky. (eta and this is the first pic I chose to look at.... weird).

I'm trying to put together clean cut guy who had to be at X destination he likely traveled all night to get there. What was the hurry? And such a hurry he stole a car?

 

[nerosleuth]

Since the JD is considered to be a local by LE, does LE think he was more from the Chicagoland area or the Milwaukee area?

Now about the area where the car accident occurred where our JD was killed at. While I'm not from that area, it seems to me that he probably wasn't familiar with that road when he was driving on it at that time of the morning.

What I'm saying is that if he was from that area or was familiar with that road, he would have known about the sharp curve and he probably wouldn't have went off of the roadway.

But on the chance that he could have been from either the Chicagoland or Milwaukee areas, it might be wise to check senior photos from high school yearbooks back from the early to mid 1970's. The genealogy department at the local public library may have old high school yearbooks. That would be another source to look at in the local public library.

 

[Cubby]

The Wheaton library has the local public school yearbooks. They don't have the one Catholic HS in Wheaton that I had asked about for a different case ages ago....

I may go check out the HS yearbooks over the Christmas holiday if I can get a sitter or on a weekend the kiddo is at his dads. If they are open then. The libraries here sometimes have weird hours revolving around when school is in session.

 

[masnitram]

A detective from the Chicago PD has given me some information and thoughts on this case. Some info on the JWG (John Wayne Gayce) case/connections as well. He sent me two emails yesterday which are posted below....

Email #1 (received yesterday AM)

"Let me bring you up to date on what I have been able to discover thus far.

As you certainly well know the initial investigation into JWG was conducted by the DesPlaines Illinois Police Department and the subsequent homicide investigations run by the Cook County Sheriff Police. The Chicago Police Department had little to do with the investigations, but did forward info, tips and clues about Missing Persons and potential Victims as well as some potential identifications on the still unidentified Victims to the CCSP as they came in.

At one time there was a "Running File," kept by the CPD containing the aforementioned tips and clues, and reports generated by a select few of CPD detectives who were working the JWG case. I have attempted to locate this "Running File," without success.
All of the investigators/detectives who may have had the opportunity to work on JWG have since retired or passed away.

The Chicago Police Department has a very unique retention policy for retaining reports, including Running Files, and that is six years for any not homicide related investigations. Since JWG was not classified as a Chicago Homicide investigation, all records were subsequently purged sometime in 1982.

I am attempting to locate any of the retired detectives who worked JWG in an effort to see if they have copies of the Running File.

I know from pervious inquires, that all of the Cook County and Des Plaines P.D. personal that worked JWG are retired.

The Medical Examiner of Cook County was charged with identifying the John Does and they did a remarkable job with the facial reconstruction. CCME did not then and still does not today routinely take DNA samples.

I have requested through NCIC that an "off line," search be conducted using the search parameters of the John Doe from Delafield, WI, of persons reported Missing, Nationwide from 1977 and are still missing as of today.

The inherent problem with this type of search is that NCIC requires yearly validations on each Missing Person Case entered into the NCIC Database. If NCIC does not receive a validation from an entering Law Enforcement Agency, the entry is automatically purged from NCIC. In larger departments like Chicago, cases are routinely purged because the agency does not have the resources to go back and update the investigation status.
Each year thousands of Missing Person Cases in NCIC get purged, even though the subjects are still missing.

As far as the fingerprints were concerned with the Delafield Doe, they would have been rolled ink prints on a standard fingerprint card. If the cards weren&#8217;t prepared correctly, which means they were subsequently unreadable, then neither the state or federal government Bureaus of Identification could determine a fingerprint classification. Back then, before computers, each person fingerprints were given a classification number, essential a VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) for humans. A finger print check is not done against missing persons, it is done against State and Federal Arrest Records. The FBI having the largest database of fingerprints in the world.

Trained fingerprint experts would always come up with this same classification number when examining the same fingerprints. I would think that with today's fingerprint technology, an effort might be made to "clean up," the fingerprint cards and have a better chance at finding them in the Federal Fingerprint database.

You might want to suggest this to Detective ******.

My thoughts on this are the John DOE , being in a stolen vehicle, probable had been arrested some point before and I doubt that his first endeavor in a life of crime, was stealing the car that he eventually crashed in.

I know from personal experience, that no agency will incur the course of an exhumation unless there is a pretty good chance that they have an identified family member whom they could take a DNA sample from.

Also from my experience, I have learned that hundreds of people go missing and are NEVER reported as such by any friends or family. There are something like forty-eight thousand unidentified bodies nationwide!

Is there any of the evidence still available, such as the clothing he was wearing? Perhaps DNA can be recovered from the clothing. Also, here in Cook County, a blood card is routinely taken and stored, from all deceased. Does the Waukesha County Medical Examiner/Coroner have a blood card stored someplace?

Although the JWG investigation was before my start in Law Enforcement , I did manage to read every book or publication involved with JWG and I do recall that several family did come forward in hopes that their loved ones may have been one of the identified Victim. (it was also feared that families were too ashamed to come forward, realizing they had a gay son.)

I just don't know where if any, this information is being kept, and I will keep looking for you, as time permits.

