Witness accounts

[Just K]

Apologies if this has already been discussed...

The witness on p. 49 of the linked document says she saw her neighbor telling someone he was going to call 911 and "the kid" on the ground, moaning. I'm assuming it's "John" talking to GZ because he's the only witness I know of who announced he was calling 911.

The point is that she saw only ONE person on the ground when "John" was outside. No fighting. Not one person on top of the other. What the heck? Am I missing something?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

JMO.

The 13 yo boy said the same thing...911 call, iirc, only saw one man on the ground. I believe Trayvon got away...GZ got to his feet and chased Trayvon to the final spot.

We need a map of each witness and their exact words and impressions as close to the incident and before hearing their neighbors rehash what they saw or hearing GZ's version or the LE statements based on other witnesses or the suspect.

 

[wowitsdark]

And eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable, in any case. I hope there will be some scientific evidence to clarify matters--each man's injuries, and so forth.

I think the piece of information that would be good to know would be if the eyewitnesses all made statements that were in sync with each other.

And if they were in sync, if they were statements that were taken independently of one another, prior to the witnesses having time to visit, or if they had perhaps had conversations with one another that influenced their recollections.

 

[Etilema]

The 13 yo boy said the same thing...911 call, iirc, only saw one man on the ground. I believe Trayvon got away...GZ got to his feet and chased Trayvon to the final spot.

We need a map of each witness and there exact words and impressions as close to the incident and before hearing their neighbors rehash what they saw or hearing GZ's version or the LE statements based on other witnesses or the suspect.

Excellent theory that could potentially explain a lot of these inconsistencies. I agree about the map/timeline of witness accounts.

 

[gator]

Excellent theory that could potentially explain a lot of these inconsistencies. I agree about the map/timeline of witness accounts.

Agree. This theory could also account for the witness who saw one figure chasing another.

 

[RR0004]

Excellent theory that could potentially explain a lot of these inconsistencies. I agree about the map/timeline of witness accounts.

This makes sense. I don't know why, but I can picture GZ coming up from behind and Trayvon elbowing him. If he elbowed him and caught him in the nose...GZ could easily have fallen. He would have been mighty pi$$ed. I can see GZ chasing after him, screaming, and Trayvon turning towards him to confront him about following him and getting shot in the process. Do we know if they found anything on Trayvon's sweatshirt?
Sorry, perhaps this should go in the theory thread...but I just wanted you to know that I can see what you're saying.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Well it appears "John's" story is starting to crumble.

A key witness to the Trayvon Martin shooting changed the story he had given Sanford, Fla., police, telling state authorities he was not sure who was screaming during the altercation with George Zimmerman, NBC Dateline confirmed Friday.

The man known as Witness #6 originally told Sanford police Zimmerman cried for help. The witness stuck to his account that he saw Martin, 17, straddling Zimmerman and pinning him to the ground before Martin was shot.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...ness-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-changed-story

Now this is funny. A month and a half ago I made this post. LOL LOL

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7760191&postcount=395"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #17[/ame]

Old 04-05-2012, 10:46 AM

Dr.Fessel
Registered User



and it was so light out he could see the guy on the bottom lips moving to know he was the one yelling for help but he could not see the guys face or Trayvon's hands or any part of his face to tell one was black and one was white.

Oh yeah and he saw the guy on bottom had a red sweater on which is very concerning since one of the people did have a sweater on but it was not red.

To me there appears to be a bit of tampering with that witness going on. ALL IMO

 

[Just K]

At least in theory, reasonable doubt should go to the defendant, since prosecution has to prove guilt. What's prosecution going to do with a witness who claims she saw one man? She can't say which man it was.
Then the 13 year old who claims he saw one man had this man wearing red.

Perhaps these two saw the middle with John seeing the beginning where there was a struggle on the ground TM gets loose, for a moment GZ is alone and gets up, then the other lady sees the chase and fistfight. The keys, flashlight, TM's phone and the tan bag are found on the ground along the way to the where GZ and TM are again tussling...perhaps now for the gun. TM ends up on top and GZ shots him. That would explain the bits and pieces of each witnesses account.

Apparently, no one saw the entire A-Z event.

 

[liedetector]

At least in theory, reasonable doubt should go to the defendant, since prosecution has to prove guilt. What's prosecution going to do with a witness who claims she saw one man? She can't say which man it was.
Then the 13 year old who claims he saw one man had this man wearing red.

For whatever it's worth, didn't the 13 year old's mother retain an attorney afterwards claiming her son repeatedly told the interviewing PO from the start that he didn't know what he saw "it was too dark," but that the PO kept pressing her son for answers, and "led" him into saying what he did? ...So you're right about this particular witness, I can't imagine anything the 13 year old said being of value to either side.

 

[Just K]

For me, I go by their immediate observations on the 911 calls...when the information has not gotten tainted by other people's input. Then it is just a matter of mapping the angle and location of each of those witnesses and charting it with the other evidence found on the ground...along the path to where Trayvon died.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

For whatever it's worth, didn't the 13 year old's mother retain an attorney afterwards because she claimed her son repeatedly told the interviewing PO from the start that he didn't know what he saw "it was too dark," but the PO kept pressing her son for answers, and "led" him into saying what he did? ...I can't imagine anything the 13 year old said will be of value to either side.

