Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #2

[BooBooTheFool]

I basically agreed with you about AS (not all his sterling qualities as you describe them, but simply that the corrupt investigation has left Greer little to work with, forensically, to pin on AS). I do wonder, however, with all AS's advanced experience why he says he can't tie basic nautical knots ... can't even name them. Odd, to say the least.

But what about Rebecca's manner of death? If you're aware of all the most recent evidence, then you know she was hogtied because a) her knees were fixed in a bent position on the ground, which wouldn't happen if was hanging straight down by a noose, and b) there were loose pieces of rope attached to the bindings on her wrists and ankles that when put back in their original position end-to-end, depict a hogtie.

And you're also aware of the knife handle she was sexually assaulted with, right? The one with blood up to the hilt on all 4 sides? And then there's also the deep bruise on her back, that no one can explain except that it looks like someone had a knee in her back at some point.

No way this was suicide. The probability is infinitesimal.

All of this is why I think it HAS to be a homicide. Someone else killed her.

 

[K_Z]

If the judge lets the jury split the verdict do you think the jury will vote Rebecca was murdered but vote that there isn't enough evidence to say Adam was the killer?

If the answer is yes, the jury will vote Rebecca was murder and Adam didn't do it, then what do you think will happen if the judge does not allow a split verdict?


This is very interesting IMO because if the jury is not allowed to split the verdict and the jurors do feel Rebecca was murdered but feel there is not enough evidence to say Adam did it what will they do?

Since it is not a criminal case the weight is not as severe as it would be if they were sending Adam to prison.

BUT, the jury could very well vote all the way and say Rebecca was murdered and Adam was the killer.

These thoughts literally keep me awake at night. Really. I can't figure out what conclusion the jury will come to.

I would love to have your opinions.

Thank you,
Tricia

Actually, one of the things that keeps me up at night is pondering "what if" the plaintiffs prevail in this civil case?

Because regardless of the verdict-- split or otherwise, I think the chances for a reopened murder investigation are slim and none. Leaning heavily toward "none".

Because then there would be standing civil verdict of "AS is responsible for RZ's death", but a legally closed case of "suicide".

To me, that is the most potentially frustrating, unpalatable outcome.

Make no mistake, I strongly want the Zahau's and Mr. Greer to win their case. But the pragmatic and jaded part of me says it will make no difference as to whether the murder case is reopened. I don't know if a verdict for the plaintiffs will be "enough" comfort. I hope it will be, but it's a big unknown.

 

[Jessica2012]

I basically agreed with you about AS (not all his sterling qualities as you describe them, but simply that the corrupt investigation has left Greer little to work with, forensically, to pin on AS). I do wonder, however, with all AS's advanced experience why he says he can't tie basic nautical knots ... can't even name them. Odd, to say the least.

But what about Rebecca's manner of death? If you're aware of all the most recent evidence, then you know she was hogtied because a) her knees were fixed in a bent position on the ground, which wouldn't happen if was hanging straight down by a noose, and b) there were loose pieces of rope attached to the bindings on her wrists and ankles that when put back in their original position end-to-end, depict a hogtie.

And you're also aware of the knife handle she was sexually assaulted with, right? The one with blood up to the hilt on all 4 sides? And then there's also the deep bruise on her back, that no one can explain except that it looks like someone had a knee in her back at some point.

No way this was suicide. The probability is infinitesimal.

Imp, I do not think the Plantiffs proved at all that she was hogtied or sexually assaulted with the knife, or that she was assaulted in anyway by anyone. The back bruise could have happened in many ways, no evidence it was a knee.

You have your opinion and I have mine. The jury will also will vote on their own analysis of what happened based on what they see and hear in court that is allowed by the Judge. They are not even allowed to talk to each other about the case until deliberations. It is likely, like here, no one will be able to sway any one else’s opinion.

 

[Imp]

Actually, one of the things that keeps me up at night is pondering "what if" the plaintiffs prevail in this civil case?

Because regardless of the verdict-- split or otherwise, I think the chances for a reopened murder investigation are slim and none. Leaning heavily toward "none".

Because then there would be standing civil verdict of "AS is responsible for RZ's death", but a legally closed case of "suicide".

To me, that is the most potentially frustrating, unpalatable outcome.

Make no mistake, I strongly want the Zahau's and Mr. Greer to win their case. But the pragmatic and jaded part of me says it will make no difference as to whether the murder case is reopened. I don't know if a verdict for the plaintiffs will be "enough" comfort. I hope it will be, but it's a big unknown.