I can tell you that most law enforcement agencies do not have the manpower or finances to keep missing person cases going for very long, and I haven&#8217;t found anyone in either the CCSP or the Medical Examiners Office who will extend any help to me. ( I have had other requests for help with JWG from organizations like Web Sleuths).

So this is how this phase of your investigation should continue. When I receive a list of possible Missings from NCIC, I will collate the names, (if any) that were returned according to the submitted search parameters. Depending on the length of the list, I will attempt to rank the match possibilities from highest to lowest and then identify any next of kin. Perhaps if there is a good potential match and maternal DNA is available, then Detective ******* can secure an exhumation and get a confirmative match.

This may take some time, as this type of work is not my primary duty here at the CPD.

I will be in contact with as new information comes in."

Email #2 (received late yesterday evening)

"I will pass along your suggestions to Detective ***** as well as see what he says. I know there are two links online for the Delafield John Doe in Namus. One of them has some type of letter/number codes for the fingerprints...

RTP0PI151712
LTPIPI151417

https://identifyus.org/cases/4792 - Fingerprint info from the original Namus Link created Jan.22 of 2009

Waukesha County put a link into Namus on Aug.24 of this year- https://identifyus.org/cases/7632

I'll send this to Detective ******* as well.

I performed a search of the VICAP database, which includes Missings Person, IF THEY were entered by a Law Enforcement Agency. Not many have been entered prior to 1980. My search so far has been limited to Illinois, Wisconsin and Indiana. I will expand the search outward as time permits."

 

[nerosleuth]

Is there any physical evidence inventory list still in the JD's case file?

I'm hoping that maybe a physical evidence inventory list would have any pictures or notations regarding the kind, size, and brand name of all clothing that were found in the stolen car after the crash?

Was there any kind of luggage found, such as a suitcase or a flight bag?

 

[masnitram]

Is there any physical evidence inventory list still in the JD's case file?

I'm hoping that maybe a physical evidence inventory list would have any pictures or notations regarding the kind, size, and brand name of all clothing that were found in the stolen car after the crash?

Was there any kind of luggage found, such as a suitcase or a flight bag?

Not to my knowledge. When the Waukesha County detective gets back to me I will be sure to ask. From my understanding the report is extremely vague, something that even he is not pleased about.

I've fired off a few emails and the Chicago detectives info to him already and (against my own urges) will give him some time to reply.

I did write down your questions (and have done the same for others in regards to this case) and am keeping the list handy so when I talk to him again I don't forget to ask. I'll keep you posted...

 

[Claudette]

That is amazing that guy took that much time and effort to help you. I am floored - in a good way! How often does THAT ever happen especially from a PD in a large city? AND this type of stuff isn't even his normal day-to-day job!

ON TOP OF THAT he referred to Websleuths as an organization, not as a bunch of weird nosy citizens :crazy: I bet he is one of us

 

[Fairy1]

I'm so happy to see ya'll working on this case! This JD's face has stayed with me since the first time I saw him - long ago. It breaks my heart to think NO ONE has ever looked for him. It's been such a long time.

I spent hours today (at work - shhhhhhh) looking for a possible match and didn't even have time to finish looking!

 

[masnitram]

I'm so happy to see ya'll working on this case! This JD's face has stayed with me since the first time I saw him - long ago. It breaks my heart to think NO ONE has ever looked for him. It's been such a long time.

I spent hours today (at work - shhhhhhh) looking for a possible match and didn't even have time to finish looking!

I first saw the missing persons poster for this JD back in 1983. My kindergarten teacher (R.I.P Mrs. Johnson) had started a "stranger danger" program at my school because the disappearance of Bobby Joe Fritz (link below) was such a startling event in Wisconsin. Bobby was from 50 miles "up the road" from where I grew up and is about the same age as me and my classmates. While it's too late to really find out why, she had a folder on her desk with a bunch of other missing persons fliers, cutouts off the old milk cartons, and this particular JD...with the post-mortem pictures! I was looking through her folder during a "free activity" day where we could do an art project, or listen to music...I wanted to see Bobby Joe so she let me look through the folder and I came across these two pictures ...well...I remember asking her if he "was sleeping"...she never showed the class the photo/report before and from her reaction I don't think she realized it was in there either. She didn't get into great detail other then telling me he is a person who is missed by someone....(I wish I could remember the rest of our talk....)

To make my otherwise long story short ;-)...this guy, whomever he is, was of interest to a (at the time) 65 yr old Kindergarten teacher who also felt that he has to be missed by someone.


http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/101dmwi.html

 

[masnitram]

No updates yet, despite my general impatience I more then likely will wait until shortly after the New Year to at least check in with the detectives.

I have off on Monday December 27th and will be making a trip to Wheaton to have a look around; including a visit to the library. I confirmed with the folks at the Wheaton Public Library that they will be open on December 27th 9:30am until 9pm.

I am also considering stopping into the Gurnee library on the way back to see what info I may be able to dig up there.

My dad and I will be attending the Packers/Giants game on the 26th...so if I'm not too "fried", I plan on getting out there as early as possible.

Unless the weather is awful (it is Wisconsin...anything is possible) and I can't get down there....either way...I'll update you no later then the 28th....