scriptgirl
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I don't think these were boys her age who took her. I think these were older men.
WI WI - Evelyn Hartley, 15, La Crosse, 24 Oct 1953
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oliviad
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OK, I've been lurking on this forum for a really long time, but this is my first ever post! Complete with my many (possibly ludicrous) theories.)
OK.
Evelyn is in the house. The Rasmussens leave and tell her to put the baby down at 7, but not cover her until 7.15. When Mr Hartley gets there, the baby is in bed but uncovered. This, along with the “piercing” screaming at 7.15, suggest this is when she was attacked.
There were pry marks on the bedroom window and on a neighbour’s window, and the only unsecured window that could be opened from the outside was the basement window. The storm window was found pried off and in the yard, so it was definitely opened from the outside that night.
The intruder entered through this window. Evelyn, hearing a sound in the basement, gets up from her homework to investigate. As she goes down into the basement, she sees the intruder and turns to run. The intruder grabs at her, dislodging her shoe, but Evelyn escapes as far as the living room before he catches up with her. Alternatively, she sees him and throws her shoe at him, and then he chases her into the living room.
They fight, as evidenced by the disarray in the living room, the mud smears in the floor, and Evelyn’s broken glasses and one remaining shoe. According to the majority of reports I read, there is still no blood at this point, so Evelyn was not injured in the living room of the house. At some point, Evelyn makes a break for the front door and runs out and into the subdivision.
As a new subdivision, it was sparsely occupied, and many of the residents were at the game. It was late enough on a winter night to be completely dark out. She would have looked around for lights to run towards, rather than fleeing blindly into pitch darkness. If the living rooms of the houses are constructed facing away from the road (assuming they're all like the Rasmussen house) then the over-the-road neighbours Mr Hartley found might not appear to be home, if they're both sat in their living room at the back of the house with only that light on. We can already deduce that the immediate next-door neighbours weren't home, because none of them reported hearing her scream (it was a guy a few houses over, and if anyone closer had been home, you'd better believe the press would have found them and quoted them.) If the houses over the road have their front lights off, the first lights she sees could be in the houses behind her (ie, in the direction of the blood.) As she runs towards these lights, the intruder catches up with her and attacks her, leaving the first large blood stain (which was around 10ft from the basement window.)
This would explain why the screams sounded piercing rather than muffled - surely if she had been screaming in the house/basement it would have sounded muffled to a neighbour? It would also explain the issue of “why in God’s name would anyone push a largish girl out of a basement window??” You wouldn’t. There was blood near the window (near, not by) because she fled in that direction after leaving the house, not because she was pushed out or tried to leave through that window.
OK. The guy is panicking now. He has a bleeding, seriously injured girl on his hands, and no idea what to do with her. He can't leave her out in the open, because someone might find her and she could describe him. He can't put her back in the house, because the door has locked behind them and it would be awkward as heck to try and climb back into the basement with her. So, he needs to put her somewhere, and fast, before someone happens by. Remember, he rides a Whizzer, which is no way to go transporting unconscious girls around. He puts her in the window well of the neighbouring house to conceal her, causing a pool of blood to form, and goes to fetch a buddy or two to help. His buddy says, sure, I’ll bring my car around and park up nearby. If said buddy is coming from a neighbouring town, that would explain why no one ever found a bloody car. Given La Crosse was a college town, I'd say there's a chance the guy could be a student or former student, and they tend to come from surrounding towns, which means any brother or cousin called to help would come from outside La Crosse.
Evelyn is dragged/supported around the backs of the houses, leaving blood smears and prints, to the car, where she is seen with the men by the passer-by who described the car. It wouldn’t necessarily have been obvious that she had blood on her, as it was dark and there were no streetlights in that subdivision at that time. It was all still very new.
I’m not sure that it was planned. It if it was, it went seriously wrong. Panic makes people do stupid things.
Assuming they wanted a girl: The subdivision had issues with prowlers, and the big picture window in the living room where Evelyn was working looked out over an open field behind the house. Apparently, you could see in at night from a distance of around a block away.. Anyone passing by could have seen her. It seems more of an opportunistic thing rather than Evelyn being a chosen target. For one thing, Evelyn wasn’t meant to babysit that night, it was a last-minute replacement thing. She didn’t even want to do it, her mother made her, so it seems unlikely she’d have arranged to meet a boy there and scheduled the job just for that. Anyway, by the size of the steeplejack jacket and from Evelyn’s stats, she was larger than him, and probably larger than he was expecting a teenage babysitter to be. She got away from him, and he panicked.
Assuming they wanted to break in: The subdivision had issues with prowlers. The room Evelyn was sitting in was at the back of the house, not facing the road, so unless she had a ton of other lights on in the house, it might have looked empty to a casual passer-by approaching from the direction of the road. Yes, she was playing the radio, but it would have been turned down low - remember, the baby was sleeping. There was no car in the driveway, and the family were seen to leave as a group a few minutes earlier. You can understand why a potential intruder might think there was no one there, and upon encountering Evelyn, he panicked and lashed out rather than just turning tail and running.
Other factors:
- it was a homecoming game night. Lots of people were in town for the game, and there was probably a lot of drinking. Anyone from the visiting college town could have been wandering through at the time, spotted Evelyn in the house, and taken a fancy to her. That would explain why no one found a bloody car - it was from another town.
- the freight train tracks across the field from the house. Transients hop the trains fairly regularly and use them to get around, and in the past such transients have committed acts of violence (eg Angel Resendiz.) A guy jumps off the train, heads towards town, and he’s cold and hungry and looking for a house to get into to steal some food or money. Or, he spots Evelyn through the window and takes a fancy to her.
- the steeplejack jacket. Steeplejacks tended to be wiry, agile men. If you were a burglary crew and needed a guy to send in through small openings in inconvenient places - likes basement windows - so the guy could go round to the door and let everyone else in, a steeplejack would be a good choice. That assumes an organised burglary gang though, and this crime does not say organised to me.
- the size of the jacket and shoes. Young men can have huge feet and spindly frames, even if they're still growing. If they both belonged to one guy, then that says younger adult male to me, possibly an opportunistic young local or student. Maybe some of the people coming into town for the homecoming game brought an unsavoury relative with them. The crime itself suggests disorganisation and impulsive behaviour too, which would suggest a younger man. I don't think they were criminal geniuses, I think they just got very, very lucky.
- the clothing being abandoned on highways. I remember reading a book by a profiler a while back that mentioned a case where a little kid was killed, and a while after the kid's mitten was mailed to the house. As soon as that happened, the profiler told the investigators to look at the parents, because something like that is designed to misdirect. I've never been to Wisconsin but I've been to Michigan and from what I saw there, there are dozens of rural areas where you could dump 100 jackets and have them never be noticed. Why dump everything along random highways where they'd be found? I don't think Evelyn's family had anything to do with it at all, but I do think someone was maybe trying to lead the heat away from La Crosse.
OK.
Evelyn is in the house. The Rasmussens leave and tell her to put the baby down at 7, but not cover her until 7.15. When Mr Hartley gets there, the baby is in bed but uncovered. This, along with the “piercing” screaming at 7.15, suggest this is when she was attacked.
There were pry marks on the bedroom window and on a neighbour’s window, and the only unsecured window that could be opened from the outside was the basement window. The storm window was found pried off and in the yard, so it was definitely opened from the outside that night.
The intruder entered through this window. Evelyn, hearing a sound in the basement, gets up from her homework to investigate. As she goes down into the basement, she sees the intruder and turns to run. The intruder grabs at her, dislodging her shoe, but Evelyn escapes as far as the living room before he catches up with her. Alternatively, she sees him and throws her shoe at him, and then he chases her into the living room.
They fight, as evidenced by the disarray in the living room, the mud smears in the floor, and Evelyn’s broken glasses and one remaining shoe. According to the majority of reports I read, there is still no blood at this point, so Evelyn was not injured in the living room of the house. At some point, Evelyn makes a break for the front door and runs out and into the subdivision.
As a new subdivision, it was sparsely occupied, and many of the residents were at the game. It was late enough on a winter night to be completely dark out. She would have looked around for lights to run towards, rather than fleeing blindly into pitch darkness. If the living rooms of the houses are constructed facing away from the road (assuming they're all like the Rasmussen house) then the over-the-road neighbours Mr Hartley found might not appear to be home, if they're both sat in their living room at the back of the house with only that light on. We can already deduce that the immediate next-door neighbours weren't home, because none of them reported hearing her scream (it was a guy a few houses over, and if anyone closer had been home, you'd better believe the press would have found them and quoted them.) If the houses over the road have their front lights off, the first lights she sees could be in the houses behind her (ie, in the direction of the blood.) As she runs towards these lights, the intruder catches up with her and attacks her, leaving the first large blood stain (which was around 10ft from the basement window.)
This would explain why the screams sounded piercing rather than muffled - surely if she had been screaming in the house/basement it would have sounded muffled to a neighbour? It would also explain the issue of “why in God’s name would anyone push a largish girl out of a basement window??” You wouldn’t. There was blood near the window (near, not by) because she fled in that direction after leaving the house, not because she was pushed out or tried to leave through that window.
OK. The guy is panicking now. He has a bleeding, seriously injured girl on his hands, and no idea what to do with her. He can't leave her out in the open, because someone might find her and she could describe him. He can't put her back in the house, because the door has locked behind them and it would be awkward as heck to try and climb back into the basement with her. So, he needs to put her somewhere, and fast, before someone happens by. Remember, he rides a Whizzer, which is no way to go transporting unconscious girls around. He puts her in the window well of the neighbouring house to conceal her, causing a pool of blood to form, and goes to fetch a buddy or two to help. His buddy says, sure, I’ll bring my car around and park up nearby. If said buddy is coming from a neighbouring town, that would explain why no one ever found a bloody car. Given La Crosse was a college town, I'd say there's a chance the guy could be a student or former student, and they tend to come from surrounding towns, which means any brother or cousin called to help would come from outside La Crosse.
Evelyn is dragged/supported around the backs of the houses, leaving blood smears and prints, to the car, where she is seen with the men by the passer-by who described the car. It wouldn’t necessarily have been obvious that she had blood on her, as it was dark and there were no streetlights in that subdivision at that time. It was all still very new.
I’m not sure that it was planned. It if it was, it went seriously wrong. Panic makes people do stupid things.
Assuming they wanted a girl: The subdivision had issues with prowlers, and the big picture window in the living room where Evelyn was working looked out over an open field behind the house. Apparently, you could see in at night from a distance of around a block away.. Anyone passing by could have seen her. It seems more of an opportunistic thing rather than Evelyn being a chosen target. For one thing, Evelyn wasn’t meant to babysit that night, it was a last-minute replacement thing. She didn’t even want to do it, her mother made her, so it seems unlikely she’d have arranged to meet a boy there and scheduled the job just for that. Anyway, by the size of the steeplejack jacket and from Evelyn’s stats, she was larger than him, and probably larger than he was expecting a teenage babysitter to be. She got away from him, and he panicked.
Assuming they wanted to break in: The subdivision had issues with prowlers. The room Evelyn was sitting in was at the back of the house, not facing the road, so unless she had a ton of other lights on in the house, it might have looked empty to a casual passer-by approaching from the direction of the road. Yes, she was playing the radio, but it would have been turned down low - remember, the baby was sleeping. There was no car in the driveway, and the family were seen to leave as a group a few minutes earlier. You can understand why a potential intruder might think there was no one there, and upon encountering Evelyn, he panicked and lashed out rather than just turning tail and running.
Other factors:
- it was a homecoming game night. Lots of people were in town for the game, and there was probably a lot of drinking. Anyone from the visiting college town could have been wandering through at the time, spotted Evelyn in the house, and taken a fancy to her. That would explain why no one found a bloody car - it was from another town.
- the freight train tracks across the field from the house. Transients hop the trains fairly regularly and use them to get around, and in the past such transients have committed acts of violence (eg Angel Resendiz.) A guy jumps off the train, heads towards town, and he’s cold and hungry and looking for a house to get into to steal some food or money. Or, he spots Evelyn through the window and takes a fancy to her.
- the steeplejack jacket. Steeplejacks tended to be wiry, agile men. If you were a burglary crew and needed a guy to send in through small openings in inconvenient places - likes basement windows - so the guy could go round to the door and let everyone else in, a steeplejack would be a good choice. That assumes an organised burglary gang though, and this crime does not say organised to me.
