Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California, #3

[LuckyLucy2]

No, there were several items in the crime scene that contained "mixed" DNA not belonging to Rebecca. As for items left behind, no one said the killers were geniuses. They were likely panicked, afraid of being caught and some may have been under the influence. JMO. My personal opinion has been that one of the reasons someone in the Shacknai family called attorney (and former county prosecutor) Paul Pfingst to have him rush over to the mansion and ensure there was no evidence on hand. It appears he may have been escorted out before he could collect all of it. JMO.

IMO, that makes even less sense - the killers were "under the influence", but managed to pull off the perfect murder? Not logical.

Paul Pfingst, was only in the front yard, behind the crime tape. Big deal. He never represented anyone, as Adam declined to have an attorney. Pfingst was never in the house. Do you have a link that shows he was in the bedroom, collecting evidence? AFAIK, that is not true.

The small amount of mixed DNA was too low to interupt. If it had been fresh, from that late evening or early morning, it could have been read. The only readable DNA came from Rebecca and was even found on the INSIDE of the knots - proving she tied them.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

Here is a diagram of her head injuries that is to scale. Cynic's diagram is NOT to scale. As you can see, the injuries were not significant, just like the Medical Examiner that did her autopsy noted. I believe she either got them after she jumped, or when she was tying the rope to the bed frame.

View attachment 78321

Where did you find this diagram? Sorry, but Cynic's is more accurate, IMO. How did all four of them get there? Impossible they were from the fall. With the victim's hands a feet bound, there would be no flailing around. Just a straight fall over the railing. If RZ fell face forward, it would have been her face that was injured, not the side of her head.


The two separate ligature marks certainly were not a "red flag" to the 15 detectives or the ME that investigated her death and ruled it a suicide.


Police usually closely investigate a hanging when victim's show other injuries, like head wounds, bruising on the arms and elsewhere. Here's an example of a murder where police reconstructed the hanging after finding bruising on the victim's body

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1335318/Nurses-strangling-was-disguised-to-look-like-suicide-inquest-told.html

Here's an article on a forensic web site that discusses things to look for in the case of a suspicious hanging.

http://forensicoutreach.com/how-to-tell-the-difference-between-a-hanging-and-a-murder-that-looks-like-one/

The clues to Rebecca's murder staged as a hanging, IMO:

The four head wounds with bruising prior to death
The presence of her blood in areas away from the scene of the hanging (hallway and bathroom)
Signs of a struggle in the death room - an overturned chair, items strewn about on the floor
Bound hands and feet using unusual nautical knots
Noose tied in a highly unusual knot used for securing large boats to bollards (tugboat hitch knot)
Defensive wounds and fresh bruising on her hands, fingers, arms, head and elsewhere
Little disturbance of dust on the balcony railing and no verified footprints belonging to RZ
Victim was nude - highly unusual
No plausible motive for suicide, but strong motive for murder

Any one or two of the above should have been enough for SDSO to stage a re-enactment of the death, examine evidence further and submit witnesses to polygraph examinations.

JMO

 

[justice be served]

You have no evidence to suggest that Adam, Dina, or Nina were anywhere around when Rebecca tied the shirt around her neck. None. Only Rebecca was in the room and on the balcony.

View attachment 78320

Snipped for breavity.

Per your own bolded comment, you are correct that no one was at the murder scene other than the three many people believe are the perpetrators - Dina, Nina, Adam. However, showing proof of where at least Dina was during the murder is something she will need to do because of this lawsuit. What's the hold up Dina?

Dina is REQUIRED to give proof of where she was and, so far, she has not been forthcoming in doing so. Remember that the burden of proof is much lower in a WDS.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Snipped for breavity.

Per your own bolded comment, you are correct that no one was at the murder scene other than the three many people believe are the perpetrators - Dina, Nina, Adam. However, showing proof of where at least Dina was during the murder is something she will need to do because of this lawsuit. What's the hold up Dina?

Dina is REQUIRED to give proof of where she was and, so far, she has not been forthcoming in doing so. Remember that the burden of proof is much lower in a WDS.

What I said was that the three were never in that room, balcony, or courtyard, and there is no evidence that proves they were. Please don't try to twist my words.

We are not at that point in the case yet. Just wait for it. I'm sure the nurses that were with Dina at Max's death bed at Rady's are under HIPAA laws and will testify when deposed by the court - not in the media or on the pages of Web Sleuths.

And it is up to the Zahaus' to prove the three are GUILTY, remember, defendants are considered innocent until PROVEN guilty - even in a Civil Case for $$$$. The Zahaus have no evidence - physical or circumstantial - because their sister committed suicide and was never murdered.

