Witness accounts

[IzzyBlanche]

I really don't know why George would be laying alone on the ground and screaming for help when 13 year old says he saw him.

I agree, but the same also goes for TM.

Why would EITHER of them lying alone on the ground be screaming for help?

Not asking you specifically, just throwing the question out there.

 

[Just K]

There is a female witness who describes seeing two men on the ground, one on top of other. While she called 911 she heard a "popping noise" she then saw a man get up, while the other person was still on the ground. So she didn't see anyone running anywhere either.

Just a guess but she is probably adjacent or across for the final location.

See, part of the problem is that at the very end people did say GZ was above TM and straddling him.

Not only do we have the problem of 911 callers trying to tell why they are calling (paste tense) but they interrupt themselves to relay what was happening at that moment in time. In addition you have 911 operators interrupting the flow of the details and asking the caller about specific parts of the incident...so the darn 911 calls are disjointed. Add to that the fact that they are edited to leave out personal identifiers. Within those edited portions might have been some telltale background noises...

 

[Karmady]

Now this is funny. A month and a half ago I made this post. LOL LOL

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #17

Old 04-05-2012, 10:46 AM

Dr.Fessel
Registered User



and it was so light out he could see the guy on the bottom lips moving to know he was the one yelling for help but he could not see the guys face or Trayvon's hands or any part of his face to tell one was black and one was white.

Oh yeah and he saw the guy on bottom had a red sweater on which is very concerning since one of the people did have a sweater on but it was not red.

To me there appears to be a bit of tampering with that witness going on. ALL IMO

and, iirc, at that time, as now, posters pointed out at that time that even if he didn't see his lips moving, it was a completely logical inference that the person in red on the bottom was yelling for help.

The person on the bottom is still the one in red; George got his butt kicked, so likely (if not certainly) was on the bottom; there are multiple shouts for help on the audio; and George says that he was yelling for help. So John can't swear it was George becuase he didn't see his lips moving and he, presumably, would have no reason to recognize his voice. Not a big problem, imo, since no one but the parents recognize the voice, and even the parents of Trayvon don't (or at least didn't) agree on whether it was their son.

Reasonable doubt....

 

[Just K]

I agree, but the same also goes for TM.

Why would EITHER of them lying alone on the ground be screaming for help?

Not asking you specifically, just throwing the question out there.

It could have been a brief moment in time..seconds where GZ is getting his wits and gets back up to get to TM. The kid was racing to go get his dog. (I wonder where he found his dog?) The next thing he heard was a shot.

 

[jjenny]

I am pretty sure people who saw GZ above TM, saw him after the shot, not before.
Which is again consistent with what appears to be GZ's story.

 

[liedetector]

Yes, the mother did suggest 13 year old was led by police to pick red, but I saw 13 year old interviewed by a reporter, and when asked what the man was wearing he still said red. For whatever its worth.

Do you have a link or remember where and/or when you might have seen this because I just googled the heck out of it and didn't find anything like that...all I could find were the mother's claims that the boy was misled into saying red, and that the boy stated he wishes he could have helped Trayvon, he has nightmares and feels that if he were a couple of years older, it could have been him.

 

[jjenny]

I agree, but the same also goes for TM.

Why would EITHER of them lying alone on the ground be screaming for help?

Not asking you specifically, just throwing the question out there.

I really don't know why any of the two would be lying alone on the ground screaming for help.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I see what you are saying, but I go with Occam's Razor on this.

I think "John" initially reported what he in complete honesty thought he heard WRT to who was yelling for help, but after logical reflection from a time distance away from the incident, realized that he might have been mistaken and couldn't say for sure one way or the other.

Nothing sinister and no evidence of tampering IMO, just human nature.

I said that about the tampering a month and a half ago before we knew anything about him changing his story. That remark was made on how dark it was that he could not identify either of the people and it was all based on the red sweater on the ground and he said the guy on the bottom was yelling. At the same time we are hearing a story how the officer is trying to get the 13 yr old to say the guy on the ground was wearing red.

 

[Just K]

I really don't know why any of the two would be lying alone on the ground screaming for help.

It is one of those quandaries but two separate/unrelated witnesses relayed the same information. Other than the fight starting at the "T" maybe GZ slipped and fell in that area. We need to know where that was.