- the size of the jacket and shoes. Young men can have huge feet and spindly frames, even if they're still growing. If they both belonged to one guy, then that says younger adult male to me, possibly an opportunistic young local or student. Maybe some of the people coming into town for the homecoming game brought an unsavoury relative with them. The crime itself suggests disorganisation and impulsive behaviour too, which would suggest a younger man. I don't think they were criminal geniuses, I think they just got very, very lucky.
- the clothing being abandoned on highways. I remember reading a book by a profiler a while back that mentioned a case where a little kid was killed, and a while after the kid's mitten was mailed to the house. As soon as that happened, the profiler told the investigators to look at the parents, because something like that is designed to misdirect. I've never been to Wisconsin but I've been to Michigan and from what I saw there, there are dozens of rural areas where you could dump 100 jackets and have them never be noticed. Why dump everything along random highways where they'd be found? I don't think Evelyn's family had anything to do with it at all, but I do think someone was maybe trying to lead the heat away from La Crosse.
oliviad
New Member
Thank you!
This is such an interesting case. There's another interesting disappearance (well, two) from a playground five blocks from my current apartment (just moved to NY from Ireland) so maybe I'll see if I can find a thread on that too.
GaPeachMom
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WS virgin here but im going to suggest something i havent seen suggested. Sooooooo far from the normal theories but hear me out.
So everyone seems to agree the perp was a moroon, it was ill planned and he/they only managed to escape capture my sheer luck. What if they were inexperienced, say immature, YOUNG. So Evie gets roped into babysitting at the last minute. Either 2 days before or immediately before (thats a little fuzzy). But she should have been at the game. So say shes getting ready for the big game, gonna sit with friends, party afterwards, whatever. Gets a call at 6 that her dads friend needs a sitter. Maybe she does it bc hes a friend of her dad, maybe they offer to pay more. Either way she reluctantly agrees. But she doesnt leave then because hes coming to get her. So she calls her friend and complains. We all know how close 15 year old girls can be. Friend is bummed too.
Friend either tells others or is in on it herself but they decide to play a joke on Evie. After all she said she'd fight if someone tried to kidnap a child she was watching. Maybe the friend(s) wanted to see if that was true. Call her bluff. Totally not in a mean way at all and no malice intended.
I babysat at 15(14, 13, 12 even) and the parents would regularly come pick me up and take me home afterwards. And even in the nicest neighborhoods, with security systems, guard dogs, privacy fences(keep in mind this wasnt that long ago)I would close the curtains/blinds, turn on all the lights and put the tv on low after the kids were in bed. Just loud enough for background noise but quiet enough that i could listen out beacuse I was young and it was just a little scary. So let's say Evie does this. Lights on in LR, radio on low. Then she hears a noise.
Maybe the friend(s) wore a ski mask, got an older sibling to "break in", whatever she didnt recognize the person at first. She DOES fight. Throws a shoe, breaks her glasses, then runs for an exit.
Ok so this part is complete conjecture. The window looks like the old timey basement ones we had in our vacation home my grandfather built. instead of raising up on a track they opened inward at an angle. Hinged at the top. So say for whatever reason Evie tries to go out that window. And the window closes. Or maybe she just hits her head. But its an accident. Maybe she startles someone else outside and they hit her on reflex. Shes hurt and bleeding. Everyone is freaking out. Maybe the screams werent her, maybe they were a friend. Like an "oh, **** what did we do? This was supposed to be a joke?!?!?" imagine a teenage girl hyperventilating. Then someone covers her mouth and tells her to shut up. (mid scream. The friend not Evie) Evie either manages to crawl or is moved to the neighbors window well where she lays, bleeding while someone goes and grabs the car. Now kids dont think. No one would have stopped to consider the baby inside, alone(I'm still confused how her dad left the baby alone when he went to the neighbor's...). Maybe they were going to try to take her to help. To a hospital, or doctor. But she's too hurt. She doesnt make it. They toss out various pieces of clothing, maybe they were old rags that they used to clean up the mess in the car, something they picked up at a thrift shop type place for the joke as a disguise, a sibling or parents' old clothing, from the car. Maybe they toss her underwear out to make people think it was sexually motivated, maybe those were not even hers? They somehow dispose of the body, clean up and SWEAR to never speak of the incident again. they get home late but its homecoming and the parents assume they were at the game or out.
Totally explains why theres just a struggle inside the house, no blood, they never meant to injure her.
In a few months or a year whoever was involved heads off to college. They never speak of the incident to anyone.
So everyone seems to agree the perp was a moroon, it was ill planned and he/they only managed to escape capture my sheer luck. What if they were inexperienced, say immature, YOUNG. So Evie gets roped into babysitting at the last minute. Either 2 days before or immediately before (thats a little fuzzy). But she should have been at the game. So say shes getting ready for the big game, gonna sit with friends, party afterwards, whatever. Gets a call at 6 that her dads friend needs a sitter. Maybe she does it bc hes a friend of her dad, maybe they offer to pay more. Either way she reluctantly agrees. But she doesnt leave then because hes coming to get her. So she calls her friend and complains. We all know how close 15 year old girls can be. Friend is bummed too.
Friend either tells others or is in on it herself but they decide to play a joke on Evie. After all she said she'd fight if someone tried to kidnap a child she was watching. Maybe the friend(s) wanted to see if that was true. Call her bluff. Totally not in a mean way at all and no malice intended.
I babysat at 15(14, 13, 12 even) and the parents would regularly come pick me up and take me home afterwards. And even in the nicest neighborhoods, with security systems, guard dogs, privacy fences(keep in mind this wasnt that long ago)I would close the curtains/blinds, turn on all the lights and put the tv on low after the kids were in bed. Just loud enough for background noise but quiet enough that i could listen out beacuse I was young and it was just a little scary. So let's say Evie does this. Lights on in LR, radio on low. Then she hears a noise.
Maybe the friend(s) wore a ski mask, got an older sibling to "break in", whatever she didnt recognize the person at first. She DOES fight. Throws a shoe, breaks her glasses, then runs for an exit.
Ok so this part is complete conjecture. The window looks like the old timey basement ones we had in our vacation home my grandfather built. instead of raising up on a track they opened inward at an angle. Hinged at the top. So say for whatever reason Evie tries to go out that window. And the window closes. Or maybe she just hits her head. But its an accident. Maybe she startles someone else outside and they hit her on reflex. Shes hurt and bleeding. Everyone is freaking out. Maybe the screams werent her, maybe they were a friend. Like an "oh, **** what did we do? This was supposed to be a joke?!?!?" imagine a teenage girl hyperventilating. Then someone covers her mouth and tells her to shut up. (mid scream. The friend not Evie) Evie either manages to crawl or is moved to the neighbors window well where she lays, bleeding while someone goes and grabs the car. Now kids dont think. No one would have stopped to consider the baby inside, alone(I'm still confused how her dad left the baby alone when he went to the neighbor's...). Maybe they were going to try to take her to help. To a hospital, or doctor. But she's too hurt. She doesnt make it. They toss out various pieces of clothing, maybe they were old rags that they used to clean up the mess in the car, something they picked up at a thrift shop type place for the joke as a disguise, a sibling or parents' old clothing, from the car. Maybe they toss her underwear out to make people think it was sexually motivated, maybe those were not even hers? They somehow dispose of the body, clean up and SWEAR to never speak of the incident again. they get home late but its homecoming and the parents assume they were at the game or out.
Totally explains why theres just a struggle inside the house, no blood, they never meant to injure her.
In a few months or a year whoever was involved heads off to college. They never speak of the incident to anyone.
Shamrocker99
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interesting theory GaPeachMom! I believe anything is plausible at this point! Welcome to WS!!
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Molly's Mom
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I need to read up on this case. All these theories have intrigued me.
colette
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I agree there have been some great posts/theories that really make you wonder.
SheWhoMustNotBeNamed
Former Member
One of those "click-bait" articles, but at least it's about something worthwhile.
9 real-life horror stories of people who disappeared and were never found
[h=3]6) Evelyn Hartley (Wisconsin, 1953)[/h] The disappearance of Evelyn Hartley is straight out of a horror movie. The teenager was babysitting one evening when she didn't call to check in with her parents at the appointed time. Her father went to check on her and found a completely locked house with the lights and radio still on — and no Evelyn inside. Signs of a struggle and forced entry led to a desperate search for the girl, but she was never found. Pools of blood that may have belonged to Evelyn, as well as eyewitness accounts of a girl who might have been her, make this story all the more mysterious.
http://www.vox.com/2014/10/31/7135439/real-life-horror-stories-disappearances
9 real-life horror stories of people who disappeared and were never found
[h=3]6) Evelyn Hartley (Wisconsin, 1953)[/h] The disappearance of Evelyn Hartley is straight out of a horror movie. The teenager was babysitting one evening when she didn't call to check in with her parents at the appointed time. Her father went to check on her and found a completely locked house with the lights and radio still on — and no Evelyn inside. Signs of a struggle and forced entry led to a desperate search for the girl, but she was never found. Pools of blood that may have belonged to Evelyn, as well as eyewitness accounts of a girl who might have been her, make this story all the more mysterious.
http://www.vox.com/2014/10/31/7135439/real-life-horror-stories-disappearances
Thatjessgirl
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Okay I've only read up to page 6 and really need to head to bed since it suddenly became 3am. These are just my opinions from reading the first 6 pages and hopefully when I catch up a lot of my questions may go away!
The first thing that really stuck out to me is that her dad went through the open window, contaminated the crime scene, but didn't want to use the phone for fear of messing up possible finger prints. I know the father volunteered almost immediately to take a lie detector test, but over the years we have learned that there are ways to beat those tests. I really can't get over the fact that he contaminated the entrance to the home. It also doesn't sit right with me that the siblings refused to give DNA. Could that be a possible inclination that her father was involved?
The second thing that bothered me, and was mentioned multiple times in the first 6 pages, was that they are saying that she was taken out of the basement window. There is the possibility that she was never in the basement and was actually taken out either the front of back door. She could have heard a noise, opened the basement door, and threw her shoe down. I know when I hear a noise I grab the first thing that is closest to me. While it may not do damage it could possibly scare whoever/whatever is causing the noise. I'm seriously having a hard time believing that they were able to push, a presumably, unconscious, 5'7 125lb girl out of a 14 inch window. Especially since the way the windows were described were that they had the indents in them to step down in. Just from personal experience I know when I was 16 and dumb, I couldn't fit through a 14 inch window at 5'7. I haven't seen pictures of the window so I can't exactly say but ours we're probably 2 feet down from the little dug out area around the window. (again its 3am and i can't think of the word). My theory is they went out the front of back door and it was self locking. (I've also locked myself out numerous times until we got rid of that door knob..)
Since there was so much blood evidence, ex; bloody clothing, multiple puddles of blood, and bloody hand prints, how have they not been DNA tested. Assuming from what I read so far that the case is a very harsh reminder of a crime committed in a small town you'd think people would be pushing for a DNA test now that its possible. I was wondering if they even have any of the evidence left of the blood. I know the jean jacket was "traveled" around the towns and asked if anyone recognized it.. I'm assuming that's out of the option because of contamination. It sounds like she put up one hell of a fight so she could have injured her abductors and their blood could be on any of the surfaces.
I'd also like to point out that I really don't believe it was a burglary. If it was then they would have knocked her out and left her there.. I can't see any plausible reason to take a body of an unconscious teen with them and not continue the task they came for. I really believe whoever came in that house was there to kidnap Evelyn, or the babysitter that was supposed to be there. There are so many options on the reason why they took her, rape, ransom, or payback. I believe, I could have misread, that her father is a professor at the school that was playing the homecoming game. They could have went to kidnap her as a prank. Assuming her father was a professor he had to have made a decent living, so it could have easily been a ransom kidnapping gone wrong. No one expects the quiet, straight a student, to find back. The last reason I can think of, and the most realistic, is the fact that the abductors were out looking for trouble and saw Evelyn arrive at the house and the parents leave. There was very little trees and shrubs, as it was a new neighborhood. That being said it could be easy to see inside house from a bit of a distance.
