Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #2

[cynic]

For those unable to view the testimony of Jonah Shacknai elsewhere...

Jonah Shacknai's civil trial testimony - part one.
http://dai.ly/x6gq47q

Jonah Shacknai's civil trial testimony - part two
http://dai.ly/x6gq47r

 

[Seattle1]

snip

... it was sad to hear how RZ was initially forced to physically remove her possessions and move out (after only one weekend) due to a teens reaction that her Dad and RZ would be living together. Good grief JS-- what a way to empower a 13 yr old! Any surprise there was no change in attitude to July 2011

With all due respect, as a person who was "not allowed" to live with my dad after stepmom moved in (similarly, my sibling was kicked out as soon as she turned 18), I personally think the child should always come first. My stepmother's children (who are older than my sibling and I) lived there but we couldn't. Of course tons of factors come into play and there are various options for handling these things. But I will never feel that the child shouldn't come first after what my sister and I experienced, so I can't judge JH too harshly on that without knowing more.

IMO, JS testimony was respectful and surprisingly candid. As JS continued in the second part of the trial, he described his relationship with RZ to the effect it was "perfect in a perfect world" or a world of two. He candidly offered the difficulty of parenting a teen, and that the teen's behavior was a constant strain on the relationship from the beginning. They very much acknowledged it was a problem, to where JS and RZ sought couples counseling for how to "neutralize" the behavior / relationship. IMO, this was never a situation of the adults not putting the child first.

Most certainly the welfare of your children take priority, and I'm truly sorry for your personal experience.

 

[Seattle1]

I find it ridiculous that Jonah tried to paint Rebecca as suicidal because she didn't seem to believe in organized religion. LOL

You don't have to regularly attend a place of worship to be "religious" or spiritual nor do you need to regularly worship a god to not believe in suicide.

It was also absurd when Jonah brought up Rebecca's ex NN about how he was abusive with Rebecca in order to try to paint him as a potential killer of Rebecca. Why would Neil paint on bedroom door, "SHE SAVED HIM CAN YOU SAVE HER"? particularly when he was NOWHERE near Coronado or San Diego at the time. Get outta here.

We all know who assaulted and murdered Rebecca and it wasn't Rebecca herself or NN.

Besides slipping NN into his testimony, was it just me that kept catching subliminal hints in the direction of DS?...
Wow, reasonable doubt!

 

[Imp]

Besides slipping NN into his testimony, was it just me that kept catching subliminal hints at the direction of DS?...Wow.

If so, not surprising, imo. He denies he did the self-stabbing motion or made the 'Asian honor' remark, which originated with DS. If he really didn't do/say that (and who knows, at this point, who can be believed?), it's an incredibly inflammatory thing to accuse someone of given the situation.

 

[Seattle1]

Originally Posted by Jessica2012 View Post
But don’t you think it is important for the jury to know she was not religious like her family believed? I sure do.

Absolutely, IF it is the truth. Since Rebecca cannot speak for herself, I guess we have to choose who we believe is telling the truth, right?

Do you really think being opposed to "Organized Religion" impunes a Christian's faith, spirituality, or commitment? The testimony I heard included JS offering that he once also attended EASTER service with RZ !!!

 

[K_Z]

If I remember correctly, this unfortunate incident occurred years prior to JS and RZ meeting. I give JS credit for two things here: testifying he believed RZ's account , and essentially offering in court that RZ could never ever do right by DS (eluding to an "ex-wife" branding RZ a shoplifter).

Actually, Jonah says it was in early 2011 when they were dating, or maybe that's just when she told him? The video of Jonah's testimony on the shoplifting is at the link, part of the short news story.

That particular situation has been used over and over and over and over by extremely mean spirited posters here and elsewhere to demean and degrade Rebecca. To suggest that she somehow deserved what happened to her. So frustrating.

Certainly she wasn't perfect, but the sheer volume and tenacity of the hateful attackers, when the victim is long dead in her grave, has been nothing short of astounding. Mass murderers and serial killers have been treated more kindly and respectfully than some of those who have mercilessly attacked and demeaned this dead woman. That alone sends up so many red flags. Why does anyone have this level of hate, over so many years, toward a woman long dead, whose death was ruled officially a suicide? Not even an ounce of compassion, even if they believe she committed suicide?? Who can sustain that level of hate, trolling obsessively all over the internet, for so many years? It's frightening.

