Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #2

[Tortoise]

I just don't think a doctor would appraise parents late at night that their child might never walk or talk again. It seems irresponsible. I don't believe that is what JS said in the voicemail, especially since DS would probably remember being hysterical at the doctor and the doctor would probably remember her being hysterical too. I think JS has either fabricated or embellished that message to make the suicide scenario believable. He was vague before, why so clear now? I didn't pick up dishonesty as I was watching him but he has had a good while to think about what he would say in court, and it isn't hard really to get emotional about the memory of your child dying so that part wouldn't require any acting skills.

I think he just called her because that was the first chance he had to call her and chat away from the hospital. I think Rebecca was already dead by that time.

 

[MsFacetious]

Jonah has 4 children that we are aware of. The two older kids, Max and the toddler. Max still counts even though he died. Dina is still a Mom even though her only child is dead.

While I understand that it's reasonable to think a child did something they were not supposed to... I also think that Max not having a "risk taking" personality should be considered.

I have one child who I can see hanging from a chandelier, another child who wouldn't even stand under it and a third child that the jury is still out on. If nobody has come forward to say that Max was a reckless child, I find it less likely he'd try to ride his scooter down the banister, or whatever.

<modsnip>

 

[Morag]

Somewhere in this loooonnnggg thread, Adam said his parents didn’t want him to marry a non-Jewish person, IIRC. Why was it okay for Jonah? Or were both his wives Jewish?

 

[stmarysmead]

Given the scene of Max's fall, I find the probability that a 6-year-old with a scooter and no one's eyeballs on him for a few minutes, deciding with his 6-year-old mind to do something with the scooter on the stairs/banister he knew he shouldn't be doing, to be pretty high. To insinuate that's not what happened is to accuse either RZ or XZ of deliberately sending over him the banister - a very low probability but fits right in with all the Rebecca-bashing that has taken place since her death.

I find the probability that a woman, any woman, and especially a woman who was obviously very concerned about her appearance, would kill herself in the manner RZ was found, to be almost nil. I also find the probability that it's even physically possible she did that to herself very close to zero.

Further, there's a clear motive for killing RZ, and no motive for killing Max. According to JS, who several people here now feel is impeccably honest, RZ and Max had a close relationship, and he was not the Shacknai child RZ had issues with. XZ was a young teen at the time, so shall we accuse her of harboring the desire and physical capacity to toss the boy over the banister?

Imo, Max dying as the result of a homicide has a very low probability, while Rebecca dying as the result of a homicide has a very high probability. It's a false equivalence to compare the two deaths. They are intertwined, but in no way similar.

I understand that many of you have developed a strong emotional connection to the Zahau family and to Rebecca. But when this case began, to those of us who had no intimate knowledge of either family, this was just an intellectual discussion about the circumstances of two mysterious deaths. If you are not emotionally connected to one side or the other, discussing the facts and theories of the case will involve a back and forth exchange of theories and ideas.

I never knew any of these people. I never knew the Ramseys. I don’t know Brentley Gore’s stepfather who mercilessly beat him to death after years of professing his love and Christian faith on Facebook. Who knows if RZ loved Max? Or if JS loved RZ? Low probability means nothing. A moment of rage can overcome many an individual with life changing results.

Experts hired by the family have suggested Max was murdered. One Doctor at the hospital suggested that he may have been smothered. Because I’m not emotionally invested and did not know any of these people, I have considered the possibility that Max was murdered.

Experts have testified that RZ was murdered. Experts have testified she committed suicide. I don’t have the years long emotional commitment to this case so I’m watching the trial and weighing the evidence, as one might hope a juror might too.

I understand that the majority of this Board has come to a different conclusion long ago. But you may consider that not every juror will have your emotional connection to the Zahau family or Rebecca..Hopefully they do not feel any connection to Adam’s family either. Like me, they are listening and weighing the evidence.

Presenting a different point of view, duscussing unpleasant facts like the adultery or the theft are just truths that have evolved from testimony etc.. Websleuths has not decided to limit participation of this case to just Zahau supporters. A discussion means tolerance of others who do not, AT THIS POINT, share your point of view.

There are TWO mysterious deaths, two tragedies, and lots of unexplained issues on all sides.

 

[Jessica2012]

I understand that many of you have developed a strong emotional connection to the Zahau family and to Rebecca. But when this case began, to those of us who had no intimate knowledge of either family, this was just an intellectual discussion about the circumstances of two mysterious deaths. If you are not emotionally connected to one side or the other, discussing the facts and theories of the case will involve a back and forth exchange of theories and ideas.

I never knew any of these people. I never knew the Ramseys. I don&#8217;t know Brentley Gore&#8217;s stepfather who mercilessly beat him to death after years of professing his love and Christian faith on Facebook. Who knows if RZ loved Max? Or if JS loved RZ? Low probability means nothing. A moment of rage can overcome many an individual with life changing results.

Experts hired by the family have suggested Max was murdered. One Doctor at the hospital suggested that he may have been smothered. Because I&#8217;m not emotionally invested and did not know any of these people, I have considered the possibility that Max was murdered.