In addition to my prior statements I was thinking it could be a construction worker. My reasoning is because the neighborhood is newly built. Assuming that construction is the same way today as it was back then it would be common to see construction workers in the area. They can build multiple houses at once and as soon as they are finished someone moves in. Construction workers would still be in the area and could have also still been putting "finishing" touches on the houses. Something to support this theory is the abductors cut through back yards to get to their car. Not many people would know how the cut throughs work, where it would drop them off, unless they had inside details of the area that was recently built. Also the denim jacket that was found with blood on it was also said to have paint on it. The people she was babysitting for were painting their basement, could they have hired a painter. She could have easily let someone in saying they "forgot" something in the basement they we're painting. From what I hear from my aunts and uncles the 50's we're a very friendly time.. people trusted anything anyone said. He could have left the window unlocked prior in the day OR he could have came back and unlocked it so he could get in later.
I was also wondering if the regular babysitter was ever questioned? Maybe she had someone come over regularly and forgot to tell them she cancelled and Evelyn was surprised and fought back against them. She also could have been the target and they were surprised that Evelyn was there which threw them off guard. Also were there door to door sales men back then? Could the person been one of those annoyingly persuasive sales men that basically force their way into your home.
I also so a point someone brought up about matching the shoes to someone owning a whizzer bike. On the charley project website for Evelyn it was stated the the shoes that were worn were to small for the person wearing them. Could they be donated shoes. Did they have church donations, good will, thrift stores back then? That could explain why the shoes and jacket didn't "match" the size of the person. Also it was stated that there was a town not to far away that was an African American town. I read on the charley project page that a hat that was found had hair in it believed to be an African American.. when the jacket was "toured" through towns would this have been a town that it was brought to? I'm assuming that there was still some pretty tough racial divides back then.
There were two points brought up in the earlier pages saying that the FBI wasn't brought in because they didn't believe it was a kidnapping. At this point a 15 year old teenager was missing, a lot of blood was found at the scene, and bloody clothes were found strewn down a road. Everything points to a kidnapping in my opinion. Then later on, 5th or 6th page, it was mentioned that the FBI refused to be brought in because there was no evidence she was brought past state lines. As far as I know, the FBI can be brought in if the local police ask for help? I don't know if this law changed in recent times.
Evelyn was presumably very smart, straight a's and brought her text books to study on a night she could have easily been doing something "better." With that being said I wonder if she was semi-conscious when they were taking her by the neighbors garage and she was purposely dragging her hand along the garage to let LE know that she was there.. or give signs that something was amiss. She could have knew that she was unable to overpower the abductors, and gave in for fear of being killed. Either way the amount of blood that was around the scene it doesn't look very promising that she's alive.
Everything in here is just from the first 6 pages. Hopefully I'll catch up soon and have more answers to my questions! I really feel like this case could have, and should have, been solved back then.
Sorry for the long post!
The first thing that really stuck out to me is that her dad went through the open window, contaminated the crime scene, but didn't want to use the phone for fear of messing up possible finger prints. I know the father volunteered almost immediately to take a lie detector test, but over the years we have learned that there are ways to beat those tests. I really can't get over the fact that he contaminated the entrance to the home. It also doesn't sit right with me that the siblings refused to give DNA. Could that be a possible inclination that her father was involved?
The second thing that bothered me, and was mentioned multiple times in the first 6 pages, was that they are saying that she was taken out of the basement window. There is the possibility that she was never in the basement and was actually taken out either the front of back door. She could have heard a noise, opened the basement door, and threw her shoe down. I know when I hear a noise I grab the first thing that is closest to me. While it may not do damage it could possibly scare whoever/whatever is causing the noise. I'm seriously having a hard time believing that they were able to push, a presumably, unconscious, 5'7 125lb girl out of a 14 inch window. Especially since the way the windows were described were that they had the indents in them to step down in. Just from personal experience I know when I was 16 and dumb, I couldn't fit through a 14 inch window at 5'7. I haven't seen pictures of the window so I can't exactly say but ours we're probably 2 feet down from the little dug out area around the window. (again its 3am and i can't think of the word). My theory is they went out the front of back door and it was self locking. (I've also locked myself out numerous times until we got rid of that door knob..)
Since there was so much blood evidence, ex; bloody clothing, multiple puddles of blood, and bloody hand prints, how have they not been DNA tested. Assuming from what I read so far that the case is a very harsh reminder of a crime committed in a small town you'd think people would be pushing for a DNA test now that its possible. I was wondering if they even have any of the evidence left of the blood. I know the jean jacket was "traveled" around the towns and asked if anyone recognized it.. I'm assuming that's out of the option because of contamination. It sounds like she put up one hell of a fight so she could have injured her abductors and their blood could be on any of the surfaces.
I'd also like to point out that I really don't believe it was a burglary. If it was then they would have knocked her out and left her there.. I can't see any plausible reason to take a body of an unconscious teen with them and not continue the task they came for. I really believe whoever came in that house was there to kidnap Evelyn, or the babysitter that was supposed to be there. There are so many options on the reason why they took her, rape, ransom, or payback. I believe, I could have misread, that her father is a professor at the school that was playing the homecoming game. They could have went to kidnap her as a prank. Assuming her father was a professor he had to have made a decent living, so it could have easily been a ransom kidnapping gone wrong. No one expects the quiet, straight a student, to find back. The last reason I can think of, and the most realistic, is the fact that the abductors were out looking for trouble and saw Evelyn arrive at the house and the parents leave. There was very little trees and shrubs, as it was a new neighborhood. That being said it could be easy to see inside house from a bit of a distance.
In addition to my prior statements I was thinking it could be a construction worker. My reasoning is because the neighborhood is newly built. Assuming that construction is the same way today as it was back then it would be common to see construction workers in the area. They can build multiple houses at once and as soon as they are finished someone moves in. Construction workers would still be in the area and could have also still been putting "finishing" touches on the houses. Something to support this theory is the abductors cut through back yards to get to their car. Not many people would know how the cut throughs work, where it would drop them off, unless they had inside details of the area that was recently built. Also the denim jacket that was found with blood on it was also said to have paint on it. The people she was babysitting for were painting their basement, could they have hired a painter. She could have easily let someone in saying they "forgot" something in the basement they we're painting. From what I hear from my aunts and uncles the 50's we're a very friendly time.. people trusted anything anyone said. He could have left the window unlocked prior in the day OR he could have came back and unlocked it so he could get in later.
I was also wondering if the regular babysitter was ever questioned? Maybe she had someone come over regularly and forgot to tell them she cancelled and Evelyn was surprised and fought back against them. She also could have been the target and they were surprised that Evelyn was there which threw them off guard. Also were there door to door sales men back then? Could the person been one of those annoyingly persuasive sales men that basically force their way into your home.
I also so a point someone brought up about matching the shoes to someone owning a whizzer bike. On the charley project website for Evelyn it was stated the the shoes that were worn were to small for the person wearing them. Could they be donated shoes. Did they have church donations, good will, thrift stores back then? That could explain why the shoes and jacket didn't "match" the size of the person. Also it was stated that there was a town not to far away that was an African American town. I read on the charley project page that a hat that was found had hair in it believed to be an African American.. when the jacket was "toured" through towns would this have been a town that it was brought to? I'm assuming that there was still some pretty tough racial divides back then.
There were two points brought up in the earlier pages saying that the FBI wasn't brought in because they didn't believe it was a kidnapping. At this point a 15 year old teenager was missing, a lot of blood was found at the scene, and bloody clothes were found strewn down a road. Everything points to a kidnapping in my opinion. Then later on, 5th or 6th page, it was mentioned that the FBI refused to be brought in because there was no evidence she was brought past state lines. As far as I know, the FBI can be brought in if the local police ask for help? I don't know if this law changed in recent times.
Evelyn was presumably very smart, straight a's and brought her text books to study on a night she could have easily been doing something "better." With that being said I wonder if she was semi-conscious when they were taking her by the neighbors garage and she was purposely dragging her hand along the garage to let LE know that she was there.. or give signs that something was amiss. She could have knew that she was unable to overpower the abductors, and gave in for fear of being killed. Either way the amount of blood that was around the scene it doesn't look very promising that she's alive.
Everything in here is just from the first 6 pages. Hopefully I'll catch up soon and have more answers to my questions! I really feel like this case could have, and should have, been solved back then.
Sorry for the long post!
annegrete
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Snipped and reddened by me. Great questions, Thatjessgirl and certainly the same ones I've had.
I so hate to think the father had something to do with it, being he was a professor and all, but I do wonder about his own motives. Maybe he was in on some sort of harmless fraternity prank- maybe he heard that they were planning this prank and thought Evelyn would get a kick out of it. Then again, would he be the type of leave the two-year old baby alone after Evelyn was removed? In the context of a prank gone correctly, Evelyn would be unharmed, but the baby would be left alone. Unless, the prank was going to take place at the house- maybe a scavenger hunt and the pranksters were going to take something of Evelyn's (i.e. textbook) to show they were there, and something went wrong?
I also want to know who the original babysitter was. Surely someone out there knows who it was supposed to be. Has anyone contacted Evelyn's friends? Or maybe former students from the college who knew Prof Hartley and/or Prof Rasmussen?
STANDREID
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Yes, I would think the original babysitter would have been named in newspaper articles but I guess not. I see no logical reason to keep her identity secret. Murder witnesses are named in the papers all the time and she wasn't even that. Certainly a lot of people would have known who she was either directly or through the grapevine. Are the police files open? She would certainly be named in there.
Thatjessgirl
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I’m sorry if this is a huge ramble fest! I have so many ideas and theories going through my head that I just want to get all of them out. I’d just like to also add, that after this case I’m pretty sure my search history is horrible.
Okay so I’ve completely finished reading the whole thread and I’ve come up with a rather long post of things that bothered me or theories. I’m going to watch the youtube videos and do some research on my own after this. (Most of the articles I tried to read on this thread gave me the 404 error wahh!)
So with all the blood that was presumably lost by Evie in the grass, by the house, possibly in the house, along the neighbors garage, wouldn’t the person(s) who Mr. X saw have blood on them? Same with Evie I’d assume she’d have blood on her and with that much blood it’d be noticeable. I really am starting to discount Mr.X’s account of seeing Evie, or it could be attributed to someone who actually was drunk and helping a friend out. Even in complete dark with headlights you’d be able to see a DARK stain on someone. It bothers me that that wasn’t mentioned so I don’t even take Mr. X’s account into consideration. I think it was someone who was hoping to do good and gave information that doesn’t attribute to this case.
I still am really concerned that the other babysitter wasn’t interviewed, questioned, or given a lie detector test. There isn’t much known about her and she could have easily been a promiscuous teenager who hung around bad company. If she told the people she hung out with that she was babysitting at the professors house they could have shown up to ambush her. I really do think the babysitter that cancelled really should have been talked to and that she could have given a lot of clues. Its one of the many things in this case that frustrate me. With that being said it also makes me wonder if the babysitter and Evie got along? I assume bullying wasn’t a known thing back then but could Evie had been targeted by the babysitter, and friends, because she was intelligent, pretty, and from all accounts not involved in any drama or bad things. If she didn’t get along with someone at school (we ALL know how catty girls are) it could be easy that another girl knew she was babysitting and told her boyfriend to go “scare” Evie and it ended up being much worse than planned.
I also would love to know if they tested the blood on the clothing from the box at the gas station. It seems kind of odd that someone, that just essentially murdered someone, would drive to a gas station and change their clothes and leave them there. I may just be thinking about the times now and cameras being EVERYWHERE. It also seems kind of odd to me that someone would dispose of clothing at a gas station when other clothing was thrown along a country road.. why wouldn’t they just do the same with the rest of their clothing? In my opinion the man dropping the clothes in a box could have been a hunter, could have disposed of the clothes in a much better way, and just isn’t logical. It sounds like the town nearby was rather rural which could explain hunters discarding of clothes, which to me makes more sense. Plus I’ve seen my friends come back after gutting a dear and it wasn’t exactly the prettiest site. Assuming they have those clothes from the box they can easily test them now, and I have a STRONG feeling it would be animal blood.