 

[Seattle1]

If so, not surprising, imo. He denies he did the self-stabbing motion or made the 'Asian honor' remark, which originated with DS. If he really didn't do/say that (and who knows, at this point, who can be believed?), it's an incredibly inflammatory thing to accuse someone of given the situation.

He's a lawyer! Reasonable doubt....

 

[K_Z]

If so, not surprising, imo. He denies he did the self-stabbing motion or made the 'Asian honor' remark, which originated with DS. If he really didn't do/say that (and who knows, at this point, who can be believed?), it's an incredibly inflammatory thing to accuse someone of given the situation.

Yes, as I said, one of them is not telling the truth. Personally, I think Jonah's testimony in this respect was far more credible.

It'd be interesting to know what the jury thought of that, if they thought about it much. We have to remember we know far more about the case than they do.

 

[K_Z]

Besides slipping NN into his testimony, was it just me that kept catching subliminal hints at the direction of DS?...Wow.

I took that as trying to demonstrate that Rebecca had a history of chaotic relationships.

Plant seeds of doubt about her coping and mental health.

 

[Betty P]

Thanks for this post. It's total victim bashing to go into this crap which has NOTHING to do with anything. Are you kidding me--courts don't even allow prior crimes to be mentioned when someone is on trial for a violent and similar offense, because it's prejudicial; but we're talking about whether Rebecca had affairs? How about Jonah? Did he ever have an affair? What about actions against his company and how that speaks to his honesty and character? If this kind of crap is being allowed in front of the jury (I haven't heard caught up on reports about today & only have what little I see on the news in terms of other testimony like her ex-husband), I can't understand why it's acceptable.

Agree, I'm glad the judge didn't allow it. Rebecca isn't there to defend herself or correct Jonah's claims. This is very dishonest and disrespectful to her memory. It shows how little he cares for Rebecca and also shows he'll make up any story necessary to save his brother.

 

[Jessica2012]

And you know this how? Any links? Verify as insider?

Unless you have links to substantiate he is by all appearances not accomplished in any notable fashion. Probably have a million or more who earn degrees in US every year. Lots work too.

His work certifications are suitable for any high school graduate to complete as linked.

<modsnip>

I know this because i watched his sworn testimony on the witness stand. There are links up thread should you care to watch. I don’t think watching it qualifies me to be an insider.

There are no links to show that becoming the top level of Maritime Pilot are suitable for high school graduates with no training in the field. Can you please supply that, as I am very interested. Thank you.

 

[Jessica2012]

If I remember correctly, this unfortunate incident occurred years prior to JS and RZ meeting. I give JS credit for two things here: testifying he believed RZ's account , and essentially offering in court that RZ could never ever do right by DS (eluding to an "ex-wife" branding RZ a shoplifter).

The shop lifting incident happened in August of 2009, just months before she met Jonah.

Respectfully, we do not know if this was her first time shop lifiting or not. We do not know if her story it true about her brother Solomon being arrested for a violent crime. All we know is that she plead guilty, paid $500, and had to take a prevention class.

Does anyone in contact with the Zahaus know if Solomon was indeed arrested for a violent crime and what the circumstances were? TIA

 

[Jessica2012]

Originally Posted by Jessica2012 View Post
But don’t you think it is important for the jury to know she was not religious like her family believed? I sure do.



Do you really think being opposed to "Organized Religion" impunes a Christian's faith, spirituality, or commitment? The testimony I heard included JS offering that he once also attended EASTER service with RZ !!!

No, but isn’t being a Christian all about organized religion to some extent? He did not ever say she considered herself a Christian, and said she did not like any organized religion. If I missed Jonah saying she was a Christian, please let me know where he said that. One attendance at Easter Service in the over two years they were together does not make on a Christian. I’m not trying to put her down for that at all. But it certainly sounds like she was not religious in the way her parents and family thought she was. She would not the be first person like that.

 

[BBL]

No, but isn’t being a Christian all about organized religion to some extent? .

Snipped by me... because I'm honestly trying to understand why this matters? You can be spiritual without organized religion. Is this your cause for suicide? All the sudden she wasn't a "christian" so she could now feel comfortable committing suicide? It really doesn't matter how she defined her religion. Nothing here, IMO, points to suicide.

Pure science pretty much dictates that she didn't commit suicide in the way LE tries to spin it. So, really, what is the point of harping on this? Same with the theft?

Sorry, but I'm having flashbacks to prior years when this kept being brought up in very nasty ways. Rebecca didn't go to church with regularity. So what is your point? You don't have to be a religious to not feel comfortable hanging yourself. With your hands tightly tied, feet bound, gag in mouth, thumps to the head, and barely a footprint on the balcony. Divine intervention? I think not.

