Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California, #3

[LuckyLucy2]

I would imagine Dr. Dina Shacknai is considered a well-respected professional by many individuals as well. Again, we will have to agree to disagree.

Dr. Wecht has been wrong on many cases, and then there is this:

Over the last two decades, ACFEI has emerged as one of the largest forensic credentialing organizations in the country.

Dr. Cyril Wecht, a prominent forensic pathologist and frequent TV commentator on high-profile crimes, chairs the group’s executive advisory board.

But ACFEI also has given its stamp of approval to far less celebrated characters. It welcomed Seymour Schlager, whose credentials were mailed to the prison where he was incarcerated for attempted murder. Zoe D. Katz — the name of a house cat enrolled by her owner in 2002 to show how easy it was to become certified by ACFEI — was issued credentials, too. More recently, Dr. Steven Hayne, a Mississippi pathologist whose testimony helped to convict two innocent men of murder, has used his ACFEI credential to bolster his status as an expert witness.

Both O’Block and Wecht, the group’s official spokesman, stressed that ACFEI certificates alone don’t make you an expert.

“It’s designed to make somebody feel good, to make them feel they’ve accomplished something, and I would hope they have,” Wecht said in an interview. “Does it really qualify them to be the expert in a particular field? No.”

Wecht also dismissed the notion that the group’s use of “college” in its name could be misleading. “That’s a play on words,” he said. “Nobody believes for one moment that it is a real college.”

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... o-problem/

American College of Forensic Examiners International
Dedicated to the Advancement of Forensic Science & Education

http://www.acfei.com



IMHO, Dr. Wecht is sometimes full of hogwash.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

There is a show called Mystery Detectives on HLN , and there is a show about the death of Jeffrey Locker. Dr. Cyril Wecht, was called as a witness by the defense lawyer for Kenneth Minor, 38, a Harlem man accused of murdering a motivational speaker based on Long Island in an act that Mr. Minor said was assisted suicide.

In the show, Wecht aid something like, "When someone wants to commit suicide badly enough, I have seen them do some very creative things."

Here is another of his comment's on the case, from the linked article:

"Although some might find it difficult to believe that a man could willingly fall on a knife, Dr. Wecht, a former Pittsburgh coroner who said he has witnessed or performed 17,000 autopsies, said he had seen stranger things.

He has reviewed cases in which a man cut off his penis and a woman cut off a breast in committing suicide, Dr. Wecht said outside of the courtroom.

“When you reach a point that you are so depressed,” he said, “you can do things to yourself that people find it hard to believe.”

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/ ... ible/?_r=0


Hard to believe? Does he mean like hang yourself in the nude after binding your ankles and wrists? That certainly isn't as strange as cutting off your penis or breast while committing suicide, is it?

JMO

 

[IQuestion]

The court considers (in order of importance) the wishes and religious beliefs of the deceased (if these can be determined), the wishes of the spouse of the deceased, the opinions of other close relatives, and the policies and regulations of the cemetery when determining if exhumation should be allowed.

Read more: http://www.deathreference.com/En-Gh/Exhumation.html#ixzz3g6IT3lK8


Sounds to me like if a family wishes to dig up their loved one for a publicity stunt, they can do so.

JMO

Well Okay (BBM & enlarged for emphasis above)....I think I am beginning to understand what you mean when you write PUBLICITY STUNT..."A publicity stunt is a planned event designed to attract the public's attention to the event's organizers or their cause. Publicity stunts can be professionally organized, or set up by amateurs." I just wanted to make sure we had a common understanding before I asked, "Oh, you mean like taking the pictures of an unconscious, fatally injured child, AGAINST HOSPITAL POLICY and putting it out on ELECTRONIC, PRINTED AND VISUAL MEDIA to get donations for a nonprofit?
Or was it to cast suspicion upon a dead woman? Or provide photo documentation designed to garner sympathy? Maybe the photos were for a planned monetary lawsuit against the other parent? Yep, I'm getting it now....using their loved one for a publicity stunt?? I think you may be onto something LuckyLucy2. Thank you for reminding me to establish parity and coequality before accusing any one family of acting inappropriately. (just my opinion, too)

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Gee, photos, of Max's injured, cut, bruised, and dead little face going public seem to make you so angry! Don't you think it is fair that people see what happened to him under Rebecca Zahau's care?

I certainly do.

There is no comparrison with that and the sensational display of digging Rebecca up for sweeps week entertainment television in an attempt to frame innocent people of murder in a case that was ruled a suicide.

But what does this have to do with the civil suit that, IMO, is doomed to fail? Why can no one on the Zahau side discuss REAL evidence?