Punklove (post 256) cites an article saying there was a large pool of blood found on a highway 12 miles south of where the bra and panties were found. I wonder, and would like to know, how well the area of the articles of clothing was searched? I’ve read in 27 pages that the whole town of LaCrosse was searched. In that case this very well could be in LaFarge. It sounds like not much of anything in LaFarge was searched or followed through with. I’d assume if searches were conducted around the articles of clothing found they would have found all of them at once. From what I’ve read it seems to be that they were found multiple days apart. The other option is that the area WAS indeed searched but the abductor(s) were slowly getting rid of the evidence as to not cause a huge search of the area where her body may have been. They also could have thrown the clothing in the area opposite of where they were traveling to. With all that being said if there was a large pool of blood 12 miles south of that area I seriously hope the, heavily wooded area I assume, was searched thoroughly. Her body could have been there. That’s another thing that irritates me.
Another theory I was pondering throughout reading the thread was the fact that the basement window could have been an afterthought. She could have answered the door for a number of reasons which I will mention below. The people that came in the front door could have expected her to give in easily and instead she gave up a fight. Which, in return, resulted in the disturbances in the living room and basement. So my question is.. could the basement window have been opened AFTER the incident in the upstairs happened to deter police from thinking it was a friend, a sales person, or a neighbor.
I know everyone keeps focusing on the fact that so many people were given a lie detector, up to 2,000 males, but we’ve learned through recent cases that lie detectors can be beaten. They aren’t a form of evidence accepted in a trial now. Most police will only give a lie detector if a) you ask for one or b) they know you did the crime and convince you to confess because of a lack in evidence. The lie detector was invented in 1921. With that being said in 1923 the DC Circuit court started stating that lie detector tests weren’t reliable! (thank you google!) but it was still used as a form of testing. Many people have since noticed that there are ways of beating a polygraph test. I also wonder what questions were asked, was everyone asked the same questions, were these tests done consecutively throughout the day. If they were the same questions, which I assume they were, I’m sure people talked about the questions asked which gives time for the abductor(s) to prepare his/her answer. In addition to that I assume it took longer than a day to test 2,000+ people. To beat a lie detector test all you need is to have a slow, calm, heart rate during the questioning. Many people have learned how to slow and quicken their heart rates to beat these tests. I also wonder if they used control questions back then, like they do now?
Punklove made a very good point (post 267). The window was so small that a teenage girl could have went in through it. One of Evies friends could have easily climbed into the window, scared her, then let another person in the front of back door. With that being said it makes much more sense that a teenage girl went through the window, if anyone even did. I (referring back to my old post) was about the same size as Evie at 16 (give or take a few pounds) and had the same style windows. I was young, dumb, and 16, and attempted to sneak out of the house. I quickly gave up and went out another window upstairs because of the angle that you have to come out of the window it hurts and it’s just hard in general. I highly doubt anyone would be able to force her out a window, but I do believe that a small teenage girl could fit into the window. I know a friend of mine used to sneak into her house through the basement windows. Was there any other females questioned at all?
I also would like to know the distance from the house that heard her screams to the house where she was at. This may already be mentioned and I missed it. In addition to that I wonder if his house is anywhere near where the dogs lost the scent of Evie? Did he have any children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews? Could they have been staying with him and become interested in Evie? I think this case frustrates me so much because of how the investigation was conducted. A lot of perspectives weren’t “looked” at in the way they would be now. A lot of evidence was contaminated. I seriously think this case should have been solved YEARS ago!
Another thing I was thinking about while reading all the posts is the fact that the neighbor could have thought the screams were domestic. From my understanding domestic violence was kind of expected back then. Your job as a man was to work, take care of your family, and keep your woman in check. No one talked about domestic violence, if that was even a term, back then. Still to this day domestic violence isn’t talked about as much as it should be. That’s another reason why the jacket wouldn’t have been spoken for. Most men had complete control over their wives. If they didn’t bring the paper home, their wives didn’t see it. They could control who their wives talked to, where they went, and when they went. It was common. My grandmother, up to her passing away, was still very loyal to my grandfather. She ASKED him if it was okay to go to the hospital. It was a different time back then and people were different. Your life was private and your personal situations were private. It was rare to have an independent woman married to an independent man. Another point I’d like to point out, is if the two people who are “drunks, did murder her and came home with a missing jacket and shoes the wife may know they are drunks and losing clothing was a common thing. I know when I was 20-21 I lost a lot of things and shoes were the number one things, but then again I wore heels pretty often. The wife may have known about the jacket and not spoken up for fear of a backlash if she was wrong.
I still feel strongly that the father has some connections to the case. I know everyone was so adamant that he wasn’t involved, that he was a concerned father, and that he just did what he thought was right. I keep going back to the fact that he entered through the same window that “supposedly” the people who took his daughter went through.. that he contaminated that evidence but walked across the street to use the phone. He LEFT the child in the house, the house that has numerous signs of disturbances. The fact that many accounts, from what little I’ve read on here, have said that he was a very strict father. It was his way or noway. It kills me to know that it took 39 minutes before he called 911 and that he thought the blood pools was menstrual blood. It KILLS me that her siblings won’t give DNA. I couldn’t imagine my sister going missing, and we haven’t talked since I was 8 (I’m 23 now), not giving DNA in hopes to identify or find her. I completely understand the whole “the past is in the past and they moved on” but still.. if you had the option of putting your DNA in a system that could possibly put your sister to rest I don’t see why that would be an issue? How do you get over the fact that your sister is missing, your flesh and blood, was possibly murdered? GRRRRR! Did Evies siblings have children? Could there be a possibility to get DNA from them? Assuming their children are older and grew up in this “generation” they’d be more inclined to give DNA. I wonder how they don’t want to know what happened to their sister, aunt, daughter, cousin. I could be wrong, but it seems like a lot of familial DNA are closing cashes now. That’s another thing that makes me believe the father may have had something to do with it.. if the children give DNA it would also help identify any other blood as the fathers. They may not want to tarnish their fathers reputation since he’s unable to defend himself anym ore. Thirty-nine minutes to call 911 though.
From everything that I’ve read I’ve slowly discounted Gein from having any connection to this crime. Even with the mentions of the vulva’s being found in his home he wasn’t interested in younger women. With the mention of the vulvas being found couldn’t they compare Evies DNA they have from her hairbrush, rollers, menstrual pads? Killing a younger girl wouldn’t do anything for him, or for his goal, to make a human woman’s skin suit. (That’s still so disgusting to me!) I know a lot of states are backlogged on forensic cases. Most rape cases are still not imported instantly, which is appalling.
After all this time and no body being found has anyone ever suggested or looked into the houses that were made soon after? What I’m getting at, assuming most, if all these houses has basements, someone would have to dig them. She was taken on a Saturday night. They could have easily dug a hole in an already dug basement and Monday morning she was paved over. It’s a thought that I keep pondering and it bothers me thinking that she could have been under someone’s house all these years and no one thought to look.
I keep going over the fact that her clothes weren’t found but her undergarments were. As many people have mentioned, they could have been given to a spouse or daughter. Going with the theory that someone broke in to rape her, she could have been undressed in the house and ran outside to escape. The person inside could have “cleaned” up the area they were in just to make sure nothing was left behind. With that being said the second person would have caught her outside and if she struggled could have hit her to subdue her.
With the above theory (which is also mentioned on page 20) could they have ran out of time to finish the rape? What time did the game begin and end? We’re the family she was babysitting for late for the game? From everything I’ve read at this point I’ve concluded that the family left between 6:30-6:45. It sounds like the father called the cops at 9:46pm and from news articles (which we all know could be untrue) people were already home/started arriving home. Does anyone know the outcome of the game? I know it probably doesn’t have much baring on the case but thinking about it, (as was mentioned throughout the thread), I wonder if it could have been a prank from the rival team. If they lost they may have gotten angered and killed her. At the same time I’m thinking about the current times where we all have cellphones so they would have trouble getting the information as instantly as we have the privilege of. That point may not be anything but I’m going to leave it in as just a theory.
I also ponder the fact that this is a SMALL town from what I’ve learned. Assuming that this area was like my families area (we grew up in PA) they NEVER locked their doors. In fact my uncle JUST started locking his door last year after a break in. My parents never had keys to their house but always knew the door would be unlocked. Could the doors have been unlocked and the abductor(s) locked them to make it look like she was secure, or hold of cops for a bit?
Going with the theory about her having a boy come over could easily explain away the reasoning of a car circling the block. They could have been waiting for the family to leave before he came in. I’d assume in the 1950’s it was a strict “no boys allowed” atmosphere. In the aspect that no girl should be hanging out with a boy unsupervised, and certainly not while babysitting a child. I could be wrong but the values back then were WAY more traditional than they are now.
I’d also like to point out that many times its been mentioned by Joellegirl that the front door was facing the backyard. So technically if they took her out of the front door it wouldn’t be facing the street. It would have been a bit more cover for them.
Another point that’s reoccurring is that the clothing was strewn down the road in an amateur way. Back then DNA testing wasn’t as advanced as it is today. The abductor(s) could have thrown those things down the road because why would they bring them home or keep them on them? They could have driven in a different direction then the way they live to throw the trail off. With that being said I don’t think these people were the “smartest” so it very well could be that they threw them along the road in the direction they were going. I really don’t think the questioning of where the menstrual pad could be since it wasn’t found with her panties is not anything to be concerned with. My aunt still, to this day, uses the clips that hold the pad on. I don’t know why. Anyway she has said that without panties it wouldn’t stay in place at all. (She drives me a bit nuts)
Could Evie have been left in the basement window alcove, (why can’t I think of the word for it!) loosing blood, and somehow came to? There have been stranger stories of someone basically knocking on deaths door somehow getting to someone’s house for help, a phone call, or just for easier discovery. There’s always that adrenaline rush when you get seriously hurt, and again stranger things have been done. She could have been RUNNING zig zag, assuming shes running straight, towards a light. The light may have been the persons car she was supposed to be taken to and that’s why they lost her scent. At this point she’d be dizzy, distraught, and still losing blood. Adrenaline is an amazing thing though.
I’m ending this now, as again, I ended up staying up until 2am reading up on this case. I still have a bunch of points and things I learned from the research I was doing that I will hopefully be able to post tomorrow.
Okay so I’ve completely finished reading the whole thread and I’ve come up with a rather long post of things that bothered me or theories. I’m going to watch the youtube videos and do some research on my own after this. (Most of the articles I tried to read on this thread gave me the 404 error wahh!)
So with all the blood that was presumably lost by Evie in the grass, by the house, possibly in the house, along the neighbors garage, wouldn’t the person(s) who Mr. X saw have blood on them? Same with Evie I’d assume she’d have blood on her and with that much blood it’d be noticeable. I really am starting to discount Mr.X’s account of seeing Evie, or it could be attributed to someone who actually was drunk and helping a friend out. Even in complete dark with headlights you’d be able to see a DARK stain on someone. It bothers me that that wasn’t mentioned so I don’t even take Mr. X’s account into consideration. I think it was someone who was hoping to do good and gave information that doesn’t attribute to this case.
I still am really concerned that the other babysitter wasn’t interviewed, questioned, or given a lie detector test. There isn’t much known about her and she could have easily been a promiscuous teenager who hung around bad company. If she told the people she hung out with that she was babysitting at the professors house they could have shown up to ambush her. I really do think the babysitter that cancelled really should have been talked to and that she could have given a lot of clues. Its one of the many things in this case that frustrate me. With that being said it also makes me wonder if the babysitter and Evie got along? I assume bullying wasn’t a known thing back then but could Evie had been targeted by the babysitter, and friends, because she was intelligent, pretty, and from all accounts not involved in any drama or bad things. If she didn’t get along with someone at school (we ALL know how catty girls are) it could be easy that another girl knew she was babysitting and told her boyfriend to go “scare” Evie and it ended up being much worse than planned.
I also would love to know if they tested the blood on the clothing from the box at the gas station. It seems kind of odd that someone, that just essentially murdered someone, would drive to a gas station and change their clothes and leave them there. I may just be thinking about the times now and cameras being EVERYWHERE. It also seems kind of odd to me that someone would dispose of clothing at a gas station when other clothing was thrown along a country road.. why wouldn’t they just do the same with the rest of their clothing? In my opinion the man dropping the clothes in a box could have been a hunter, could have disposed of the clothes in a much better way, and just isn’t logical. It sounds like the town nearby was rather rural which could explain hunters discarding of clothes, which to me makes more sense. Plus I’ve seen my friends come back after gutting a dear and it wasn’t exactly the prettiest site. Assuming they have those clothes from the box they can easily test them now, and I have a STRONG feeling it would be animal blood.