JMO

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Where did you find this diagram? Sorry, but Cynic's is more accurate, IMO. How did all four of them get there? Impossible they were from the fall. With the victim's hands a feet bound, there would be no flailing around. Just a straight fall over the railing. If RZ fell face forward, it would have been her face that was injured, not the side of her head.

Police usually closely investigate a hanging when victim's show other injuries, like head wounds, bruising on the arms and elsewhere. Here's an example of a murder where police reconstructed the hanging after finding bruising on the victim's body

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1335318/Nurses-strangling-was-disguised-to-look-like-suicide-inquest-told.html

Here's an article on a forensic web site that discusses things to look for in the case of a suspicious hanging.

http://forensicoutreach.com/how-to-tell-the-difference-between-a-hanging-and-a-murder-that-looks-like-one/

The clues to Rebecca's murder staged as a hanging, IMO:

The four head wounds with bruising prior to death
The presence of her blood in areas away from the scene of the hanging (hallway and bathroom)
Signs of a struggle in the death room - an overturned chair, items strewn about on the floor
Bound hands and feet using unusual nautical knots
Noose tied in a highly unusual knot used for securing large boats to bollards (tugboat hitch knot)
Defensive wounds and fresh bruising on her hands, fingers, arms, head and elsewhere
Little disturbance of dust on the balcony railing and no verified footprints belonging to RZ
Victim was nude - highly unusual
No plausible motive for suicide, but strong motive for murder

Any one or two of the above should have been enough for SDSO to stage a re-enactment of the death, examine evidence further and submit witnesses to polygraph examinations.

JMO

All one has to do is get a tape measure to see that the diagram I posted is to scale, and Cynic's is not. I love it when a FACT is so easy to prove. In fact, his diagram is very misleading, as is his diagram of her back injuries.

Rebecca could have easily gotten the bruises while swinging into the tree after she jumped. I would imaging she swung around for a few minutes, at least.

I also would imagine the 15 detectives that investigated Rebecca's are aware of the information you posted, however, they still concluded that it was a sucide and that no one else was involved in her death.

Nothing that you mentioned in your list could not have happened in a suicide. In fact, it did, because that is what happened. And the knots were slip knots, not tug boat hitches. That is in the ME report.

I happen to think there is plenty of motive for SUICIDE, and almost none for murder.

The detectives did, too.

 

[Betty P]

Another thing that has always puzzled me is how Rebecca ended up with rather large abrasions and a large contusion on her legs and, especially, on her ankle in an area that was covered by the rope binding?


http://i42.tinypic.com/126dwnp.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/bi1105.jpg

RZ's legs from the front, showing a subcutaneous hemorrhage on her shin

http://i42.tinypic.com/126dwnp.jpg

Bruising and bleeding don't occur once a person is deceased.

So many unanswered questions in this investigation. So much analysis that was never done, including the obvious failure to reconstruct the hanging.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Still, no evidence for murder. Plenty for suicide.

Besides, we don't know everything they analyzed. The files have never been released, so how do you know what was "never done"?

http://sdsheriff.net/coronado/

 

[*Lash*]

I've been looking over older links and found a few of Valhall's posts on this case. What an amazing woman, I love her ability to see things that just don't make sense. In my opinion, below are examples of a few details that will need to be explained if the case makes it to trial.

Credit Valhall - Hinky Meter 10/2/2011

Anywho, so she’s either naked or she’s not and she scrawls this message with acrylic paint blobbed onto the end of a paintbrush. Then while she’s figuring out how to do all that cleat hitch bindy stuff on her wrists, pull her hand back out do other stuff and then stick her hand back in...behind her back, she accidentally touches her left nipple area. Okay, that might be doable. She’s right handed she’s slipping a noose over her neck, wrapping a t-shirt around that and accidentally brushes her right hand against her left breast leaving the black paint mark near her left nipple. The autopsy report states she had black paint on her right hand (ring fingernail, BASE of index finger, and a large area, 2 x 1 inch, at the base of her right thumb – which, if you look at the paintbrush, I’d like you to explain why an artist would get all this paint all over her. The crime scene photograph of the big paintbrush used to write the message does not show a big blobby mess of paint all over the handle of the brush.)

But why the black paint near the right nipple area? That’s a little more difficult to come up with. There’s no paint on the left hand, so thi took a rather awkward movement to end up touching her right breast in the nipple area, and quite frankly I can’t even come up with what she’d be doing at that point to cause this. The only time I can come up with a reasonable scenario for this paint smudge on her right nipple area would be when messing with the blue t-shirt and wrapping it around her ligature. However, the autopsy report makes no mention of black paint on the blue t-shirt, so that kind of rules out her being able to smudge her right breast when messing with the blue t-shirt.

