Would it have been impossible for Patsy to have been jealous of JonBenet?

[proust20]

Ironically, by the time that JB would have matured enough to win Miss America that title was greatly diminished. It was her Mommy's & Grandma's biggest dream. JB eventually may have found it outmoded like her contemporaries.

For the final assault to be staging, there'd have to be awareness of what had been happening to the girl. There is nothing about the staging, or the RN, which suggest SA. It seems unlikely that a victim of chronic SA should be subjected also to a "fake" attack during her murder; and, what purpose should that serve as nothing else points to SA? In fact JB was overdressed in undergarments which suggests the perverse but not the violent. There may have been various staging ideas, but there was a final scene in the WC. There was a decision to leave JB dressed grotesquely since she was wiped down while wearing the size 12s. She was also wrapped in the blanket which conceals as well as comforts the body. In contrast to this bizzare layering of the corpse, the Barbie nightgown is laid out on the WC floor like JB. The nightgown was not just thrown aside, as a maniacal pedophile terrorist would do, but placed purposely by JB.

Why didn't John let FW view JB on the WC floor after all the planning? Wouldn't a witness be useful? Not good enough an actor for such a tragic scene? (Patsy might have been a better 'discoverer'? An Oscar-worthy role in her hands for sure. John is at best a co-star.) Indeed JR was antsy the 26th. The RN provides the context within which the morning's events take place. Had he expected JB to have been located sooner? How many trips to the basement? Disappearing from BPD view for a good spell. Trying to fly to GA at once. Jumping the gun and heading to the remote WC when LA told him to search the house. Handing BPD the notepad? Talking about breaking the window and moving the Samsonite, when it'd have been wiser to say nothing about those things? Despite apparent anxiety, the FF's deadline came and went without reactions by either parent. It's like- Oh does anyone want some more coffee?

The paintbrush could have been utilized impulsively during a savage assault/asphyxiation in the basement? That would have the head blow later as part of the staging meant to point to intruder(s)?

 

[Secretmidnight]

Is it impossible? No.
But I don't think PR was jealous of her. She lived through her. She enjoyed the pageant scene and had a beautiful daughter to continue to live through. I believe she wouldn't harm her child out of jealousy.

I do agree this is very unlikely she would take her daughter and end her life.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Rain on my Parade,
Missed this post, sorry.


BR's touch dna might be innocent transfer that occurred during the pineapple snack?

The blood can be simply crime-scene transfer by accident, and probably is, hence the change to the Gap Top, possibly via the Turtleneck which Patsy probably wanted JR to wear fro the vacation flight?



Because when you look in the wine-cellar, you are not looking at a crime-scene, you are viewing the remnants of a prior staging whose changeover was never concluded, hence the requirement to have, effectively in everything but name, a forensic dump site. Just think Partially Opened Gifts and Burke's alleged Birthday gifts, opened of course.

The nightgown was found and not the size-6 underwear because two different people were involved at different points in time. So the size-6 underwear was disappeared as this aspect did not fit into the revised staging.


The interstate flight was JR's getaway plan.

Regardless of who actually killed JonBenet there was enough evidence available to show all three remaining Ramsey's colluded in JonBenet's postmortem staging, so JR thought let's get out of town?

The case could be JDI, meaning the inept staging is deliberate, e.g. BR's long johns, Patsy's niece's size-12 Bloomingdale's underwear, along with some kind of staged SA using the paintbrush handle?

Personally I don't buy it, but who can tell?

IMO, someone, as per Coroner Meyer's verbatim statement Digitally Penetrated JonBenet. He described this as Sexual Contact, which edges out framing the assault as staging?

This suggests a scenario where some kind of postmortem ritualized Sexual Assault took place?

Part of the corroborating evidence is the splinter of cellulose left inside JonBenet, which Coroner Meyer did his best to avoid revealing by describing it as birefringement foreign material


JonBenet Autopsy Report, Excerpt


12-29-1996 Search Warrant for 755 15th Street, Excerpt


Pefect Murder Perfect Town - Part Three: Stories within Stories, Chapter Six


You can just as easily arrive a conclusion that the SA via the paintbrush is staging, but why then bother redressing JonBenet in size-12's and Burke's long johns, particularly if the idea is to stage a SA?