Punklove (post 256) cites an article saying there was a large pool of blood found on a highway 12 miles south of where the bra and panties were found. I wonder, and would like to know, how well the area of the articles of clothing was searched? I’ve read in 27 pages that the whole town of LaCrosse was searched. In that case this very well could be in LaFarge. It sounds like not much of anything in LaFarge was searched or followed through with. I’d assume if searches were conducted around the articles of clothing found they would have found all of them at once. From what I’ve read it seems to be that they were found multiple days apart. The other option is that the area WAS indeed searched but the abductor(s) were slowly getting rid of the evidence as to not cause a huge search of the area where her body may have been. They also could have thrown the clothing in the area opposite of where they were traveling to. With all that being said if there was a large pool of blood 12 miles south of that area I seriously hope the, heavily wooded area I assume, was searched thoroughly. Her body could have been there. That’s another thing that irritates me.
Another theory I was pondering throughout reading the thread was the fact that the basement window could have been an afterthought. She could have answered the door for a number of reasons which I will mention below. The people that came in the front door could have expected her to give in easily and instead she gave up a fight. Which, in return, resulted in the disturbances in the living room and basement. So my question is.. could the basement window have been opened AFTER the incident in the upstairs happened to deter police from thinking it was a friend, a sales person, or a neighbor.
I know everyone keeps focusing on the fact that so many people were given a lie detector, up to 2,000 males, but we’ve learned through recent cases that lie detectors can be beaten. They aren’t a form of evidence accepted in a trial now. Most police will only give a lie detector if a) you ask for one or b) they know you did the crime and convince you to confess because of a lack in evidence. The lie detector was invented in 1921. With that being said in 1923 the DC Circuit court started stating that lie detector tests weren’t reliable! (thank you google!) but it was still used as a form of testing. Many people have since noticed that there are ways of beating a polygraph test. I also wonder what questions were asked, was everyone asked the same questions, were these tests done consecutively throughout the day. If they were the same questions, which I assume they were, I’m sure people talked about the questions asked which gives time for the abductor(s) to prepare his/her answer. In addition to that I assume it took longer than a day to test 2,000+ people. To beat a lie detector test all you need is to have a slow, calm, heart rate during the questioning. Many people have learned how to slow and quicken their heart rates to beat these tests. I also wonder if they used control questions back then, like they do now?
Punklove made a very good point (post 267). The window was so small that a teenage girl could have went in through it. One of Evies friends could have easily climbed into the window, scared her, then let another person in the front of back door. With that being said it makes much more sense that a teenage girl went through the window, if anyone even did. I (referring back to my old post) was about the same size as Evie at 16 (give or take a few pounds) and had the same style windows. I was young, dumb, and 16, and attempted to sneak out of the house. I quickly gave up and went out another window upstairs because of the angle that you have to come out of the window it hurts and it’s just hard in general. I highly doubt anyone would be able to force her out a window, but I do believe that a small teenage girl could fit into the window. I know a friend of mine used to sneak into her house through the basement windows. Was there any other females questioned at all?
I also would like to know the distance from the house that heard her screams to the house where she was at. This may already be mentioned and I missed it. In addition to that I wonder if his house is anywhere near where the dogs lost the scent of Evie? Did he have any children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews? Could they have been staying with him and become interested in Evie? I think this case frustrates me so much because of how the investigation was conducted. A lot of perspectives weren’t “looked” at in the way they would be now. A lot of evidence was contaminated. I seriously think this case should have been solved YEARS ago!
Another thing I was thinking about while reading all the posts is the fact that the neighbor could have thought the screams were domestic. From my understanding domestic violence was kind of expected back then. Your job as a man was to work, take care of your family, and keep your woman in check. No one talked about domestic violence, if that was even a term, back then. Still to this day domestic violence isn’t talked about as much as it should be. That’s another reason why the jacket wouldn’t have been spoken for. Most men had complete control over their wives. If they didn’t bring the paper home, their wives didn’t see it. They could control who their wives talked to, where they went, and when they went. It was common. My grandmother, up to her passing away, was still very loyal to my grandfather. She ASKED him if it was okay to go to the hospital. It was a different time back then and people were different. Your life was private and your personal situations were private. It was rare to have an independent woman married to an independent man. Another point I’d like to point out, is if the two people who are “drunks, did murder her and came home with a missing jacket and shoes the wife may know they are drunks and losing clothing was a common thing. I know when I was 20-21 I lost a lot of things and shoes were the number one things, but then again I wore heels pretty often. The wife may have known about the jacket and not spoken up for fear of a backlash if she was wrong.
I still feel strongly that the father has some connections to the case. I know everyone was so adamant that he wasn’t involved, that he was a concerned father, and that he just did what he thought was right. I keep going back to the fact that he entered through the same window that “supposedly” the people who took his daughter went through.. that he contaminated that evidence but walked across the street to use the phone. He LEFT the child in the house, the house that has numerous signs of disturbances. The fact that many accounts, from what little I’ve read on here, have said that he was a very strict father. It was his way or noway. It kills me to know that it took 39 minutes before he called 911 and that he thought the blood pools was menstrual blood. It KILLS me that her siblings won’t give DNA. I couldn’t imagine my sister going missing, and we haven’t talked since I was 8 (I’m 23 now), not giving DNA in hopes to identify or find her. I completely understand the whole “the past is in the past and they moved on” but still.. if you had the option of putting your DNA in a system that could possibly put your sister to rest I don’t see why that would be an issue? How do you get over the fact that your sister is missing, your flesh and blood, was possibly murdered? GRRRRR! Did Evies siblings have children? Could there be a possibility to get DNA from them? Assuming their children are older and grew up in this “generation” they’d be more inclined to give DNA. I wonder how they don’t want to know what happened to their sister, aunt, daughter, cousin. I could be wrong, but it seems like a lot of familial DNA are closing cashes now. That’s another thing that makes me believe the father may have had something to do with it.. if the children give DNA it would also help identify any other blood as the fathers. They may not want to tarnish their fathers reputation since he’s unable to defend himself anym ore. Thirty-nine minutes to call 911 though.
From everything that I’ve read I’ve slowly discounted Gein from having any connection to this crime. Even with the mentions of the vulva’s being found in his home he wasn’t interested in younger women. With the mention of the vulvas being found couldn’t they compare Evies DNA they have from her hairbrush, rollers, menstrual pads? Killing a younger girl wouldn’t do anything for him, or for his goal, to make a human woman’s skin suit. (That’s still so disgusting to me!) I know a lot of states are backlogged on forensic cases. Most rape cases are still not imported instantly, which is appalling.
After all this time and no body being found has anyone ever suggested or looked into the houses that were made soon after? What I’m getting at, assuming most, if all these houses has basements, someone would have to dig them. She was taken on a Saturday night. They could have easily dug a hole in an already dug basement and Monday morning she was paved over. It’s a thought that I keep pondering and it bothers me thinking that she could have been under someone’s house all these years and no one thought to look.
I keep going over the fact that her clothes weren’t found but her undergarments were. As many people have mentioned, they could have been given to a spouse or daughter. Going with the theory that someone broke in to rape her, she could have been undressed in the house and ran outside to escape. The person inside could have “cleaned” up the area they were in just to make sure nothing was left behind. With that being said the second person would have caught her outside and if she struggled could have hit her to subdue her.
With the above theory (which is also mentioned on page 20) could they have ran out of time to finish the rape? What time did the game begin and end? We’re the family she was babysitting for late for the game? From everything I’ve read at this point I’ve concluded that the family left between 6:30-6:45. It sounds like the father called the cops at 9:46pm and from news articles (which we all know could be untrue) people were already home/started arriving home. Does anyone know the outcome of the game? I know it probably doesn’t have much baring on the case but thinking about it, (as was mentioned throughout the thread), I wonder if it could have been a prank from the rival team. If they lost they may have gotten angered and killed her. At the same time I’m thinking about the current times where we all have cellphones so they would have trouble getting the information as instantly as we have the privilege of. That point may not be anything but I’m going to leave it in as just a theory.
I also ponder the fact that this is a SMALL town from what I’ve learned. Assuming that this area was like my families area (we grew up in PA) they NEVER locked their doors. In fact my uncle JUST started locking his door last year after a break in. My parents never had keys to their house but always knew the door would be unlocked. Could the doors have been unlocked and the abductor(s) locked them to make it look like she was secure, or hold of cops for a bit?
Going with the theory about her having a boy come over could easily explain away the reasoning of a car circling the block. They could have been waiting for the family to leave before he came in. I’d assume in the 1950’s it was a strict “no boys allowed” atmosphere. In the aspect that no girl should be hanging out with a boy unsupervised, and certainly not while babysitting a child. I could be wrong but the values back then were WAY more traditional than they are now.
I’d also like to point out that many times its been mentioned by Joellegirl that the front door was facing the backyard. So technically if they took her out of the front door it wouldn’t be facing the street. It would have been a bit more cover for them.
Another point that’s reoccurring is that the clothing was strewn down the road in an amateur way. Back then DNA testing wasn’t as advanced as it is today. The abductor(s) could have thrown those things down the road because why would they bring them home or keep them on them? They could have driven in a different direction then the way they live to throw the trail off. With that being said I don’t think these people were the “smartest” so it very well could be that they threw them along the road in the direction they were going. I really don’t think the questioning of where the menstrual pad could be since it wasn’t found with her panties is not anything to be concerned with. My aunt still, to this day, uses the clips that hold the pad on. I don’t know why. Anyway she has said that without panties it wouldn’t stay in place at all. (She drives me a bit nuts)
Could Evie have been left in the basement window alcove, (why can’t I think of the word for it!) loosing blood, and somehow came to? There have been stranger stories of someone basically knocking on deaths door somehow getting to someone’s house for help, a phone call, or just for easier discovery. There’s always that adrenaline rush when you get seriously hurt, and again stranger things have been done. She could have been RUNNING zig zag, assuming shes running straight, towards a light. The light may have been the persons car she was supposed to be taken to and that’s why they lost her scent. At this point she’d be dizzy, distraught, and still losing blood. Adrenaline is an amazing thing though.
I’m ending this now, as again, I ended up staying up until 2am reading up on this case. I still have a bunch of points and things I learned from the research I was doing that I will hopefully be able to post tomorrow.
dogperson
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The father had tried to call Evelyn several times with no answer, so when he goes over to the house to check things out, do you think maybe he went in the window in order to sneak in and see if Evelyn had a boy there or to see if he could catch her up to something? I know the other doors and windows were locked, so I guess it was the only way he could get in?
I have always believed that the other babysitter was the real target for whatever happened. If somebody had their eye on her they might not have known she wouldn't be there. Once they came in and found Evelyn instead, maybe she freaked out and fought them, was badly injured, and they felt they had to get rid of her. She may have known this boy/man or boys/men who came in and they didn't want her to be able to tell anyone. It could have been a robbery gone wrong or they may have just intended to sexually assault the original babysitter.
It really is bizarre that her father thought the blood was menstrual blood. That doesn't even make sense. Even if it was her "time of the month" who bleeds all over the floor and grass?
I have always believed that the other babysitter was the real target for whatever happened. If somebody had their eye on her they might not have known she wouldn't be there. Once they came in and found Evelyn instead, maybe she freaked out and fought them, was badly injured, and they felt they had to get rid of her. She may have known this boy/man or boys/men who came in and they didn't want her to be able to tell anyone. It could have been a robbery gone wrong or they may have just intended to sexually assault the original babysitter.
It really is bizarre that her father thought the blood was menstrual blood. That doesn't even make sense. Even if it was her "time of the month" who bleeds all over the floor and grass?
Thatjessgirl
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Okay Im actually on early enough in the afternoon that what Im thinking may make more sense.