In fact, there isn’t any black paint on the ankle bindings, or the ligature itself. The only two places that paint is described on the rope is in the middle binding of the wrist bindings, on the left wrist and on the 22 inch segment of the rope that extends from the knot of the ligature around her neck. (Please note that some readers have misinterpreted this portion of the autopsy report. The 22 inches is not the part of the rope that formerly attached to the rope she was hung from and led to the bed frame. The 22 inch segment of rope is the “tail” from the knot itself. In other words, it comes straight out of the knot and is not part of the ligature.)

Now, there are six loops around the left wrist so the “middle” would be the 3rd or 4th loop around the left wrist. Why (or better yet “how” ) would she get black paint on the 3rd or 4th wrap around her left wrist and not get it on the first, second, or maybe third? And if you go back and watch Ms. LE Bind-myself’s demonstration, how did she bind her wrists at all without brushing her right hand against her left hand and getting paint on it?

And how the heck did she not get any paint on the ankle bindings or the blue t-shirt? Are we to believe that she bound her wrists first, removed her right hand, somehow managed to keep the cleat hitch binding from getting all gimped up while she then bound her ankles virtually one-handed? I mean at some point you have to give the explanation that either the excess paint had already been wiped off on other items, or it had begun to dry and therefore didn’t transfer to the ankle bindings.

OR, are we to believe she bound her ankles first, THEN PAINTED THE DOOR (nude and ankle bound), and then bound her wrists? Wouldn’t she have to wrap the blue t-shirt around her neck first before binding her wrists, so wouldn’t the blue t-shirt have a MUCH larger probability of having black paint on it? It has more surface area and is more absorbent than the rope, right? And how did she put the ligature around her neck and not get any paint on it, but end up getting it on the “knot tail”?

Could it be that the paint on the knot tail was transferred to the tail when it brushed against Rebecca’s right hand after she was bound? It’s definitely long enough to reach her hands behind her back and especially when the ligature has been placed loosely around her neck and before she goes over the railing to draw it tight.

And why are there black-paint fingerprint smudges all over the trash bag but SDSO never said anything about the fingerprints found on the bag?

So many questions...so many loose ends.

 

[kimi_SFC]

I've been looking over older links and found a few of Valhall's posts on this case. What an amazing woman, I love her ability to see things that just don't make sense. In my opinion, below are examples of a few details that will need to be explained if the case makes it to trial.

Credit Valhall - Hinky Meter 10/2/2011

Anywho, so she’s either naked or she’s not and she scrawls this message with acrylic paint blobbed onto the end of a paintbrush. Then while she’s figuring out how to do all that cleat hitch bindy stuff on her wrists, pull her hand back out do other stuff and then stick her hand back in...behind her back, she accidentally touches her left nipple area. Okay, that might be doable. She’s right handed she’s slipping a noose over her neck, wrapping a t-shirt around that and accidentally brushes her right hand against her left breast leaving the black paint mark near her left nipple. The autopsy report states she had black paint on her right hand (ring fingernail, BASE of index finger, and a large area, 2 x 1 inch, at the base of her right thumb – which, if you look at the paintbrush, I’d like you to explain why an artist would get all this paint all over her. The crime scene photograph of the big paintbrush used to write the message does not show a big blobby mess of paint all over the handle of the brush.)

But why the black paint near the right nipple area? That’s a little more difficult to come up with. There’s no paint on the left hand, so thi took a rather awkward movement to end up touching her right breast in the nipple area, and quite frankly I can’t even come up with what she’d be doing at that point to cause this. The only time I can come up with a reasonable scenario for this paint smudge on her right nipple area would be when messing with the blue t-shirt and wrapping it around her ligature. However, the autopsy report makes no mention of black paint on the blue t-shirt, so that kind of rules out her being able to smudge her right breast when messing with the blue t-shirt.

In fact, there isn’t any black paint on the ankle bindings, or the ligature itself. The only two places that paint is described on the rope is in the middle binding of the wrist bindings, on the left wrist and on the 22 inch segment of the rope that extends from the knot of the ligature around her neck. (Please note that some readers have misinterpreted this portion of the autopsy report. The 22 inches is not the part of the rope that formerly attached to the rope she was hung from and led to the bed frame. The 22 inch segment of rope is the “tail” from the knot itself. In other words, it comes straight out of the knot and is not part of the ligature.)