I think I already know the answer to this question, but does anyone know if it's possible to re-open a death investigation that occurred in one state using investigators from another state? Or federal investigators? Or independent (non-govt) investigators?

I just don't see the point of re-opening the case if it'll be handled once again by local authorities.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I read what must have been hundreds of pages of motions full of objections by the defence before this ever got near a courtroom. Mr Greer has been fighting like hell to get this to court in motions in filings with the court ...for years. I am SO impressed with this Judge and her knowledge of the law and her objectivity. You could not have got a better Judge in my opinion. She is great for BOTH sides and that is exactly what everyone wants, a fair and equitable voice.

Mr Greer has been amazing. To do this on his own, against these heavy hitters ...wow. He is a truly a fantastic attorney.

I agree. I admire Mr Greer very much.

 

[Betty P]

I think I already know the answer to this question, but does anyone know if it's possible to re-open a death investigation that occurred in one state using investigators from another state? Or federal investigators? Or independent (non-govt) investigators?

I just don't see the point of re-opening the case if it'll be handled once again by local authorities.

IANAL, but I'm pretty sure the Ohio Atty General's office can re-open the investigation. Kamala Harris chose not to at the time, but she's no longer AG. They can handle it..

ETA: Perhaps we could start an online petition. Let's see what Tricia and Keith Greer think of the idea.

 

[Jessica2012]

Jessica2012 -- I'd like to respectfully clarify your quoted reference above. I believe Mr. Greer was referring specifically to Attorney Ann Bremner here. Ms. Bremner was initially hired by RZ family to urge SDSO to reopen RZ death investigation --which many believe was ruled suicide after minimal investigation considering the horrific death scene. Bremner unsworn statements, perhaps exaggerated, were to bring attention to SDSO and RZ death investigation.

Yes, thank you Seattle1. I meant to include in my post that he attributed that to Anne Bremner, and that she was the one that “may have exaggerated the importance” of the Asian bondage *advertiser censored*. He did say it was viewed on Monday evening which would be before Adam arrived Tuesday afternoon and when just Rebecca and XZ were there.

I have followed this on Websleuths and began posting about it here in 2012, so am well aware of Bremner’s many exaggerations and inconsistencies in the case. I took a break from posting for a while because it got a bit difficult for those of us on the side of law enforcement’s findings and those that felt Dina Shacknai was being unjustly accused.

 

[Betty P]

Yes, thank you Seattle1. I meant to include in my post that he attributed that to Anne Bremner, and that she was the one that “may have exaggerated the importance” of the Asian bondage *advertiser censored*. He did say it was viewed on Monday evening which would be before Adam arrived Tuesday afternoon and when just Rebecca and XZ were there.

I have followed this on Websleuths and began posting about it here in 2012, so am well aware of Bremner’s many exaggerations and inconsistencies in the case. I took a break from posting for a while because it got a bit difficult for those of us on the side of law enforcement’s findings and those that felt Dina Shacknai was being unjustly accused.

Perhaps you can provide us with an example. I don't recall her saying anything that was inaccurate.

 

[Betty P]

Yes, thank you Seattle1. I meant to include in my post that he attributed that to Anne Bremner, and that she was the one that “may have exaggerated the importance” of the Asian bondage *advertiser censored*. He did say it was viewed on Monday evening which would be before Adam arrived Tuesday afternoon and when just Rebecca and XZ were there.

I have followed this on Websleuths and began posting about it here in 2012, so am well aware of Bremner’s many exaggerations and inconsistencies in the case. I took a break from posting for a while because it got a bit difficult for those of us on the side of law enforcement’s findings and those that felt Dina Shacknai was being unjustly accused.

I was around her back then, too. I don't recall any exaggeration on her part WRT the asian *advertiser censored*. IIRC, it was the posters here who disliked Rebecca and posted false and inflammatory things about her that kept pushing the story about the asian *advertiser censored*. For many years they actually accused Rebecca of watching it. Really disgusting people.

 

[Jessica2012]

We don't necessarily know if there aren't things like this (sexual assault or harassment) in his background. If his brother can "take care of" things in his life (like the weird thing he said about some sort of driving offense), he can take care of anything like that.

Men do rape women without having much of a "motive" besides sadist sexual gratification.

-----
Separate thought but from the moment i heard about this murder, I've always felt that "asian bondage" is something JS was into.

Respectfully, there is no evidence that Jonah took care of Adam’s insurance issue (I recall he said it was a mistake that was cleared up and the issue dropped), or that he has ever been in any other trouble with the law for Jonah to “fix”.

We are free to speculate, but the jurors will not be.