JMO

 

[screecher]

Well Okay (BBM & enlarged for emphasis above)....I think I am beginning to understand what you mean when you write PUBLICITY STUNT..."A publicity stunt is a planned event designed to attract the public's attention to the event's organizers or their cause. Publicity stunts can be professionally organized, or set up by amateurs." I just wanted to make sure we had a common understanding before I asked, "Oh, you mean like taking the pictures of an unconscious, fatally injured child, AGAINST HOSPITAL POLICY and putting it out on ELECTRONIC, PRINTED AND VISUAL MEDIA to get donations for a nonprofit?
Or was it to cast suspicion upon a dead woman? Or provide photo documentation designed to garner sympathy? Maybe the photos were for a planned monetary lawsuit against the other parent? Yep, I'm getting it now....using their loved one for a publicity stunt?? I think you may be onto something LuckyLucy2. Thank you for reminding me to establish parity and coequality before accusing any one family of acting inappropriately. (just my opinion, too)

Bravo IQuestion, Bravo. Well said.

I am unable to comprehend how a mother could violate her child, that child's siblings and his father and grandparents in such a manner. UGH.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[justice be served]

This board seems to be heating up. It must be nearing the time for some all-important depositions where Dina needs to finally put forth the evidence she's been reluctant to share.

Will that evidence include video tapes or testimony of witnesses that gives her an ironclad alibi? If it does, why the long, long wait? I just don't get it.

 

[IQuestion]

Gee, photos, of Max's injured, cut, bruised, and dead little face going public seem to make you so angry! Don't you think it is fair that people see what happened to him under Rebecca Zahau's care?

I certainly do.

There is no comparrison with that and the sensational display of digging Rebecca up for sweeps week entertainment television in an attempt to frame innocent people of murder in a case that was ruled a suicide.

But what does this have to do with the civil suit that, IMO, is doomed to fail? Why can no one on the Zahau side discuss REAL evidence?

JMO

BBM
Evening LuckyLucy2 I have no anger...perhaps reaction formation is attached to your claim? (ie the psychological defense mechanism by which a person attributes a feeling, emotion or opinion onto another person in order to deflect from themselves?) I understand the reason for the photographs... absolutely tragic. I understand why it was done. However, I don't think it wise, prudent or safe to move a patient, especially one with a head/neck injury or roll them over on their side to take photographs. I just can't imagine a hospital approving of the process.
But you asked, "don't you think it is fair"?? And I can only reply with what I learned from my Father when I was 16. He said, "Don't expect anything in life to be fair. FAIR is a place where hogs go to compete for a blue ribbon."
LL2, your posts always provide me with a new perspective, Nite IQ.

 

[BBL]

How did the ME know what the bindings looked like when Adam found Rebecca? Adam disturbed the crime scene. Imo, speculation...

(credit) Valhall-Hinky Meter:

Then the conclusions drawn in the autopsy are based on, well, complete speculation? When Adam Shacknai, Jonah’s brother, found Rebecca hanging from the balcony, he disturbed the crime scene in the following ways in order to attempt CPR:

•He cut her down and let her fall to the grassy area in the courtyard, he untied the rope that bound her wrists, and removed the gag from her mouth to perform CPR.

•The coroner has concluded that the T-shirt was loosely wrapped around Rebecca’s neck and that the rope around her wrists was loose allowing her to slip her hands into the bindings.

•The family contends there is no way for the coroner to know either of these things considering those two items had been disturbed and loosened by Adam prior to the autopsy being performed.

Snipped because someone is trying to send us to the weeds. So, let's get back to what is important... ^^^^ see quoted above. Gag? Open to interpretation. I don't think anyone other than Adam saw the supposed "gag" in Rebecca's mouth. No where is it proven that she could "easily have spit it out". What we do know is the shirt was wrapped around her neck (3 times?). It was stated in the official reports that the gag (curious wording) was reported as "tightly wound"... interesting that it was still tight after Adam supposedly removed the gag. I would like to see the "proof" that she could have easily spit out the gag. And, who is to say that Adam actually removed the gag, and why? CPR on a dead woman that had, as he so eloquently said, hung herself?

Beyond that, why would Rebecca have wrapped the shirt around her neck numerous times? OVER her hair? Then shoves it in her mouth because she "does't want to look ugly". Not plausible. Death is ugly. Hanging oneself is ugly. If Rebecca were worried about how she would look, this wouldn't be the way to commit suicide. Pills or jumping off the bridge would make the same dramatic impact, if that is what she was after. No, this is someone else wanting to humiliate. IMO absolutely no other answer to the conundrum.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

^^^ Rebecca didn't choose to jump off the bridge or take some pills. She chose to hang herself - naked and bound, off of her boyfriend's balcony. While Max Shacknai, her boyfriend's 6-year old son, who was fatally injured due to her negligence, was attached to tubes in the ICU.