Now, there are six loops around the left wrist so the “middle” would be the 3rd or 4th loop around the left wrist. Why (or better yet “how” ) would she get black paint on the 3rd or 4th wrap around her left wrist and not get it on the first, second, or maybe third? And if you go back and watch Ms. LE Bind-myself’s demonstration, how did she bind her wrists at all without brushing her right hand against her left hand and getting paint on it?

And how the heck did she not get any paint on the ankle bindings or the blue t-shirt? Are we to believe that she bound her wrists first, removed her right hand, somehow managed to keep the cleat hitch binding from getting all gimped up while she then bound her ankles virtually one-handed? I mean at some point you have to give the explanation that either the excess paint had already been wiped off on other items, or it had begun to dry and therefore didn’t transfer to the ankle bindings.

OR, are we to believe she bound her ankles first, THEN PAINTED THE DOOR (nude and ankle bound), and then bound her wrists? Wouldn’t she have to wrap the blue t-shirt around her neck first before binding her wrists, so wouldn’t the blue t-shirt have a MUCH larger probability of having black paint on it? It has more surface area and is more absorbent than the rope, right? And how did she put the ligature around her neck and not get any paint on it, but end up getting it on the “knot tail”?

Could it be that the paint on the knot tail was transferred to the tail when it brushed against Rebecca’s right hand after she was bound? It’s definitely long enough to reach her hands behind her back and especially when the ligature has been placed loosely around her neck and before she goes over the railing to draw it tight.

And why are there black-paint fingerprint smudges all over the trash bag but SDSO never said anything about the fingerprints found on the bag?

So many questions...so many loose ends.

Oh Valhall, how I love thee!!!!
(And *Lash* for combing THM archives to bring this post over here to this thread. It is worth reading a few times, because it is so-well written. The loose ends were never truly addressed.
As we used to say (and in this case it's an understatement:
"Something's just not right."

:loveyou: both!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[*Lash*]

The gag: we have only Adam's word that he pulled it out to do CPR. Some say easily spit out? How would we ever know that to be the case since the gag was not in her mouth when the first responders arrived?

A person would not scream as they were hanging. No point for Rebecca to gag herself as I seriously doubt a person would put a gag in their mouth to prevent themselves from screaming as they were slowly suffocating. I'd love to hear from an expert, but my guess is that there would be no air and the airway too restricted.

IMO, one of the three accused would have stuffed the shirt in Rebecca's mouth to keep her quiet. We can agree that a gag was stuffed in her mouth to prevent screaming. To me the most reasonable reason would be that it wasn't Rebecca, it was someone else trying to prevent the screams. Take it a step further, neighbors heard screams. Makes perfect, rational, sense that one of the three poi shoved a gag in Rebecca's mouth to prevent further screaming.

BBM - Exactly my point or Val's point . So much of the suicide conclusion from the 15 detectives was based on speculation.

 

[Betty P]

Thanks, Lash, for bringing Val's analysis back into this thread. There's so much packed into her analysis that raises doubts about suicide vs. murder. From your post:

The crime scene photograph of the big paintbrush used to write the message does not show a big blobby mess of paint all over the handle of the brush.)

How does someone smear paint around the crime scene without getting some on the paintbrush handle?

How does a victim get paint on the outside of the outside of their hand bindings, but not on the outside of their ankle bindings?

How does a victim get paint on the trailing end of the noose rope, but not on foot bindings?

One explanation is that a person painted the message on the door, then daubed paint on the victim's hands, hand bindings noose rope and other areas to make it appear she painted the message herself. The other possibility is that person got paint on their hands from handling the tube of paint and wiped it off on the bag, bindings and RZ's body while handling her.

JMO

 

[kittychi]

What I said was that the three were never in that room, balcony, or courtyard, and there is no evidence that proves they were. Please don't try to twist my words.

We are not at that point in the case yet. Just wait for it. I'm sure the nurses that were with Dina at Max's death bed at Rady's are under HIPAA laws and will testify when deposed by the court - not in the media or on the pages of Web Sleuths.

And it is up to the Zahaus' to prove the three are GUILTY, remember, defendants are considered innocent until PROVEN guilty - even in a Civil Case for $$$$. The Zahaus have no evidence - physical or circumstantial - because their sister committed suicide and was never murdered.

JMO

BBM: Not so sure about that. The HIPAA laws would apply to Max's medical records..."Hipaa protects the privacy of individually identifiable health information." I don't think we are asking anything about Max's medical situation at the time. We are asking where Dina was.

Since we haven't seen the tapes or heard even hearsay reports from anyone (except Dina herself) who said they saw her at Rady's, I personally do not believe she was there during the times in question. There is a reason, IMO, that we haven't heard about any witness statements or testimony and it is not because they are waiting to be deposed. IMO its because there aren't any. Dina's claim is hearsay.