.

UKGuy,
Wow, I thought I replied to this. Apparently not.

BR's touch dna might be innocent transfer that occurred during the pineapple snack?

Okay, but for this to be true then why was his touch dna also found on the inside bottom of the gown!

The blood can be simply crime-scene transfer by accident, and probably is, hence the change to the Gap Top, possibly via the Turtleneck which Patsy probably wanted JR to wear fro the vacation flight?

This is great! Makes total sense in the round about way. As the story unfolds according to the R’s JB arrived home zonked out asleep and didn’t waken. The gap top stayed on her and was never changed. I like your story better. It fits a little clearer picture, but then when do those pink pajamas bottoms come into play?

The nightgown was found and not the size-6 underwear because two different people were involved at different points in time. So the size-6 underwear was disappeared as this aspect did not fit into the revised staging.

Again, what about the pink pajamas bottoms. Do we deduce that they disappeared at the same time as the size 6 underwear? This would make a clear picture of the American girl doll being stuffed. Yet, we both know the size 12’s weren’t in JB panty drawer.

The interstate flight was JR's getaway plan.

Regardless of who actually killed JonBenet there was enough evidence available to show all three remaining Ramsey's colluded in JonBenet's postmortem staging, so JR thought let's get out of town?

The case could be JDI, meaning the inept staging is deliberate, e.g. BR's long johns, Patsy's niece's size-12 Bloomingdale's underwear, along with some kind of staged SA using the paintbrush handle?

Personally I don't buy it, but who can tell?

The get out of town card IMO, was to get to Lucinda but why is the big question. I have always found it bazaar that JR and PR tossed their friends aside yet rushed to be by his ex wife’s side? Not just JR but PR as well.

I agree with you, I don’t think it was JDI either but he knew coming UP those stairs from searching for JB something wasn’t right in Denmark. He knew long before this knowing was let out.

Again, sorry for the oversight on your reply.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Wow, I thought I replied to this. Apparently not.



Okay, but for this to be true then why was his touch dna also found on the inside bottom of the gown!



This is great! Makes total sense in the round about way. As the story unfolds according to the R’s JB arrived home zonked out asleep and didn’t waken. The gap top stayed on her and was never changed. I like your story better. It fits a little clearer picture, but then when do those pink pajamas bottoms come into play?



Again, what about the pink pajamas bottoms. Do we deduce that they disappeared at the same time as the size 6 underwear? This would make a clear picture of the American girl doll being stuffed. Yet, we both know the size 12’s weren’t in JB panty drawer.



The get out of town card IMO, was to get to Lucinda but why is the big question. I have always found it bazaar that JR and PR tossed their friends aside yet rushed to be by his ex wife’s side? Not just JR but PR as well.

I agree with you, I don’t think it was JDI either but he knew coming UP those stairs from searching for JB something wasn’t right in Denmark. He knew long before this knowing was let out.

Again, sorry for the oversight on your reply.

Rain on my Parade,

Okay, but for this to be true then why was his touch dna also found on the inside bottom of the gown!

It might be cross-transfer or direct deposit during the pineapple snack, i.e. we do not know how JonBenet was dressed at this point. Bottom line is BR's dna match is not a smoking gun.

This is great! Makes total sense in the round about way. As the story unfolds according to the R’s JB arrived home zonked out asleep and didn’t waken. The gap top stayed on her and was never changed. I like your story better. It fits a little clearer picture, but then when do those pink pajamas bottoms come into play?

Common sense, remember that, suggests JonBenet was prepared for bed, including having her hair dressed, ponytails, etc and wearing her pink pajama set, i.e. no extra effort for Patsy.

The rest of the redressing is probably staging by different people and will depend on your favorite theory.

So since I lean towards BDI, I'll say Burke, then Patsy then John could have redressed JonBenet.

Again, what about the pink pajamas bottoms. Do we deduce that they disappeared at the same time as the size 6 underwear? This would make a clear picture of the American girl doll being stuffed. Yet, we both know the size 12’s weren’t in JB panty drawer.