Claudettes post (page 23 post 553) mentions a traveling sales man in the area that was convicted of raping a housewife. I mentioned that in my first post that I wondered if it could have been someone going door to door selling things. With that being said the steeplejack jacket (from what I understand) could very well have been his because he was selling roofing supplies. It sounds like he was questions in connection to Evies case, and I believe he was ruled out because his wife gave him an alibi. If someone did go through a basement window, which I still have problems with, it would be much more understandable if his wife went through then let him in, or chased her out of the house. People were, and ARE still, so trusting of door to door sales men. Where I live we still get the dreaded Kirby and meat sales men that knock on my door. She could have answered the door and said she wasnt interested in what he was selling, or that she was babysitting and this wasnt her house. I still question the fact that he was selling roofing supplies in a newly constructed area. With that being said, she could have looked out the door, not recognized the person, and not answered. I tend to not answer the door often unless Im expecting someone, or with a shotgun (which tends to get me into trouble because my husbands marines stop over unannounced way to much). I personally couldnt find much information regarding Bernard Lauer at all.. Google was not my friend on that aspect.
Another thing I was thinking is could she have run into the basement after hearing noises to hide? Someone could have ambushed her down there and she had the chance to run back upstairs and out the front, or back door, with a bit of a scuffle inside. I still feel as though two people were involved but it perplexes me, with how muddy it was outside, that there was only one set of footprints. Were there any foot prints from her? Im assuming from the general crime scene contamination (the dad, the neighbors, and a multitude of police) that many foot prints could have been overlooked. Also how did they rule out that the shoe prints werent from her father?
I just want to go back to the fact that its been mentioned multiple times that the abductors may have left the state. Back then there wasnt the type of DNA tests that we have now. The scene itself was contaminated. I really feel as though someone close to Evie was involved in this and may have even helped search for her.
Veryveritas made a post (page 26 post 637) that her dad could have been easily spying on her (curtains were open, lights were on) and saw something he didnt like. They also made a point that its suspicious that the baby, which in the newspaper articles states she was an easily awoken baby, slept through all of the commotion inside an was asleep when the father arrived. I also agree with the suspicions about the dad. I know its been stressed, and basically dismissed, that the dad had no part in it. I have a weird feeling that there is a possibility that he was involved. Either knowing someone, seeing something, or himself doing this to her.
In the last two pages of the thread (26 and 27) there were mentions of Evie possibly being a party girl and meeting older boys and getting into trouble in LaFarge. Could that be why her parents made her babysit? They may have known, or caught her, doing something that they didnt approve of and grounded her or used missing the homecoming game as punishment. So many things were privately discussed and handled back then. Thats another reason why her dad may have gone to check up on her. Mr. Hartley, from what Ive read, seems to be a very strict and no nonsense man. Mr. Hartley could have went over to check up on his daughter and found an older man, or a boy in general, at the house and went into a fit of rage. I really feel like the family is connected more than people are saying. There has to be a better reason why her siblings wont submit DNA. If there dad did commit the crime, Id assume it was discussed quietly between the family, his DNA would be there which would be a really good reason for them not giving DNA.
I was wondering what the law enforcement situation was in LaCrosse? Do they have a cold case unit or are they a small town police force? I saw the the original detectives on Evies case have all passed away which makes me wonder who has her case now? Has anyone suggested any of the ideas/theories here to the local police? They might need someone to push them to working on her case to get a break in it. I personally feel whoever did this to Evie is long gone. Another question I was wondering was when did self locking doors become popular?
Id like to thank Joellegirl for all the first hand information and input shes given.
Now to watch the youtube videos and look for news articles since most of the ones in here no longer work
.
Claudettes post (page 23 post 553) mentions a traveling sales man in the area that was convicted of raping a housewife. I mentioned that in my first post that I wondered if it could have been someone going door to door selling things. With that being said the steeplejack jacket (from what I understand) could very well have been his because he was selling roofing supplies. It sounds like he was questions in connection to Evies case, and I believe he was ruled out because his wife gave him an alibi. If someone did go through a basement window, which I still have problems with, it would be much more understandable if his wife went through then let him in, or chased her out of the house. People were, and ARE still, so trusting of door to door sales men. Where I live we still get the dreaded Kirby and meat sales men that knock on my door. She could have answered the door and said she wasnt interested in what he was selling, or that she was babysitting and this wasnt her house. I still question the fact that he was selling roofing supplies in a newly constructed area. With that being said, she could have looked out the door, not recognized the person, and not answered. I tend to not answer the door often unless Im expecting someone, or with a shotgun (which tends to get me into trouble because my husbands marines stop over unannounced way to much). I personally couldnt find much information regarding Bernard Lauer at all.. Google was not my friend on that aspect.
Another thing I was thinking is could she have run into the basement after hearing noises to hide? Someone could have ambushed her down there and she had the chance to run back upstairs and out the front, or back door, with a bit of a scuffle inside. I still feel as though two people were involved but it perplexes me, with how muddy it was outside, that there was only one set of footprints. Were there any foot prints from her? Im assuming from the general crime scene contamination (the dad, the neighbors, and a multitude of police) that many foot prints could have been overlooked. Also how did they rule out that the shoe prints werent from her father?
I just want to go back to the fact that its been mentioned multiple times that the abductors may have left the state. Back then there wasnt the type of DNA tests that we have now. The scene itself was contaminated. I really feel as though someone close to Evie was involved in this and may have even helped search for her.
Veryveritas made a post (page 26 post 637) that her dad could have been easily spying on her (curtains were open, lights were on) and saw something he didnt like. They also made a point that its suspicious that the baby, which in the newspaper articles states she was an easily awoken baby, slept through all of the commotion inside an was asleep when the father arrived. I also agree with the suspicions about the dad. I know its been stressed, and basically dismissed, that the dad had no part in it. I have a weird feeling that there is a possibility that he was involved. Either knowing someone, seeing something, or himself doing this to her.
In the last two pages of the thread (26 and 27) there were mentions of Evie possibly being a party girl and meeting older boys and getting into trouble in LaFarge. Could that be why her parents made her babysit? They may have known, or caught her, doing something that they didnt approve of and grounded her or used missing the homecoming game as punishment. So many things were privately discussed and handled back then. Thats another reason why her dad may have gone to check up on her. Mr. Hartley, from what Ive read, seems to be a very strict and no nonsense man. Mr. Hartley could have went over to check up on his daughter and found an older man, or a boy in general, at the house and went into a fit of rage. I really feel like the family is connected more than people are saying. There has to be a better reason why her siblings wont submit DNA. If there dad did commit the crime, Id assume it was discussed quietly between the family, his DNA would be there which would be a really good reason for them not giving DNA.
I was wondering what the law enforcement situation was in LaCrosse? Do they have a cold case unit or are they a small town police force? I saw the the original detectives on Evies case have all passed away which makes me wonder who has her case now? Has anyone suggested any of the ideas/theories here to the local police? They might need someone to push them to working on her case to get a break in it. I personally feel whoever did this to Evie is long gone. Another question I was wondering was when did self locking doors become popular?
Id like to thank Joellegirl for all the first hand information and input shes given.
Now to watch the youtube videos and look for news articles since most of the ones in here no longer work
.
Thatjessgirl
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I still am up in the air about the basement window. I do think her dad could have came there to check up on her and make sure no one was there.
I wish there was more information about the regular babysitter. I feel like she may know information that may help in the case. She could have heard noises before, been creeped out, saw figures, or had "random" people stop by before that were suspcious.
The menstrual blood thing is weird. I'm assuming, if we're going with the theory he was no way involved, that he wrote it off to keep a positive outlook on the situation.
I wish there was more information about the regular babysitter. I feel like she may know information that may help in the case. She could have heard noises before, been creeped out, saw figures, or had "random" people stop by before that were suspcious.
The menstrual blood thing is weird. I'm assuming, if we're going with the theory he was no way involved, that he wrote it off to keep a positive outlook on the situation.
Thatjessgirl
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Okay I’m actually on early enough in the afternoon that what I’m thinking may make more sense.
Claudette’s post (page 23 post 553) mentions a traveling sales man in the area that was convicted of raping a housewife. I mentioned that in my first post that I wondered if it could have been someone going door to door selling things. With that being said the steeplejack jacket (from what I understand) could very well have been his because he was selling roofing supplies. It sounds like he was questions in connection to Evies case, and I believe he was ruled out because his wife gave him an alibi. If someone did go through a basement window, which I still have problems with, it would be much more understandable if his wife went through then let him in, or chased her out of the house. People were, and ARE still, so trusting of door to door sales men. Where I live we still get the dreaded Kirby and meat sales men that knock on my door. She could have answered the door and said she wasn’t interested in what he was selling, or that she was babysitting and this wasn’t her house. I still question the fact that he was selling roofing supplies in a newly constructed area. With that being said, she could have looked out the door, not recognized the person, and not answered. I tend to not answer the door often unless I’m expecting someone, or with a shotgun (which tends to get me into trouble because my husbands marines stop over unannounced way to much). I personally couldn’t find much information regarding Bernard Lauer at all.. Google was not my friend on that aspect.
Another thing I was thinking is could she have run into the basement after hearing noises to hide? Someone could have ambushed her down there and she had the chance to run back upstairs and out the front, or back door, with a bit of a scuffle inside. I still feel as though two people were involved but it perplexes me, with how muddy it was outside, that there was only one set of footprints. Were there any foot prints from her? I’m assuming from the general crime scene contamination (the dad, the neighbors, and a multitude of police) that many foot prints could have been overlooked. Also how did they rule out that the shoe prints weren’t from her father?
I just want to go back to the fact that its been mentioned multiple times that the abductors may have left the state. Back then there wasn’t the type of DNA tests that we have now. The scene itself was contaminated. I really feel as though someone close to Evie was involved in this and may have even helped search for her.
Veryveritas made a post (page 26 post 637) that her dad could have been easily spying on her (curtains were open, lights were on) and saw something he didn’t like. They also made a point that its suspicious that the baby, which in the newspaper articles states she was an easily awoken baby, slept through all of the commotion inside an was asleep when the father arrived. I also agree with the suspicions about the dad. I know it’s been stressed, and basically dismissed, that the dad had no part in it. I have a weird feeling that there is a possibility that he was involved. Either knowing someone, seeing something, or himself doing this to her.
In the last two pages of the thread (26 and 27) there were mentions of Evie possibly being a party girl and meeting older boys and getting into trouble in LaFarge. Could that be why her parents made her babysit? They may have known, or caught her, doing something that they didn’t approve of and “grounded” her or used missing the homecoming game as punishment. So many things were privately discussed and handled back then. That’s another reason why her dad may have gone to check up on her. Mr. Hartley, from what I’ve read, seems to be a very strict and no nonsense man. Mr. Hartley could have went over to check up on his daughter and found an older man, or a boy in general, at the house and went into a fit of rage. I really feel like the family is connected more than people are saying. There has to be a better reason why her siblings won’t submit DNA. If there dad did commit the crime, I’d assume it was discussed quietly between the family, his DNA would be there which would be a really good reason for them not giving DNA.
I was wondering what the law enforcement situation was in LaCrosse? Do they have a cold case unit or are they a small town police force? I saw the the original detectives on Evies case have all passed away which makes me wonder who has her case now? Has anyone suggested any of the ideas/theories here to the local police? They might need someone to push them to working on her case to get a break in it. I personally feel whoever did this to Evie is long gone. Another question I was wondering was when did self locking doors become popular?
I’d like to thank Joellegirl for all the first hand information and input she’s given.
Now to watch the youtube videos and look for news articles since most of the ones in here no longer work.
Claudette’s post (page 23 post 553) mentions a traveling sales man in the area that was convicted of raping a housewife. I mentioned that in my first post that I wondered if it could have been someone going door to door selling things. With that being said the steeplejack jacket (from what I understand) could very well have been his because he was selling roofing supplies. It sounds like he was questions in connection to Evies case, and I believe he was ruled out because his wife gave him an alibi. If someone did go through a basement window, which I still have problems with, it would be much more understandable if his wife went through then let him in, or chased her out of the house. People were, and ARE still, so trusting of door to door sales men. Where I live we still get the dreaded Kirby and meat sales men that knock on my door. She could have answered the door and said she wasn’t interested in what he was selling, or that she was babysitting and this wasn’t her house. I still question the fact that he was selling roofing supplies in a newly constructed area. With that being said, she could have looked out the door, not recognized the person, and not answered. I tend to not answer the door often unless I’m expecting someone, or with a shotgun (which tends to get me into trouble because my husbands marines stop over unannounced way to much). I personally couldn’t find much information regarding Bernard Lauer at all.. Google was not my friend on that aspect.