This is the reason, IMO, that the Zahaus are moving forward with this lawsuit, having had a chance to review the Rady's tapes. IMO they know there are no witnesses.

IMO If there was ANY proof that Dina was at Rady's during the times in question, the Zahaus would know that Dina was nowhere near Spreckels at the time of Rebecca's death and there would be no law suit. What would be the point?

Sorry, but as it stands, information that the Zahaus have places Dina at Spreckels participating in a murder.

 

[screecher]

Exactly, kittychi.

 

[*Lash*]

New state entry -

#210 - 07/17/2015

Ex Parte scheduled for 07/22/2015 at 08:45:00 AM at Central in C-69 Katherine Bacal.

Case Number:
37-2013-00075418-CU-PO-CTL

https://roa.sdcourt.ca.gov/roa/

 

[screecher]

hmm...wonder who is asking for the Ex Parte. Guess we learn on Wednesday. Thanks *Lash*.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I happen to think there is plenty of motive for SUICIDE, and almost none for murder.

The detectives did, too.

Seriously? You have repeatedly stated that you believe Max died due to Rebecca's negligence. I'm pretty sure there is no bigger motive for murder than thinking someone is responsible for the death of your only son.

 

[justice be served]

seriously? You have repeatedly stated that you believe max died due to rebecca's negligence. I'm pretty sure there is no bigger motive for murder than thinking someone is responsible for the death of your only son.

amen!!!

 

[IQuestion]

The Medical Examiner that autopsied her body does not agree with Wecht. Wecht also said Whitney Hoston's death was a murder, when, in fact, it was a suicde.???

IMO, Wecht says what he is paid to say.???

???
BBM and ???by me as well.
Just a quick note because I hate to see incorrect information passed on as "fact"...when it is not FACT. Whitney Houston's death was ruled as "ACCIDENTAL DROWNING."
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...tney-houstons-death-ruled-accidental-drowning
Dr. Wecht's comments were based on the strangeness of a woman drowning in a hotel room while it was occupied by several people and he did not examine her body. And, I don't believe he was privy to the full toxicology results or underlying health conditions when he made that statement. (AND NOT A PAID OPINION) However, he was privy to a lot of information on Rebecca's case and performed the 2nd autopsy.
If it is truly believed medical professionals ARE PAID TO SAY WHAT THEY SAY.... Then I imagine we should all take, with a grain of salt, the conclusions of everyone associated with RZ's and MS's cases, who received compensation. I would take that to include all of the professionals hired by Mrs. Shacknai, as well??? Shall we surmise the opinions of Bove and Melinek are also "purchased opinions"??? Again, I only point this out in the pursuit of parity and coequality.
Going further with this train of thought...if the nurses at Rady's are paid to care for their patients, it would be quite a stretch to assume their compensation hinged on keeping track of the comings and goings of the patient's parents, too. I don't think the nurses will be very good alibi witnesses because all the plaintiff's attorneys have to ask is, "Are you paid to keep track of the parents and visitors of the patients?" "Isn't it your primary duty to care for the patient and log vitals into the charts?" And, "If you watched Mrs. Shacknai, every minute she was at the hospital, can you tell us when the photographs of her son were taken?" Simply noting a parent was present at the beginning of a 10 hour shift, does not mean the parent could not have left the hospital for 3 to 6 hours, and then be noted as being present at the end of the shift. Now that I think about it.....the nurses will only report on what they are paid to do....provide for the well-being of the patient. PERIOD. After all, that IS what they are paid to do. The only consistent source of info will be from the security videos.

 

[kittychi]

Seriously? You have repeatedly stated that you believe Max died due to Rebecca's negligence. I'm pretty sure there is no bigger motive for murder than thinking someone is responsible for the death of your only son.

Then after the fact, beyond the negligence claim, the accusation has been made that Rebecca intentionally killed Max.

 

[kittychi]

IMO DS blaming Rebecca for Max's death makes DS a victim and in DS's mind it justifies Rebecca's death, i.e. "she murdered my son, she deserved to die." If Max was truly murdered by RZ, there would be much more attention placed on Max's death than on RZ's.

IMO this did not play out as DS had hoped which IMO is this: in people's minds, Rebecca would be in a dump pile because everyone would believe that she killed Max and Dina Shacknai would be getting all of the sympathy.

Unfortunately for DS, the idea that Rebecca would hurt Max intentionally is preposterous on its face. And the theory that Rebecca killed herself because of guilt does not ring true and has not been proven.