Yes, I would opt for the pajama bottoms to vanish along with the rest of the size-12's.

The pink pajama bottoms wouldbe removed because they held semen or blood deposits, thus indicating a specific sequence of for the assaults?

Age wise BR was nominally prepubertal, but his actual status may have been ongoing early puberty, so semen issue could have occurred?

If the size-12's are not in her underwear drawer then this is because, despite Patsy's claims, they were never there in the first place.

So you can rule Patsy's version of events out.

That leaves either JR or BR to redress and remove the size-6 underwear?

Now similar to Patsy's claims, why would JR redress JonBenet in the size-12's then remove both the allegedly bloodstained size-6 and the remaining brand new size-12 underwear, thus leaving JR in the same situation as Patsy, i.e. nothing to corroborate from where they originated?.

I reckon this duality was the inspiration behind the investigator's question to Patsy regarding did she think the intruder brought the size-12's with him? i.e. was this a predetermined part of the parents staging?

As per Sherlock Holmes, once you eliminate the impossible, etc.

Here what remains is BR redressing JonBenet and removing the pajama bottoms along with the size-6 and size-12 underwear?

Burke was patently not thinking clearly here, but more forensically minded, as he thinks his fingerprints will be on the size-12's packaging along with any semen, or bloodstains on the size-6 underwear?

Not just JR but PR as well.

At this point PR was likely playing follow my leader with JR?

I agree with you, I don’t think it was JDI either but he knew coming UP those stairs from searching for JB something wasn’t right in Denmark. He knew long before this knowing was let out.

For the above reasons alone I rule out JR.

Yet I reckon he and Patsy revised BR's amateurish staged crime-scene to that of the kidnapping scenario.

So JonBenet could have been moved from her bedroom down to the basement and as she lay outside the wine-cellar involuntarly deposited urine on the carpet, possibly the same in her bed?

The red flag at this juncture is Fleet White not finding what he was looking for despite possible urine and decomposing scent along with an evident White blanket, etc.

Suggesting JonBenet had been hidden elsewhere then moved to the wine-cellar by JR to allow him to find her?

John was wanting to leave ASAP and knew if he never found JonBenet they would be forced to stay put and embedded along with JonBenet secreted away.

So he moved her after Fleet White had looked in and he had gone missing mid-morning?


.

 

[proust20]

Part of the redressing involved the size 12s being pulled down in order to wipe JB after she died. This action is difficult to assign to Burke. The staging involved eradication as well as addition. The long johns and size 12s do not mesh with the FF fantasy.

 

[BeachSky]

The staging..
It’s right up there with dismembering a family member IMO .
What they did, the horror to save themselves.

 

[BeachSky]

As I see it, there are only three persons with potential first-hand knowledge as to what happened to JonBenet Ramsey: those three present when her death occured, John, Patsy and Burke.

I tend to believe that Burke was in fact asleep when JonBenet died and was anyway too young and impressionable to make sense of the things happening around him when he awoke. By now he must have an inkling though.

Patsy is no longer alive. So that leaves John as the only one left with first-hand knowledge, the only one who really knows what happened and he's not talking.

So if it was Patsy, we wouldn't necessarily know about it. It's entirely possible to keep that secret and take it to the grave.

respectfully bbm
yes , sadly shades of Robert Wagner…

MOO

 

[Stevem3]

Would it have been impossible for Patsy to have been jealous of JonBenet?

I have considered that she did murder to be get attention. Certainly the case did bring a huge amount of attention. The ransom note was dramatic, the manner of death dramatic. She called over friends right away. She was a person that sought attention throughout her life with beauty pageants, opening her home to tours, pushing her daughter early in beauty pageants. The fact that it was Christmas adds even more drama. I could very well have been a well planned crime.

Not the same but similar to Munchausen by proxy -- which is a psychological disorder marked by attention-seeking behavior by a caregiver through those who are in their care. Seemingly normal people that have this condition harm their children.