She may have put the gag in to keep from screaming, or to keep from biting her tongue. Only she knows why she did. But what is certain is that she did.

Adam did NOT remove the t-shirt from her neck. He pulled the end out of her mouth. The part that had the "dried secretions" on it. Rebecca likely put it over her hair to keep her hair from getting tangled in that cactus plant. But no one really knows why she did what she did but Rebecca.

From the autopsy report:



Also of interest is that the ME says the noose knot is a slip knot.

 

[Bonepile]

Glad to see everyone is still here, and active. My apologies for not being here during these past years, and also for missing the Fourth Anniversary (this past Monday) of Rebecca's passing. It just does not seem four years, but it none the less is. Now that I am back thanks for keeping Rebecca's spirit alive and this case discussion going. Have a super summer!

 

[LuckyLucy2]

It was also the Fourth anniversary of Max's fatal fall this past Saturday, and his death yesterday. Poor little guy. He deserved a full life.

 

[BBL]

The gag: we have only Adam's word that he pulled it out to do CPR. Some say easily spit out? How would we ever know that to be the case since the gag was not in her mouth when the first responders arrived?

A person would not scream as they were hanging. No point for Rebecca to gag herself as I seriously doubt a person would put a gag in their mouth to prevent themselves from screaming as they were slowly suffocating. I'd love to hear from an expert, but my guess is that there would be no air and the airway too restricted.

IMO, one of the three accused would have stuffed the shirt in Rebecca's mouth to keep her quiet. We can agree that a gag was stuffed in her mouth to prevent screaming. To me the most reasonable reason would be that it wasn't Rebecca, it was someone else trying to prevent the screams. Take it a step further, neighbors heard screams. Makes perfect, rational, sense that one of the three poi shoved a gag in Rebecca's mouth to prevent further screaming.

 

[Betty P]

Regardless of anyone's opinion about Dr. Cyril Wecht, the 4 separate contusions, with bruising, on Rebecca's head are indisputable. These occurred prior to her death. As I mentioned before, head injuries are always a "red flag" for law enforcement officers investigating a hanging death. It seems extraordinary that a small woman falling from a balcony would sustain 4 separate head injuries before she reached the end of the rope. Any professional investigator would have questioned those injuries and, at minimum, would have conducted re-enactments to determine whether they were the result of the fall. SDSO did not, however they did go to the expense and trouble of re-enacting the elaborate tying of the knots that bound Rebecca's hands and feet.

Instead, they chose to sweep the whole matter under the rug. It would surely be helpful if an expert could stage a re-enactment of her fall to determine the origin of those 4 head injuries, using the same, unusual tug boat hitch knot used to secure Rebecca's noose. My gut instinct is that there's no way she sustained those injuries as a result of the fall.

ETA: adding a link to Cynic's very helpful diagram showing the location of the wounds to RZ's head

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...13-2013-in-California&p=10915569#post10915569

Also note in that diagram the troublesome appearance of two separate ligature marks - another "red flag" to any detective investigating a death by hanging.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

The gag: we have only Adam's word that he pulled it out to do CPR. Some say easily spit out? How would we ever know that to be the case since the gag was not in her mouth when the first responders arrived?

A person would not scream as they were hanging. No point for Rebecca to gag herself as I seriously doubt a person would put a gag in their mouth to prevent themselves from screaming as they were slowly suffocating. I'd love to hear from an expert, but my guess is that there would be no air and the airway too restricted.

IMO, one of the three accused would have stuffed the shirt in Rebecca's mouth to keep her quiet. We can agree that a gag was stuffed in her mouth to prevent screaming. To me the most reasonable reason would be that it wasn't Rebecca, it was someone else trying to prevent the screams. Take it a step further, neighbors heard screams. Makes perfect, rational, sense that one of the three poi shoved a gag in Rebecca's mouth to prevent further screaming.

No, that doesn't make perfect, rational sense at all. You say Rebecca would not have put it in her mouth to stop a scream, but murderers would? Not logical.

From the way the shirt was, with the body part hanging in front with dried secretions on it from Rebecca's mouth, and from Adam's saying he pulled something out of her mouth to try CPR, it was very clear to Dr. Lucus, the man who cut the shirt off of her, that she had used it as a gag. And that it could have been spit out by Rebecca at any time.

You have no evidence to suggest that Adam, Dina, or Nina were anywhere around when Rebecca tied the shirt around her neck. None. Only Rebecca was in the room and on the balcony.

And how do you explain the fact that Rebecca was still holding the end of the rope that she used to hold the wrist bindings tight in her cold, dead fingers when LE arrived?