Another thing I was thinking is could she have run into the basement after hearing noises to hide? Someone could have ambushed her down there and she had the chance to run back upstairs and out the front, or back door, with a bit of a scuffle inside. I still feel as though two people were involved but it perplexes me, with how muddy it was outside, that there was only one set of footprints. Were there any foot prints from her? I’m assuming from the general crime scene contamination (the dad, the neighbors, and a multitude of police) that many foot prints could have been overlooked. Also how did they rule out that the shoe prints weren’t from her father?
I just want to go back to the fact that its been mentioned multiple times that the abductors may have left the state. Back then there wasn’t the type of DNA tests that we have now. The scene itself was contaminated. I really feel as though someone close to Evie was involved in this and may have even helped search for her.
Veryveritas made a post (page 26 post 637) that her dad could have been easily spying on her (curtains were open, lights were on) and saw something he didn’t like. They also made a point that its suspicious that the baby, which in the newspaper articles states she was an easily awoken baby, slept through all of the commotion inside an was asleep when the father arrived. I also agree with the suspicions about the dad. I know it’s been stressed, and basically dismissed, that the dad had no part in it. I have a weird feeling that there is a possibility that he was involved. Either knowing someone, seeing something, or himself doing this to her.
In the last two pages of the thread (26 and 27) there were mentions of Evie possibly being a party girl and meeting older boys and getting into trouble in LaFarge. Could that be why her parents made her babysit? They may have known, or caught her, doing something that they didn’t approve of and “grounded” her or used missing the homecoming game as punishment. So many things were privately discussed and handled back then. That’s another reason why her dad may have gone to check up on her. Mr. Hartley, from what I’ve read, seems to be a very strict and no nonsense man. Mr. Hartley could have went over to check up on his daughter and found an older man, or a boy in general, at the house and went into a fit of rage. I really feel like the family is connected more than people are saying. There has to be a better reason why her siblings won’t submit DNA. If there dad did commit the crime, I’d assume it was discussed quietly between the family, his DNA would be there which would be a really good reason for them not giving DNA.
I was wondering what the law enforcement situation was in LaCrosse? Do they have a cold case unit or are they a small town police force? I saw the the original detectives on Evies case have all passed away which makes me wonder who has her case now? Has anyone suggested any of the ideas/theories here to the local police? They might need someone to push them to working on her case to get a break in it. I personally feel whoever did this to Evie is long gone. Another question I was wondering was when did self locking doors become popular?
I’d like to thank Joellegirl for all the first hand information and input she’s given.
Now to watch the youtube videos and look for news articles since most of the ones in here no longer work
.
Thatjessgirl
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Sorry for the previous double posts and sorry for so many posts! I'm officially all caught up and these are my last few thoughts before looking into articles which after today I won't have much chance to do for a bit.
The basement window showed in the youtube videos is a lot bigger than I expected. Quite frankly I do believe someone would be able to get in and out through that with no problem being Evies size.
To answer one of the questions I asked earlier. LaCrosse won the game against the team they were playing which really makes me wonder if people were listening to the radio at a party and got angered at the score and decided to go get some revenge against a local LaCrosse resident.
The abduction happened between 7:15 and 9:10pm. That gives a little under 2 hours for this whole thing to play out.. and I'm assuming that it would have been about an hour and a half because the father would have noticed if someone was leaving the driveway at the time he arrived.
They mention that a car was seen over the LaCrosse bridge.. Was that over a body of water? Was that body of water searched? I'm assuming the weather was catching up with the case and made it rather hard to investigate the water with freezing temperatures. A frozen pond/lake/river could conceal a body for a good amount of time.
I'd also like to mention that the searches were reported as "circuses". They are THOUSANDS of people searching, including young people, old people, and children. With that large of a group searching for her there could have been many things missed and disturbed.
I'd also like to note that the abduction happened on Saturday the 24th but cars were not checked until THURSDAY the 29th. That gives a person 5 days to clean their car.
I still, after watching the videos, don't see Gein as being any part of this. This wasn't his MO.
The reconstruction that was shown on the video and the age of the person could be wildly different. We've all seen cases where someone drew a reconstruction of a skull that looked nothing like the actual person it was. Not all reconstructive artists are like Angela from bones. I wonder if they could do another reconstruction now?
It sounds like a lot of evidence may have been lost or misplaced in this case. I wonder if the reason the family members don't want to give DNA is because they were told evidence was lost. The jacket and shoes that everyone focuses on aren't even proved in connection to the case and are missing, and have been missing since 1969 when the Madison crime lab sent them back to the LaCrosse police.
The basement window showed in the youtube videos is a lot bigger than I expected. Quite frankly I do believe someone would be able to get in and out through that with no problem being Evies size.
To answer one of the questions I asked earlier. LaCrosse won the game against the team they were playing which really makes me wonder if people were listening to the radio at a party and got angered at the score and decided to go get some revenge against a local LaCrosse resident.
The abduction happened between 7:15 and 9:10pm. That gives a little under 2 hours for this whole thing to play out.. and I'm assuming that it would have been about an hour and a half because the father would have noticed if someone was leaving the driveway at the time he arrived.
They mention that a car was seen over the LaCrosse bridge.. Was that over a body of water? Was that body of water searched? I'm assuming the weather was catching up with the case and made it rather hard to investigate the water with freezing temperatures. A frozen pond/lake/river could conceal a body for a good amount of time.
I'd also like to mention that the searches were reported as "circuses". They are THOUSANDS of people searching, including young people, old people, and children. With that large of a group searching for her there could have been many things missed and disturbed.
I'd also like to note that the abduction happened on Saturday the 24th but cars were not checked until THURSDAY the 29th. That gives a person 5 days to clean their car.
I still, after watching the videos, don't see Gein as being any part of this. This wasn't his MO.
The reconstruction that was shown on the video and the age of the person could be wildly different. We've all seen cases where someone drew a reconstruction of a skull that looked nothing like the actual person it was. Not all reconstructive artists are like Angela from bones. I wonder if they could do another reconstruction now?
It sounds like a lot of evidence may have been lost or misplaced in this case. I wonder if the reason the family members don't want to give DNA is because they were told evidence was lost. The jacket and shoes that everyone focuses on aren't even proved in connection to the case and are missing, and have been missing since 1969 when the Madison crime lab sent them back to the LaCrosse police.
jashrema
Verified insider - Sierah Joughin case
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I have read this entire thread and also watched all 6 videos on youtube from the reporter Steve Bothun. There is certainly wild speculation going on and on, more things added to the story, etc. JMO is that I am more prone to believe the youtube videos as they actually interview the detectives and witnessess that were THERE at the time. At this time, they were all still alive. This is what is put together from videos and perhaps closest to the truth as being a victim of a brutal crime myself, I am personally acquainted with the newspapers getting most everything wrong about my own case and then just plain making things up to make it more "tittilating" So from the mouths of the investigators, witnesses and DA at the time..
1. The neighbor who called the police at the request of Mr. Hartley called at 9:49 pm. After having a conversation with Mr. Hartley about something not being right, he was the one that asked if he should call police and Mr. Hartley said yes.
2. Police arrive within minutes and enter the house.
Her glasses (UNBROKEN) in the actual police photos, a muddy size 11 footprint, and one of her shoes is found in living room. Other than that...no real signs of struggle.
Her other shoe is found on bottom of basement steps and there is a SMALL step stool, NOT a full ladder beneath the open window...it leads me to believe that Evelyn was trying to get out that way OR the perp took her down the basement to rape her, put the ladder under the window for a quick getaway after he was done with rape.
Somehow, both are now outside the basement window approx 10 feet away. There is a SMALL pool of blood with human hair in it at this spot. The large pools of blood people are talking about are just not there...they show the actual crime scene photo and it is not that big.
There are size 11 shoe prints all around the back areas of the homes there and leading into neighborhood. Like the perp was walking around deciding which house to go into. Prowling and finally found a woman alone (Which is what the police believe, that he was looking to commit a sex crime, not a robbery.)According to the video one of the other houses there ALSO had pry marks on window showing that the perp attempted to break in to at least one other home.
The side of the Rasmuson house had a blood smear and hand print on it. Looking at the crime scene photos...again, this is not a huge amount of blood at all. Minimal really. Police state that hand is of perp and blood is on it because he had punched Evelyn in her nose and her nose was bleeding.
On the Fanteel home 2310 Couley (around the corner) there is another small blood smear on the side of their garage.
At the home Of Eugene Dowler? 2311 Couley there is a LARGE amount of blood by their basement window in the SE corner. So large that it has actually seeped in thru the well window into the home. Upon seeing this blood...Mrs. Hartley said her daughter was no longer alive. The detective stated that it was the consensus that Evelyn had lain there for some time according to the blood evidence. (Maybe so the perp could get his car and bring it around to where she lay?)
Nothing is said about any other footprints (Evelyns or another 2nd perp) just the size 11's. There is no other blood commented on either at this point
It tends to reason that Evelyn, with that big of injury is CARRIED into a car. On the video it not stated that there are drag marks or staggering marks of Evelyns footprints.
Neighbors the Saterbucks, (married) come forth and say that at approx. 7:15 they hear 3 piercing screams, with the last scream being "choked off" or faded out quickly. They are husband and wife and the husband feels it is kids that got into trouble and the wife states that it was a scream of "STOP GET AWAY FROM ME" type. The wife is visibly upset that she heard her scream now knowing what happened..Mrs. Satterbuck states she saw a dark tan old sedan possibly.
Scent is traced to end of street. (Air scent dogs can pick up the scent of someone in a car)
So right now my hypothesis is that she was either stabbed, clubbed, etc severely at neighbors basement window, she is incapacitated and he has to leave her there while he goes and gets his car and carries her into it and leaves the scene. Consensus amongst detectives is that he went SOUTH.
They leave at approx. 1AM and let the Rasmusens BACK INTO house to go about their lives. The house is not cordoned off as a crime scene!!
Sunday....Over 1000 people gather by noon at the Rasmussen home, further contaminating everything in sight. Search parties are organized by Chief of Police standing on the steps of the Rasmussens home.
One of the searchers interviewed stated that it was a free for all...circus, everyone running around.
Searches reveal nothing.
Monday..... the car "at the bridge" was discounted as Sparta police made a mistake and copied wrong license plate and it was a dead end.
Chief Talbot of the HWP announces that a peeping Tom has been in the area for over a year, leering at one woman ironing in her basement and telling her "he was going to get her". The story frightened everyone, even the detectives 12 year old son (according to wife of detective interviewed) nailed the basement windows shut.
Civil air patrol and National Guard did air searches, and the storm sewers were even walked thru to make sure she wasn't in the sewer system.
Wednesday....The FBI stated they were coming in to help based on the Lindbergh Law which allows Feds to come in if
state lines are crossed.
Thursday.....Gas station attendants..NOT the police, were instructed to check out cars that came thru their stations. If
the attendants did not notice anything suspicious the cars were given a sticker saying their car was OK.If
the owner refused to let an attendant look...they were reported to police.
Saturday.... The FBI could NOT come in because of no evidence being taken across state lines. State crime lab says
they have cleared Mr. Hartley. Media attention is national now and the cranks come out of the woodwork
and letters are sent to the Hartley. There is NO evidence that she is or was a "party girl".
*****A few WEEKS AFTER the kidnapping is when a man came forward and saw a man and woman in yard around that area and then saw them a short time later in the back of car as it sped off. He said car was a early 1940's Buick. Everyone was questioned...no luck.
14 miles from Lacrosse, near Coon Valley, they found jacket and tennis shoes along Rt. 14. The shoes match both inside and outside the crime scene. There is absolutely NO mention of ever finding her clothes, bra, panties, etc. anywhere at anytime. The blood on tennis shoes and jacket is the same type as Evelyns. The detectives that found and saw items also made no mention of anything of Evelyns. The dirt also matched from the tennis shoes to the dirt in the neighborhood.
May...7 months after the crime...police decide to polygraph all male high school and college students. They complete approx. 300 NOT 1700 before the school board shuts it down. Community is angry
October 1 year later.....DA hires special investigator AM Josephson because case was cold, it was a small dept. and they did not have experience. He worked full time and is the one who stated that because of the "striping" left on the jacket was from a steeplejack. He worked years on that theory and it was NEVER proven nor any evidence ever came up about a steeplejack.
July 1957......Jospehson went public asking for help. No new info came forward and he was released.
End of 1957....Ed Gein took polygraph and passed.