 

[icedtea4me]

I have considered that she did murder to be get attention. Certainly the case did bring a huge amount of attention. The ransom note was dramatic, the manner of death dramatic. She called over friends right away. She was a person that sought attention throughout her life with beauty pageants, opening her home to tours, pushing her daughter early in beauty pageants. The fact that it was Christmas adds even more drama. I could very well have been a well planned crime.

Not the same but similar to Munchausen by proxy -- which is a psychological disorder marked by attention-seeking behavior by a caregiver through those who are in their care. Seemingly normal people that have this condition harm their children.

I agree with Patsy doing the murder, or at least assisting, to get attention, but I don't think it was pre-planned on a knowing, conscious level. This is from her 1996 Xmas letter: I spend most of my 'free time' working in the school and doing volunteer work. The Charlevoix house was on the home tour in July and will likely appear in one of the Better Homes & Gardens publications in 1997. On a recent trip to NYC, my friend and I appeared amid the throng of fans on the TODAY show. Al Roker & Bryant actually talked to us and we were on camera for a few fleeting moments!

1996christmasnewsletter.htm

She was certainly in a lot of magazines and on tv in 1997, wasn't she?

 

[permento]

The only thing I can see her being upset about is the bed wetting. Patsy wanted her to SHINE. I don't see jealousy as a factor when it comes to Patsy. Otherwise she wouldn't put her in pageants for all to see. She'd not relish in the wins. If she was a teen and was actually coming on to her daddy... then yes jealousy. In this instance though she was far to young to be jealous of in the way you ask your question Tea. It would be quite the opposite actually. She'd protect her if she knew.

!

 

[neesaki]

I think she may have had a pang of jealously on occassions, but I think the pageants were as much for Patsy than they were Jonbenet, perhaps even more so - she got to carry on with the whole scene, mix with the other mothers and be proud and show off about her beautiful daughter. I don't think jealiusy had anything to do with her murder, if it was Patsy (and I genuinely am undeicded on this one, I'm 50/50 between her and Burke) to me it would have been a rage thing after a long stressful build up to Christmas and the day, the thought of an early flight in the morning, and her just snapping when Jonbenet wet the bed again

I have once knew a woman who was jealous of her daughter. It was obvious….On one hand, she criticized her, and exaggerated her flaws, while also emotionally and physically abusing her.
On the other hand, she lived through her daughter, via her achievements. This woman was a pathological liar, had delusions of grandeur. We eventually realized she was a very disturbed person who was mentally ill. To me, PR reminds me very much of her.

 

[ashhouston]

the mom loved her dont think she would ever hurt her the dad's a bit cold but I dont think him the brother maybe just because that note looked like a juveniles ramblings on what he would think was a good randsome note to leave. plenty of cases of sibblings killing another sibbling it's even in the bible thats how long sibblings have murdered one another. sad

 

[neesaki]

the mom loved her dont think she would ever hurt her the dad's a bit cold but I dont think him the brother maybe just because that note looked like a juveniles ramblings on what he would think was a good randsome note to leave. plenty of cases of sibblings killing another sibbling it's even in the bible thats how long sibblings have murdered one another. sad

I would love to read this, but it gives me a headache to read posts without any punctuation. I just can’t. Much obliged.

 

[insearchoflight]

My theory is that jealousy was the motive for the murder. SA by a family member and jealousy surrounding that.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I have considered that she did murder to be get attention. Certainly the case did bring a huge amount of attention. The ransom note was dramatic, the manner of death dramatic. She called over friends right away. She was a person that sought attention throughout her life with beauty pageants, opening her home to tours, pushing her daughter early in beauty pageants. The fact that it was Christmas adds even more drama. I could very well have been a well planned crime.

Not the same but similar to Munchausen by proxy -- which is a psychological disorder marked by attention-seeking behavior by a caregiver through those who are in their care. Seemingly normal people that have this condition harm their children.

Hi, I'm new to commenting on this forum but been reading / lurking for a long time.

I doubt the point made here that PR would murder for attention. JBR was her 'cash cow' and she was living vicariously through her and forcing her will on the child so I doubt she would have killed off her energetic lifeline. JBR was too young to have started breaking free and going her own way, which would be the biggest psychological threat to such a dynamic.