BBM for focus: The answer is yes, according to my understanding from what I've read. But I haven't read the whole doc dump so I am way behind and could well have missed something WRT this detail.

 

[jjenny]

Didn't the 13 year old's mother retain an attorney afterwards because she claimed her son repeatedly told the interviewing PO from the start that he didn't know what he saw "it was too dark," but the PO kept pressing her son for answers, and "led" him into saying what he did? ...I can't imagine anything the 13 year old said will be of value to either side.

Yes, the mother did suggest 13 year old was led by police to pick red, but I saw 13 year old interviewed by a reporter, and when asked what the man was wearing he still said red. For whatever its worth.

 

[jjenny]

Perhaps these two saw the middle with John seeing the beginning where there was a struggle on the ground TM gets loose, for a moment GZ is alone and gets up, then the other lady sees the chase and fistfight. The keys, flashlight, TM's phone and the tan bag are found on the ground along the way to the where GZ and TM are again tussling...perhaps now for the gun. TM ends up on top and GZ shots him. That would explain the bits and pieces of each witnesses account.

Apparently, no one saw the entire A-Z event.

And what, after all that, they end up in the same place they started at? "John" saw them fight, heard the shot. He could see the body on the ground.
During 911 call, "John" correctly identified race of the dead person (which again is more than the rest of the witnesses came up with).
As far as I can tell, the lady who first said she saw chase and the fistfight, in the subsequent interview said that she only saw glances because she took her contact lenses out.
What she could have seen were people arriving on the scene.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

For whatever it's worth, didn't the 13 year old's mother retain an attorney afterwards claiming her son repeatedly told the interviewing PO from the start that he didn't know what he saw "it was too dark," but that the PO kept pressing her son for answers, and "led" him into saying what he did? ...So you're right about this particular witness, I can't imagine anything the 13 year old said being of value to either side.

The 13 yr old had a white pittbull that got off the leash somehow. Wonder if George saw it and pulled his gun since that is why he bought the gun?

 

[Just K]

For what its worth, the locations of witnesses is starting to gel. The 1st call, with the screams, at just over 4 minutes into the call, that witness said she had heard "multiple people yelling." At the beginning of that tape, if you listen closely there are two distinct voices yelling and the voices get closer right before the whining and the shot.

 

[jjenny]

The 13 yr old had a white pittbull that got off the leash somehow. Wonder if George saw it and pulled his gun since that is why he bought the gun?

I really don't know why George would be laying alone on the ground and screaming for help when 13 year old says he saw him.

 

[Just K]

And what, after all that, they end up in the same place they started at? "John" saw them fight, heard the shot. He could see the body on the ground.
During 911 call, "John" correctly identified race of the dead person (which again is more than the rest of the witnesses came up with).
As far as I can tell, the lady who first said she saw chase and the fistfight, in the subsequent interview said that she only saw glances because she took her contact lenses out.
What she could have seen were people arriving on the scene.

Right now, that is the problem. We are not privy to the location of the callers and witnesses. But something has to explain how if the contact originates in front of John's patio that the keys, flashlight, phone and tan plastic bag ended up on the ground in almost a direct line from the "T" to where Trayvon is shot.

 

[Just K]

John's story is a problem unless, he was outside watching the fight move from one location to the next.

I have had a problem with John's story since I heard the limited info on 911 to the TV interview the next day. His recorded statement also came after he spent time with officers inside the crime scene tape. He is a problem for both sides.

 

[jjenny]

Right now, that is the problem. We are not privy to the location of the callers and witnesses. But something has to explain how if the contact originates in front of John's patio that the keys, flashlight, phone and tan plastic bag ended up on the ground in almost a direct line from the "T" to where Trayvon is shot.

There is a female witness who describes seeing two men on the ground, one on top of other. While she called 911 she heard a "popping noise" she then saw a man get up, while the other person was still on the ground. So she didn't see anyone running anywhere either.

 

[jjenny]

John's story is a problem unless, he was outside watching the fight move from one location to the next.

I have had a problem with John's story since I heard the limited info on 911 to the TV interview the next day. His recorded statement also came after he spent time with officers inside the crime scene tape. He is a problem for both sides.

I don't see any indication it was moving. The two people ("John") and a female witness who saw two men appear to describe it as stationary. Both appear to be able to see it from their windows, and neither mentions anything about running.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Now this is funny. A month and a half ago I made this post. LOL LOL

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #17

Old 04-05-2012, 10:46 AM

Dr.Fessel
Registered User



and it was so light out he could see the guy on the bottom lips moving to know he was the one yelling for help but he could not see the guys face or Trayvon's hands or any part of his face to tell one was black and one was white.

Oh yeah and he saw the guy on bottom had a red sweater on which is very concerning since one of the people did have a sweater on but it was not red.

To me there appears to be a bit of tampering with that witness going on. ALL IMO

I see what you are saying, but I go with Occam's Razor on this.

I think "John" initially reported what he in complete honesty thought he heard WRT to who was yelling for help, but after logical reflection from a time distance away from the incident, realized that he might have been mistaken and couldn't say for sure one way or the other.

Nothing sinister and no evidence of tampering IMO, just human nature.