 

[Jessica2012]

Whoa, I am not trying to disrespect Rebecca in any way, shape, or form.

Mary has been saying since Rebecca died that she was very religious, and was a Christian, and would never commit suicide because she believed she would go to hell. This does not seem to be true.

Mary testified on the stand to what I said above. Jonah is testifying to the person he knew.

Being a Christian does not mean you will not commit suicde, just as not being a Christian doesn&#8217;t mean you will.

It is another piece of information for the jury to weigh as they contemplate their verdict. You have made up your mind. They have not and will have to consider all of the testimony.

 

[Lilibet]

The shop lifting incident happened in August of 2009, just months before she met Jonah.

Respectfully, we do not know if this was her first time shop lifiting or not. We do not know if her story it true about her brother Solomon being arrested for a violent crime. All we know is that she plead guilty, paid $500, and had to take a prevention class.

Does anyone in contact with the Zahaus know if Solomon was indeed arrested for a violent crime and what the circumstances were? TIA

But whether or not Rebecca was guilty of shoplifting makes no difference in this court case. It doesn&#8217;t provide evidence that Rebecca committed suicide or was murdered. I don&#8217;t condone shoplifting, but at this point it is irrelevant and frankly, meanspirited to dredge it up and make a big deal about it IMO.

No, but isn&#8217;t being a Christian all about organized religion to some extent? He did not ever say she considered herself a Christian, and said she did not like any organized religion. If I missed Jonah saying she was a Christian, please let me know where he said that. One attendance at Easter Service in the over two years they were together does not make on a Christian. I&#8217;m not trying to put her down for that at all. But it certainly sounds like she was not religious in the way her parents and family thought she was. She would not the be first person like that.

Yes, it&#8217;s pretty hard to be a practicing Christian without accepting &#8220;organized religion&#8221; of some sort. But I don&#8217;t think Rebecca being a Christian or not really matters in this lawsuit. We can probably all agree that what her mother said about this is meaningless and added nothing relevant to the case. Even if Rebecca was as devout as her mother thinks she was, suicide is not out of the question. All sorts of people of all sorts of beliefs commit suicide for all sorts of reasons. This case hinges on proving that a murder was committed rather than on proving that Rebecca did not and would not commit suicide. So I don&#8217;t understand why Greer introduced religion into the case. It&#8217;s a distraction now. He has enough physical and circumstantial evidence to make a case for murder or at least get a new investigation. And I think that&#8217;s the case even if the jury can&#8217;t decide if AS did it.
JMO

 

[Lezah]

We are all pretty aware that in this case there is much more circumstance evidence than direct evidence. However, in reality, circumstantial evidence is no doubt an important and valid tool used effectively to convict in both civil and in criminal trials.

Lacey Peterson’s murder for example, her husband was convicted and is on death row, due to primarily circumstantial evidence.

Certainly, there are many facts presented so far in this trial that do not necessarily prove AS’s culpability, such as AS having considerable ‘knot tying’ knowledge, his admitting masturbating immediately before finding RZ body, his testimony that he was the last known person to see RZ, him having no alibi or witness that he was with anyone else at the time of RZ death, the fact he heard and saw nothing at all to indicate another person had entered the home, the painted message being relevant to a very limited circle of the family at the time it was painted, including AS...all are purely circumstantial pieces of evidence.

Re the DNA - I personally view the availability of testable DNA evidence as a very powerful tool in the exoneration of a suspect. However, a scene completely void of a potential perpetrators DNA evidence cannot exonerate or exclude that individual - I see DNA as simply a powerful matching tool, if and when it is available.

I think we should consider that there were many legitimate murder conviction prior to DNA testing, and where cases have been overturned, and individuals exonerated, it is when available DNA is found to not match the convicted persons DNA, not when there is none found to test.

If anything, the fact there is no DNA contamination on RZ body after a prolonged, acknowledged, lengthy and direct contact ( cutting down, mouth to mouth, CPR etc) suggests to me a greater likelihood that AS could well have been in the ‘hanging room’ as he was at the ‘cut down’ - as the complete lack of his DNA is consistent in BOTH scene of death situations.

If there is ‘no shedding’ in the ‘cut down’ scenario, it is not unreasonable to conclude there would likely be ‘no shedding’ in the ‘hanging room’ scenario as well.