JMO but 90% sure PR wrote the note - can't even begin to imagine how people suspect BR could have written it, even if he was a savant it's got too many elements for a child to be aware of.

Sincerely doubt PR perpetrated murder and my personal suspicion is some form of near fatal accidental wounding occurred, possibly done in flared temper or rage but without intent to murder. Maybe whoever did it knew it was an extremely serious head injury which prompted them to finish the job off out of fear JBR would speak out to authorities, and then huge slightly chaotic and insane intense family staged cover up and fake kidnapping idea plus intention to flee by plane. Had the police had the powers to separate them and hold and interviewed them immediately, it would be a very different outcome IMO.

I'm so suspicious of the pervy Santa neighbour and his wife who wrote the play about the murdered girl.

 

[BarbieBeast666]

OldBackStop,
PR could have been living vicariously through JB and she could have also been jealous of her.

Exactly! People U need 2 realize it will not/is not a simple black or white situation your dealing with here. If she was infact vicariously living through Jonbenet but started to get jealous of jonbenet as she got older and prettier and won more titles, then she could have been trying to reckon with herself over her jealousy (if she had a heart & was a good mother). And if she then started to struggle with that jealousy, than it would just fuel her vanity fire and YES it would be pointed at Jonbenet. Especially if John was abusing Jonbenet!

 

[ilovewings]

I don't believe we will ever find out who killed that poor little girl. I just can not believe that it was the mother. And she is dead now, so we will never find out. I can't help but think that the case was bungled from the very beginning by Bolder Police Department, so badly bungled that it can not be recovered. RIP Jon Benet Ramsey.

I tend to agree with you.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Exactly! People U need 2 realize it will not/is not a simple black or white situation you’re dealing with here. If she was infact vicariously living through Jonbenet but started to get jealous of jonbenet as she got older and prettier and won more titles, then she could have been trying to reckon with herself over her jealousy (if she had a heart & was a good mother). And if she then started to struggle with that jealousy, then it would just fuel her vanity fire and YES it would be pointed at Jonbenet. Especially if John was abusing Jonbenet!

Absolutely. JR was known for his extra marital affairs. He did not accompany PR during her treatments for cancer (Caring)?
PR even discussed JR sexual requests w/her housekeeper. It has also been said that he kept a letter he wrote to Beth, pictures, etc. of her. He had a picture of her in his bathroom. Even though he had another daughter Melinda. Wonder what that was all about? Yes, Beth dies in a car crash but JB was murdered. He probably has pictures of JB as well but seems to play the victim in her death. Odd, indeed.
And of coarse PR could have been very jealous of JB. I am speaking from experience here. My father abused me and my mom was jealous of me. Such a sad situation.

 

[WildWest]

JonBenet Ramsey case: Newly unearthed documents reveal DNA did not match key players early in unsolved slaying

Unearthed documents from early in the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation show DNA evidence recovered under her fingernails and clothes was not a match for members of the family and others close to the case just weeks after the crime.

www.foxnews.com

 

[ilovewings]

JonBenet Ramsey case: Newly unearthed documents reveal DNA did not match key players early in unsolved slaying

Unearthed documents from early in the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation show DNA evidence recovered under her fingernails and clothes was not a match for members of the family and others close to the case just weeks after the crime.

www.foxnews.com

I watched a program about this case last week- and came to the conclusion that Jon Benet was murdered by an intruder. I think Detective Smits was correct in his assessment of this case. Additionally, I feel strongly that the Police in this case focused solely on the parents to the exclusion of almost all others- they were like a dog with a bone. It was horrible and painful to think about what the parents have endured at the hands of a detective (Steve Thomas I believe is his name) all of these years. He refused to consider other suspects---The inability to match the DNA to the parents or Burke for that matter, is the cherry on the cake. This case took on a life of its own and the public became like a mob, lining up behind the police and condemning the parents-- oh, did I mention, as we all know, that the police botched the initial investigation.

I don't believe this case will be solved and many many people will continue to believe the parents killed their child.

Just my 2 cents