THAT is iron-clad proof she did it herself. All of the other DNA and physical evidence is just icing on the suicide cake.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

No, that doesn't make perfect, rational sense at all. You say Rebecca would not have put it in her mouth to stop a scream, but murderers would? Not logical.

From the way the shirt was, with the body part hanging in front with dried secretions on it from Rebecca's mouth, and from Adam's saying he pulled something out of her mouth to try CPR, it was very clear to Dr. Lucus, the man who cut the shirt off of her, that she had used it as a gag. And that it could have been spit out by Rebecca at any time.

You have no evidence to suggest that Adam, Dina, or Nina were anywhere around when Rebecca tied the shirt around her neck. None. Only Rebecca was in the room and on the balcony.

And how do you explain the fact that Rebecca was still holding the end of the rope that she used to hold the wrist bindings tight in her cold, dead fingers when LE arrived?

THAT is iron-clad proof she did it herself. All of the other DNA and physical evidence is just icing on the suicide cake.

JMO

Again, the lack of physical evidence in the death room may also indicate the perps who killed Rebecca were careful to use gloves (some were found at the death scene) and to clean up afterwards, wiping off fingerprints (there were dryer sheets also in the room, commonly used to wipe off fingerprints.)

In the middle of the night, the perpetrators had time to cover their tracks. This is fairly common for crime scenes.

 

[screecher]

"icing on the suicide cake"...wow. How apt for an analogy.

Pretty sure dina is the garbage foodie, as Rebecca was into healthy eating.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Regardless of anyone's opinion about Dr. Cyril Wecht, the 4 separate contusions, with bruising, on Rebecca's head are indisputable. These occurred prior to her death. As I mentioned before, head injuries are always a "red flag" for law enforcement officers investigating a hanging death. It seems extraordinary that a small woman falling from a balcony would sustain 4 separate head injuries before she reached the end of the rope. Any professional investigator would have questioned those injuries and, at minimum, would have conducted re-enactments to determine whether they were the result of the fall. SDSO did not, however they did go to the expense and trouble of re-enacting the elaborate tying of the knots that bound Rebecca's hands and feet.

Instead, they chose to sweep the whole matter under the rug. It would surely be helpful if an expert could stage a re-enactment of her fall to determine the origin of those 4 head injuries, using the same, unusual tug boat hitch knot used to secure Rebecca's noose. My gut instinct is that there's no way she sustained those injuries as a result of the fall.

ETA: adding a link to Cynic's very helpful diagram showing the location of the wounds to RZ's head

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...13-2013-in-California&p=10915569#post10915569

Also note in that diagram the troublesome appearance of two separate ligature marks - another "red flag" to any detective investigating a death by hanging.

Here is a diagram of her head injuries that is to scale. Cynic's diagram is NOT to scale. As you can see, the injuries were not significant, just like the Medical Examiner that did her autopsy noted. I believe she either got them after she jumped, or when she was tying the rope to the bed frame.



The two separate ligature marks certainly were not a "red flag" to the 15 detectives or the ME that investigated her death and ruled it a suicide.

JMO

 

[LuckyLucy2]

"icing on the suicide cake"...wow. How apt for an analogy.

Pretty sure dina is the garbage foodie, as Rebecca was into healthy eating.

And a food control freak that wouldn't let the kids eat - as we learned in the Phoenix Magazine article. Perhaps I should have said the "water on the suicide lettuce?"

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Again, the lack of physical evidence in the death room may also indicate the perps who killed Rebecca were careful to use gloves (some were found at the death scene) and to clean up afterwards, wiping off fingerprints (there were dryer sheets also in the room, commonly used to wipe off fingerprints.)

In the middle of the night, the perpetrators had time to cover their tracks. This is fairly common for crime scenes.

So what does ole attorney Greer say to the Judge? "There are no fingerprints or other evidence from anyone other than Rebecca, therefore, Adam, Dina and Nina did it?" Ridonkulous.

Besides, the crime scene was described as not cleaned up. And that is easy to see in the photos. Did they wear hair nets and levitate, too?

 

[Betty P]

So what does ole attorney Greer say to the Judge? "There are no fingerprints or other evidence from anyone other than Rebecca, therefore, Adam, Dina and Nina did it?" Ridonkulous.

Besides, the crime scene was described as not cleaned up. And that is easy to see in the photos. Did they wear hair nets and levitate, too?

View attachment 78322

No, there were several items in the crime scene that contained "mixed" DNA not belonging to Rebecca. As for items left behind, no one said the killers were geniuses. They were likely panicked, afraid of being caught and some may have been under the influence. JMO. My personal opinion has been that one of the reasons someone in the Shacknai family called attorney (and former county prosecutor) Paul Pfingst to have him rush over to the mansion and ensure there was no evidence on hand. It appears he may have been escorted out before he could collect all of it. JMO.