The only ‘DNA match’- is in that there is none found in either situation.

So, in my opinion, the jury has enough combined direct and circumstantial evidence, combined with testimony - to find AS the likely perpetrator - at this stage of the proceedings.

That said, the defense still has a considerable way to go, so their presentations may change that for me, but they currently have quite a catch up job.

Just my opinion &#128522;

 

[Lezah]

Some additional details I picked up on from Jonah's testimony today. (from memory-- forgive me for any small errors. The video should be up on the web soon, I expect.)

Max was at Coronado Sharp a little longer than I thought. They actually did the first CT scan there, once they got a heart rhythm back and established an airway. Jonah's comments about his time at Coronado Sharp sound like he knew even then it was an exceptionally grave situation.

A trauma transport team came from Rady to transport Max from Coronado Sharp, which I suspected, but wasn't sure about (the original EMS crew could have filed 2 separate run reports if they did the transport-- we only had the run report up to Coronado Sharp arrival from Dina's website).

Max was not a direct PICU admit at Rady, but went to Rady ED first. Jonah described riding in a police squad car to get to Rady, and being "kicked out" of ED when they were evaluating and stabilizing Max at Rady before being transferred to PICU. Jonah's testimony made it clear that he knew Max's condition was exceptionally grave pretty much right from the ED admission at Coronado Sharp.

Rebecca went to the ED at Coronado Sharp. Jonah sent her back to the mansion partly because they were trying to reach Dina to come to Rady, and Jonah knew it would be a bad situation to have Dina and Rebecca together at this early point in the situation with Max. (Paraphrasing from memory.)

Dina arrived around 5 pm at Rady the day of Max's accident. Jonah had a physician friend at Rady who gave him a ride back to Coronado that evening so he could shower and change clothes.

When Adam contacted Jonah about Rebecca's death, Adam first texted Jonah to call him. Jonah stepped out of Max's ICU room to make the call. Adam asked if he was sitting down, then told Jonah Rebecca was dead and had taken her life. Jonah was stunned/ shocked. A police officer got on the phone (Adam's phone?) and told Jonah not to come to the mansion, that he wouldn't be allowed inside because of the police investigation. Jonah said (IIRC) he isn't sure exactly who told him Rebecca was hanged as method of death.

I do find your postings SO informative and helpful, particularly on the medical and anatomical aspects. Thank you for sharing.
( wish I could add a dancing band animation here for you but I don't know how to do it!)

 

[Verboten]

The shop lifting incident happened in August of 2009, just months before she met Jonah.

Respectfully, we do not know if this was her first time shop lifiting or not. We do not know if her story it true about her brother Solomon being arrested for a violent crime. All we know is that she plead guilty, paid $500, and had to take a prevention class.

Does anyone in contact with the Zahaus know if Solomon was indeed arrested for a violent crime and what the circumstances were? TIA

Does anybody connected with the Shacknais know what "insurance" problem Adam was arrested for (ARRESTED for an "insurance problem"?) and how it "was taken care of.." (his honest response until he corrected himself on the witness stand)? TIA. Since Adam is on trial and Rebecca is dead, that might be more pertinent information. What about Medicis settling the CEO Shacknai "book cooking" case, per CBS news? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/medicis-settles-case-alleging-ceo-shacknai-cooked-the-books/ I mean, as long as we want to check out scars in character, let's look at everyone who isn't perfect. Rebecca was certainly not the only non-perfect human being around that household.

This is completely and totally irrelevant, and just a deflection.

 

[Jessica2012]

Does anybody connected with the Shacknais know what "insurance" problem Adam was arrested for (ARRESTED for an "insurance problem"?) and how it "was taken care of.." (his honest response until he corrected himself on the witness stand)? TIA. Since Adam is on trial and Rebecca is dead, that might be more pertinent information. What about Medicis settling the CEO Shacknai "book cooking" case, per CBS news? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/medicis-settles-case-alleging-ceo-shacknai-cooked-the-books/ I mean, as long as we want to check out scars in character, let's look at everyone who isn't perfect. Rebecca was certainly not the only non-perfect human being around that household.

This is completely and totally irrelevant, and just a deflection.

They did bring up Adam’s brush with the law when he was on the stand, and today they brought up Rebecca’s.

It goes to show character. Adam is on trial for killing Rebecca who’s death was ruled a suicide. Did he klll her or did she kill herself is really what is being decieded here.

Medicis and the case you refer to have nothing to do with ths case. The other two do.