Both said that was before the shot, correct?

 

[Just K]

Where is Papa? We need him. I am geographically challenged.

I know it was in the grass but where was TM's phone in relation to GZ's personal items? Was it about the same distance into the courtyard as the plastic bag?

 

[jjenny]

It is one of those quandaries but two separate/unrelated witnesses relayed the same information. Other than the fight starting at the "T" maybe GZ slipped and fell in that area. We need to know where that was.

Both said that was before the shot, correct?

The female who said she only saw one man also said her neighbor was there (on his porch). I presume the neighbor is "John," because according to her, the neighbor said he was going to call 911. "John" never said anything about seeing just one man. So it doesn't fit-I think she was mistaken. Regarding 13 year old, we all know his mother disputes that he saw Zimmerman on the ground. I don't think he will make a good witness for either side.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I really don't know why any of the two would be lying alone on the ground screaming for help.

Me neither.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I said that about the tampering a month and a half ago before we knew anything about him changing his story. That remark was made on how dark it was that he could not identify either of the people and it was all based on the red sweater on the ground and he said the guy on the bottom was yelling. At the same time we are hearing a story how the officer is trying to get the 13 yr old to say the guy on the ground was wearing red.

Oh, okay, I get what you are saying now.

Given the consistent witness statements about how dark it was, I have always failed to understand how any witness could have identified the colors the combatants was wearing that night.

 

[jjenny]

Oh, okay, I get what you are saying now.

Given the consistent witness statements about how dark it was, I have always failed to understand how anyone could have identified the colors anyone was wearing that night.

And yet when that person I believe was "John" called 911, he correctly identified the race of the dead person on the ground. Which would have been hard to do, as Trayvon was wearing a hoodie. I think "John" is quite observant and had a good view of the fight.

 

[Just K]

I'll tell you something that really concerned me was Det Serino tempering MC & her roommates fears about GZ being free. He tells them "the person we are talking about is not going to do that...nothing to worry about."

With John, he is telling Cerino that the one on top was "throwing down blows, MMA style." Serino interrupts and says, "ground and pound" and John repeats the phrase and adds, "on concrete." This taped interview was after John "found out" the guy was Hispanic."

There was too much cross contamination of information, IMO.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

It was dark, Trayvon was beating Georges head on the sidewalk and George said he scooted enough to get his head in the grass, the witness says the guy on top was straddling the guy on the bottom and hitting him. John was 30 feet away and it was dark, how did he see the color of Georges coat?

John's first statement is here on pg 86



http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Oh, okay, I get what you are saying now.

Given the consistent witness statements about how dark it was, I have always failed to understand how any witness could have identified the colors the combatants was wearing that night.

LOL LOL I went so far as to lay out red and white and gray shirts out in my yard 30 feet from the door and looked out to see if I could see the colors. There is a street light in front of my house and I did it at the side where a little of the street light hits. I could see the white one but not the red or gray ones.

 

[Just K]

It was dark, Trayvon was beating Georges head on the sidewalk and George said he scooted enough to get his head in the grass, the witness says the guy on top was straddling the guy on the bottom and hitting him. John was 30 feet away and it was dark, how did he see the color of Georges coat?

John's first statement is here on pg 86



http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

Then we have the whole issue that the GD jacket wasn't even red, after all. It was ORANGE.

 

[jjenny]

It was dark, Trayvon was beating Georges head on the sidewalk and George said he scooted enough to get his head in the grass, the witness says the guy on top was straddling the guy on the bottom and hitting him. John was 30 feet away and it was dark, how did he see the color of Georges coat?

John's first statement is here on pg 86



http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

Let's say "John" is mistaken about color of coat and it was actually Zimmerman beating up Trayvon. No injuries to Trayvon's face, head or neck. No injuries to Zimmerman's hands. Therefore that scenario doesn't hold water and I can conclude "John" was not mistaken.

 

[jjenny]

Then we have the whole issue that the GD jacket wasn't even red, after all. It was ORANGE.

It looks different under different lighting. It looked red to me in the scene photo of the back of Zimmerman's head. Nobody else said it was actually "orange" after seeing that photo either.