 

[Lezah]

SD SHERIFF IS AN ELECTED POSITION

Gore, 69, has been sheriff since 2009, when the Board of Supervisors appointed him to replace retiring Sheriff William Kolender.

Gore beat two challengers - former undersheriff and state assemblyman Jay LaSuer and sheriff’s Lt. Jim Duffy - in the 2010 election primary. He had no opponents in his 2014 re-election.

Last I heard, Gore plans to run again in 2018!

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/sd-me-sheriff-gore-20170222-story.html

Gosh, how interesting...thanks for sharing that!

 

[Jessica2012]

Betty P, I’m curious why you believe the state of Ohio would get involved? TIA

I don’t think you are understanding what I am saying about the *advertiser censored*. It was Keith Greer who just said recently on one of his interviews with Tricia that “Anne Bremner may have exaggerated about the Asaian *advertiser censored*”, and it was viewed on Rebecca’s computer on Monday evening, long before Adam arrived.

Anne said many times while she was the Zahau’s attorney that it was Adam that viewed the “Asian bondage *advertiser censored*.” If what Greer says is true, and you all seem to believe him, then Anne Bremner was definitely “exaggerating”, if not downright lying.

 

[justice be served]

It absolutely defies reasoning now that the facts are outlined that Rebecca hung herself, period. if I were to take a poll of 100 people with what is now PROVEN, I would say 95 of 100 would agree there was a murder. The other 5 would believe the earth is flat. Just my personal experience of those I have spoken with over the years. But each to their own.

 

[Jessica2012]

Perhaps you can provide us with an example. I don't recall her saying anything that was inaccurate.

Here is a link. Anne stated it was viewed the day before the hanging, which would be Tuesday when Adam was there. Greer said it was viewed Monday night, before Adam arrived.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/16083634/...oronado-mansion-computer?clienttype=printable

 

[K_Z]

IANAL, but I'm pretty sure the Ohio Atty General's office can re-open the investigation. Kamala Harris chose not to at the time, but she's no longer AG. They can handle it..

ETA: Perhaps we could start an online petition. Let's see what Tricia and Keith Greer think of the idea.

BBM below, and underlined. (And I think Betty P. may have meant California, not Ohio?)

But remember, at the time Jonah wrote his request, the WAY he chose to word that request (remember JS is a lawyer, and has good lawyers and image consultant companies) meant that the AG's office DIDN'T have jurisdiction to re-open the case. And Jonah never asked again. IMO, the way that was worded was intentional. To look like they were appealing for help, knowing all the while that there would be no involvement by the AG because it didn't fit the statute for involvement.

The state attorney general has declined a request by Jonah Shacknai to review San Diego County law enforcement findings about the deaths of his girlfriend and his 6-year-old son.

In a letter sent Wednesday to Shacknai, Chief Asst. Atty. Gen. Dane R. Gillette said Shacknai's request does not fit the criteria set for the attorney general's involvement in such a review.

"Please accept our sincere condolences for your tragic loss and feel free to contact me if you have any questions," Gillette wrote, on behalf of Atty. Gen. Kamala Harris.

The office launches such reviews, Gillette wrote, if there is a conflict of interest on the part of local law enforcement, if a local agency has requested assistance or if there are allegations of malfeasance.

In his request, Shacknai said he continues to support the Coronado Police Department, San Diego County Sheriff's Department and San Diego County medical examiner in their conclusion that Max died from an accidental fall and that Rebecca Zahau committed suicide.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...-shacknai-to-review-coronado-death-cases.html

California Attorney General Kamala Harris decided yesterday that she won't review the San Diego County Sheriff Department's findings that the bizarre death of Rebecca Zahau, the girlfriend of Scottsdale-based Medicis CEO Jonah Shacknai -- who asked Harris to review the case -- was a suicide.

Harris says the AG's Office only reviews cases handled by local law enforcement "under very narrow circumstances."

"Some of the factors that are considered before committing the state's scarce resources include whether a clear conflict of interest exists, whether a local law enforcement agency has requested assistance, whether local investigative resources have been exhausted, and whether there are allegations of gross malfeasance by the investigative agency," the California AG's Office says in a letter to Shacknai. "Based on a review of [Shacknai's] request, we must decline your invitation to review this investigation at this time."

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news...ion-into-the-suicide-of-rebecca-zahau-6643207

 

[Imp]

<snipped to address>

But remember, at the time Jonah wrote his request, the WAY he chose to word that request (remember JS is a lawyer, and has good lawyers and image consultant companies) meant that the AG's office DIDN'T have jurisdiction to re-open the case. And Jonah never asked again. IMO, the way that was worded was intentional. To look like they were appealing for help, knowing all the while that there would be no involvement by the AG because it didn't fit the statute for involvement.