In 1984...an unidentified woman is found in a grave with hands cut off and face badly disfigured. She was estimated to be in her 50's (Which evelyn would be). They say that there are striking resemblances to Evelyn and her mother.
1985...No one has come forward after the Jane Doe info is released.
37 years later...no new clues.
1989...within 24 hours of the above newscast series, 17 tips came in and sheriffs dept receives tip that a car is buried in Pickwick with a body inside. The dig for approx. 5 hours, it starts to rain, and they give up. This area is very desolate. The tipster did mention Evelyn and as police investigated further they believed that it was a good chance they may have found her. Only 5 hours were devoted to digging and they gave up??? That seems odd to me. The Pickwick connection is closed.
1990.....Steve Bosun has newscast stating that 2 people came forward and anonomously recorded an interview with him on camera (even tho blurred, you can see that one person is older female, the other is older male) and stated they knew a farmer that on the day Evelyn was killed they were working while the farmer obsessed about going into town and ******* a woman. He wore the exact same jacket and tennis shoes that the perp wore. They worked later than normal and the farmer became more and more agitated about finding a woman to_____. At about 6:30 driving a dark colored 1938 Chevy, the farmer left to go into town still wearing the tennis shoes and jacket. They thought nothing more of it until a few weeks later when the jacket and tennis shoes were found not far from where they lived. They described the jacket exactly and stated that the strap marks (worn out stripes) on the back were from the harness from working horses in field (common in 1953). Also, they NEVER again saw the farmer wear those tennis shoes or where that jacket. They also NEVER saw his car again. There is no explanation why they didn't come forward tho they did say that on the 20th anniversary of abduction, they did talk to DA and he was not interested. They brought the story to the reporter because it still bothered them. The farmer is now dead. It has also been discovered that the tennis shoes and the jacket are NOW LOST. The crime lab states they sent them back but the police dept. has no record of it.
Shortly after the airing of the 2 new witnesses, the DA died. At his wake, the widow of the DA approached the reporter Steve Banun and stated, "John thought you finally solved it." She told the reporter that because she thought he would want to know.
So...after all this....without any evidence anymore, farmer dead, etc. this will probably never be solved but IMO the farmer is a good suspect. I think to much emphasis has been placed on dragging her out window (when the photos actually looked like she was trying to get OUT), he caught her in the yard, subdued her into unconsiousness, left her lying there while he went and brought his car around and carried her to car. The witness that stated he saw a couple in yard (according to the video) they were walking...she was not staggering, the man was not dragging her, and he waited WEEKS before coming forward with this...I dismiss him completely. I think the farmer went looking for a woman to rape and/or kill and walked around until he could see Evelyn all alone in that house. There were pry marks on another home also, it would be interesting to know whose house it was and if there was a woman alone there. He came in thru basement or even the front door, got her in basement to rape/kill and for whatever reason (she may have been able to disable him enough where she had time to grab step stool and get out window, maybe a kick to the groin?) He ran up and out of house (self locking doors) and pounced on her as she was escaping. Got her in car and that was that. Stranger abduction, crime of opportunity, and unfortunately Evelyn was the one. If these 2 seperate witnessess are to be believed, the harness marks make perfect sense from the horses, he ditches the clothes,and car and is like many other killers....a free man cuz nobody comes forward when it really counts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVKXMknjNEw
1. The neighbor who called the police at the request of Mr. Hartley called at 9:49 pm. After having a conversation with Mr. Hartley about something not being right, he was the one that asked if he should call police and Mr. Hartley said yes.
2. Police arrive within minutes and enter the house.
Her glasses (UNBROKEN) in the actual police photos, a muddy size 11 footprint, and one of her shoes is found in living room. Other than that...no real signs of struggle.
Her other shoe is found on bottom of basement steps and there is a SMALL step stool, NOT a full ladder beneath the open window...it leads me to believe that Evelyn was trying to get out that way OR the perp took her down the basement to rape her, put the ladder under the window for a quick getaway after he was done with rape.
Somehow, both are now outside the basement window approx 10 feet away. There is a SMALL pool of blood with human hair in it at this spot. The large pools of blood people are talking about are just not there...they show the actual crime scene photo and it is not that big.
There are size 11 shoe prints all around the back areas of the homes there and leading into neighborhood. Like the perp was walking around deciding which house to go into. Prowling and finally found a woman alone (Which is what the police believe, that he was looking to commit a sex crime, not a robbery.)According to the video one of the other houses there ALSO had pry marks on window showing that the perp attempted to break in to at least one other home.
The side of the Rasmuson house had a blood smear and hand print on it. Looking at the crime scene photos...again, this is not a huge amount of blood at all. Minimal really. Police state that hand is of perp and blood is on it because he had punched Evelyn in her nose and her nose was bleeding.
On the Fanteel home 2310 Couley (around the corner) there is another small blood smear on the side of their garage.
At the home Of Eugene Dowler? 2311 Couley there is a LARGE amount of blood by their basement window in the SE corner. So large that it has actually seeped in thru the well window into the home. Upon seeing this blood...Mrs. Hartley said her daughter was no longer alive. The detective stated that it was the consensus that Evelyn had lain there for some time according to the blood evidence. (Maybe so the perp could get his car and bring it around to where she lay?)
Nothing is said about any other footprints (Evelyns or another 2nd perp) just the size 11's. There is no other blood commented on either at this point
It tends to reason that Evelyn, with that big of injury is CARRIED into a car. On the video it not stated that there are drag marks or staggering marks of Evelyns footprints.
Neighbors the Saterbucks, (married) come forth and say that at approx. 7:15 they hear 3 piercing screams, with the last scream being "choked off" or faded out quickly. They are husband and wife and the husband feels it is kids that got into trouble and the wife states that it was a scream of "STOP GET AWAY FROM ME" type. The wife is visibly upset that she heard her scream now knowing what happened..Mrs. Satterbuck states she saw a dark tan old sedan possibly.
Scent is traced to end of street. (Air scent dogs can pick up the scent of someone in a car)
So right now my hypothesis is that she was either stabbed, clubbed, etc severely at neighbors basement window, she is incapacitated and he has to leave her there while he goes and gets his car and carries her into it and leaves the scene. Consensus amongst detectives is that he went SOUTH.
They leave at approx. 1AM and let the Rasmusens BACK INTO house to go about their lives. The house is not cordoned off as a crime scene!!
Sunday....Over 1000 people gather by noon at the Rasmussen home, further contaminating everything in sight. Search parties are organized by Chief of Police standing on the steps of the Rasmussens home.
One of the searchers interviewed stated that it was a free for all...circus, everyone running around.
Searches reveal nothing.
Monday..... the car "at the bridge" was discounted as Sparta police made a mistake and copied wrong license plate and it was a dead end.
Chief Talbot of the HWP announces that a peeping Tom has been in the area for over a year, leering at one woman ironing in her basement and telling her "he was going to get her". The story frightened everyone, even the detectives 12 year old son (according to wife of detective interviewed) nailed the basement windows shut.
Civil air patrol and National Guard did air searches, and the storm sewers were even walked thru to make sure she wasn't in the sewer system.
Wednesday....The FBI stated they were coming in to help based on the Lindbergh Law which allows Feds to come in if
state lines are crossed.
Thursday.....Gas station attendants..NOT the police, were instructed to check out cars that came thru their stations. If
the attendants did not notice anything suspicious the cars were given a sticker saying their car was OK.If
the owner refused to let an attendant look...they were reported to police.
Saturday.... The FBI could NOT come in because of no evidence being taken across state lines. State crime lab says
they have cleared Mr. Hartley. Media attention is national now and the cranks come out of the woodwork
and letters are sent to the Hartley. There is NO evidence that she is or was a "party girl".
*****A few WEEKS AFTER the kidnapping is when a man came forward and saw a man and woman in yard around that area and then saw them a short time later in the back of car as it sped off. He said car was a early 1940's Buick. Everyone was questioned...no luck.
14 miles from Lacrosse, near Coon Valley, they found jacket and tennis shoes along Rt. 14. The shoes match both inside and outside the crime scene. There is absolutely NO mention of ever finding her clothes, bra, panties, etc. anywhere at anytime. The blood on tennis shoes and jacket is the same type as Evelyns. The detectives that found and saw items also made no mention of anything of Evelyns. The dirt also matched from the tennis shoes to the dirt in the neighborhood.
May...7 months after the crime...police decide to polygraph all male high school and college students. They complete approx. 300 NOT 1700 before the school board shuts it down. Community is angry
October 1 year later.....DA hires special investigator AM Josephson because case was cold, it was a small dept. and they did not have experience. He worked full time and is the one who stated that because of the "striping" left on the jacket was from a steeplejack. He worked years on that theory and it was NEVER proven nor any evidence ever came up about a steeplejack.
July 1957......Jospehson went public asking for help. No new info came forward and he was released.
End of 1957....Ed Gein took polygraph and passed.
In 1984...an unidentified woman is found in a grave with hands cut off and face badly disfigured. She was estimated to be in her 50's (Which evelyn would be). They say that there are striking resemblances to Evelyn and her mother.
1985...No one has come forward after the Jane Doe info is released.
37 years later...no new clues.
1989...within 24 hours of the above newscast series, 17 tips came in and sheriffs dept receives tip that a car is buried in Pickwick with a body inside. The dig for approx. 5 hours, it starts to rain, and they give up. This area is very desolate. The tipster did mention Evelyn and as police investigated further they believed that it was a good chance they may have found her. Only 5 hours were devoted to digging and they gave up??? That seems odd to me. The Pickwick connection is closed.
1990.....Steve Bosun has newscast stating that 2 people came forward and anonomously recorded an interview with him on camera (even tho blurred, you can see that one person is older female, the other is older male) and stated they knew a farmer that on the day Evelyn was killed they were working while the farmer obsessed about going into town and ******* a woman. He wore the exact same jacket and tennis shoes that the perp wore. They worked later than normal and the farmer became more and more agitated about finding a woman to_____. At about 6:30 driving a dark colored 1938 Chevy, the farmer left to go into town still wearing the tennis shoes and jacket. They thought nothing more of it until a few weeks later when the jacket and tennis shoes were found not far from where they lived. They described the jacket exactly and stated that the strap marks (worn out stripes) on the back were from the harness from working horses in field (common in 1953). Also, they NEVER again saw the farmer wear those tennis shoes or where that jacket. They also NEVER saw his car again. There is no explanation why they didn't come forward tho they did say that on the 20th anniversary of abduction, they did talk to DA and he was not interested. They brought the story to the reporter because it still bothered them. The farmer is now dead. It has also been discovered that the tennis shoes and the jacket are NOW LOST. The crime lab states they sent them back but the police dept. has no record of it.
Shortly after the airing of the 2 new witnesses, the DA died. At his wake, the widow of the DA approached the reporter Steve Banun and stated, "John thought you finally solved it." She told the reporter that because she thought he would want to know.
So...after all this....without any evidence anymore, farmer dead, etc. this will probably never be solved but IMO the farmer is a good suspect. I think to much emphasis has been placed on dragging her out window (when the photos actually looked like she was trying to get OUT), he caught her in the yard, subdued her into unconsiousness, left her lying there while he went and brought his car around and carried her to car. The witness that stated he saw a couple in yard (according to the video) they were walking...she was not staggering, the man was not dragging her, and he waited WEEKS before coming forward with this...I dismiss him completely. I think the farmer went looking for a woman to rape and/or kill and walked around until he could see Evelyn all alone in that house. There were pry marks on another home also, it would be interesting to know whose house it was and if there was a woman alone there. He came in thru basement or even the front door, got her in basement to rape/kill and for whatever reason (she may have been able to disable him enough where she had time to grab step stool and get out window, maybe a kick to the groin?) He ran up and out of house (self locking doors) and pounced on her as she was escaping. Got her in car and that was that. Stranger abduction, crime of opportunity, and unfortunately Evelyn was the one. If these 2 seperate witnessess are to be believed, the harness marks make perfect sense from the horses, he ditches the clothes,and car and is like many other killers....a free man cuz nobody comes forward when it really counts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVKXMknjNEw
Thatjessgirl
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Jashrema you have so many ideas/points of views that I never even considered. Partially because I was unable to read any news articles! I need to find the info about the farmer because the interviews about the farmer I thought referenced Gein?