Disclaimer: I'm NOT a Kamala fan. Honestly wouldn't surprise me if Team JS wasn't advised by the then-AG how to word the 'request' to secure a slam-dunk denial.

 

[Lezah]

Lezah -
The table has three legs, and has had three legs for some time ( there was testimony to this from a friend I recall) It would be highly unlikely to be stable enough to hold AS and RZ weight during a complicated, weight shifting, unstable center of gravity, cut down operation.[/B
The table was upright at the crimescene, so it stayed upright even when he leapt off, holding a dead weight in an awkward position?
AS testified he placed RZ on the grass without difficulty and got down off the table without difficulty. (It is three feet high with only three legs, and remained upright)


Claudianunes
He doesn't strike me as strong enough to do all of that. To me, it would be more plausible if he said that he cut her down and tried to hold her but couldn't. Doesn't seem possible for him to be o that little table (that, by the way, doesn't look very stable or even strong to hold one adult, let alone, two adults), having enough strenght to cut the rope (as other person here said, seems to be one of those types of ropes that are very hard and not bendable) WHILE holding her, an adult woman, with ONE arm. Wouldn't she come down very quick as he cut the rope? She was, sadly, dead at that point so, imagine how hard is it to hold a death body weight. I know people have said that she was tiny and skinny but, how light could she be and how strong could he be? His version doesn't seem possible to me.



I would challenge anyone to pick up a bag of anything that weighs approx. 105 lbs & stand on a table with a missing table leg or one that is broken, and jump off the table with that weight. Or if you are brave enough have your husband hold you and attempt to jump off an approx. three foot table to the ground.

Imagine it is dead weight and that rigor mortis which starts 20-30 minutes after death has been setting in. Cell phone records confirm someone listened to Zahau&#8217;s voicemail for two minutes at 12:50am on July 13, about two hours before her estimated time of death. Rigor would have been setting in for approx. 3-4 hrs.

When someone is dead it means that the body becomes harder to move as the limbs are stuck in place. These factors make a person seem heavier & it is more difficult when trying to lift or carry them.

Are any pictures of the table available for viewing.

PS I stood on my table outside which is a dining table of the same height...gosh! ...it’s HIGH! it changes your perspective...try it, and imagine if you could jump off holding another person, and a phone, and a knife...

PS I think my neighbors must think I am a loony....!

 

[Verboten]

Disclaimer: I'm NOT a Kamala fan. Honestly wouldn't surprise me if Team JS wasn't advised by the then-AG how to word the 'request' to secure a slam-dunk denial.

They called it Jonah Schacknai's "Stategic Masterstroke" in Money magazine. There is absolutely zero doubt he knew what he was doing--appearing to want more investigation while ensuring it wouldn't happen. He is an attorney, and even people who don't like him can't help themselves but say he's a 'very intelligent man.' He could have just used wording to ensure it didn't meet criteria or he could have ensured the outcome he wanted by speaking through back channels. He's a big Democratic donor. My old boss was, too, and people (important politicians) would say about him, 'I hear he's a big deal.' Trust me, they will bend over backwards for these big $ big shots.

 

[Seattle1]

PS I stood on my table outside which is a dining table of the same height...gosh! ...it&#8217;s HIGH! it changes your perspective...try it, and imagine if you could jump off holding another person, and a phone, and a knife...

PS I think my neighbors must think I am a loony....!

AND PLEASE... a wobbly table at that!

I'm reading old police reports and note that SDSO collected a "3 leg patio table" in evidence. I'm assuming the broken leg left behind(?). Can any posters remind me when the table leg was first reported broken? I recall it was broken before RZ death but can't confirm the source.
TIA.

 

[Seattle1]

REBECCA NALEPA CLUES MAY REST IN COURTYARD TABLE .... tbt July 18, 2011

"...On that brick path appeared a wooden table. Nalepa was just inches from the table, laying face down in the grass. It remains unclear how Nalepa got from the alleged hanging state on the balcony, down to the courtyard, next to the table.

On Friday, the homicide unit for the San Diego County Sheriff&#8217;s Department removed from the residence that three legged table. They also removed a mirror or picture frame, squares of gray carpet. They reportedly had a plastic container and a brown paper bag. Their search came one day after autopsy results were obtained by the Office...."

http://news.lalate.com/2011/07/18/rebecca-nalepa-clues-may-rest-in-courtyard-table/

photos at link