Experts have testified that RZ was murdered. Experts have testified she committed suicide. I don&#8217;t have the years long emotional commitment to this case so I&#8217;m watching the trial and weighing the evidence, as one might hope a juror might too.

I understand that the majority of this Board has come to a different conclusion long ago. But you may consider that not every juror will have your emotional connection to the Zahau family or Rebecca..Hopefully they do not feel any connection to Adam&#8217;s family either. Like me, they are listening and weighing the evidence.

Presenting a different point of view, duscussing unpleasant facts like the adultery or the theft are just truths that have evolved from testimony etc.. Websleuths has not decided to limit participation of this case to just Zahau supporters. A discussion means tolerance of others who do not, AT THIS POINT, share your point of view.

There are TWO mysterious deaths, two tragedies, and lots of unexplained issues on all sides.

Great post, stmarysmead! :bowdown:

 

[Imp]

Jonah has 4 children that we are aware of. The two older kids, Max and the toddler. Max still counts even though he died. Dina is still a Mom even though her only child is dead.

While I understand that it's reasonable to think a child did something they were not supposed to... I also think that Max not having a "risk taking" personality should be considered.

I have one child who I can see hanging from a chandelier, another child who wouldn't even stand under it and a third child that the jury is still out on. If nobody has come forward to say that Max was a reckless child, I find it less likely he'd try to ride his scooter down the banister, or whatever. <modsnip>

BBM. It's worth considering, however, 6-year-old brains don't contemplate risks. They think about what would be fun. Scooters are fun. Climbing and sliding on banisters is fun. Imo, there are very few normal, healthy 6 -year-old boys who aren't "risk takers" by definition.

I'm not sure why the scooter on the lower level, the chandelier also, and the child's condition don't immediately lend themselves to a high probability the scooter, the banister, and whatever actions Max took were involved in his fall.

<modsnip> All indications are Max had a tragic and ultimately fatal accident. It happens.

 

[Jessica2012]

No, being Christian is not all about organized Religion. I am Christian. I do not go to Church. A person doesn't have to go to Church every given Sunday and pray everyday to be Christian or Religious. If that's how you view Religion, that's fine, but assuming that everyone views and connects with Religion like that is not accurate.

Please reread my post. I did not say being a Christian is “all about” organized religion. I said “all about organized religion to some extent”

Church seems to be a large part of Rebecca’s parents faith. Is did not in Rebecca’s. When she and Jonah had a serious talk about what they believed during their first date, she seems to have made it clear she was not a practicing Christian and did not seem to profess she believed in Christ at all. That does not make her a bad person, it just doesn’t make her the person her family thought her to be.

 

[Mica]

BBM. It's worth considering, however, 6-year-old brains don't contemplate risks. They think about what would be fun. Scooters are fun. Climbing and sliding on banisters is fun. Imo, there are very few normal, healthy 6 -year-old boys who aren't "risk takers" by definition.

I'm not sure why the scooter on the lower level, the chandelier also, and the child's condition don't immediately lend themselves to a high probability the scooter, the banister, and whatever actions Max took were involved in his fall.

Imo, to search for culprits in the form of RZ, her younger sister, or the older S children is grasping. All indications are Max had a tragic and ultimately fatal accident. It happens.

Just an FYI .....Talking about a 6 year old taking risks!


Insane 6 Year Old Scooter Rider

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqOOF-5bQZg

 

[Imp]

They accepted $100,000 from Nina Romano&#8217;s insurance company. The company had decieded to pay the money to avoid (possible) years more of paying for litagation. The offer was made around the time Keith Greer would have known he was dropping the case against her and Dina Shacknai, but he accepted the money anyway.

Nina Romano made it clear that she opposed the payment, but had no say in the matter.

Do I understand you to mean Mr. Greer accepted money he shouldn't have?

 

[Imp]

I understand that many of you have developed a strong emotional connection to the Zahau family and to Rebecca. But when this case began, to those of us who had no intimate knowledge of either family, this was just an intellectual discussion about the circumstances of two mysterious deaths. If you are not emotionally connected to one side or the other, discussing the facts and theories of the case will involve a back and forth exchange of theories and ideas.

I never knew any of these people. I never knew the Ramseys. I don’t know Brentley Gore’s stepfather who mercilessly beat him to death after years of professing his love and Christian faith on Facebook. Who knows if RZ loved Max? Or if JS loved RZ? Low probability means nothing. A moment of rage can overcome many an individual with life changing results.

Experts hired by the family have suggested Max was murdered. One Doctor at the hospital suggested that he may have been smothered. Because I’m not emotionally invested and did not know any of these people, I have considered the possibility that Max was murdered.

Experts have testified that RZ was murdered. Experts have testified she committed suicide. I don’t have the years long emotional commitment to this case so I’m watching the trial and weighing the evidence, as one might hope a juror might too.

I understand that the majority of this Board has come to a different conclusion long ago. But you may consider that not every juror will have your emotional connection to the Zahau family or Rebecca..Hopefully they do not feel any connection to Adam’s family either. Like me, they are listening and weighing the evidence.

Presenting a different point of view, duscussing unpleasant facts like the adultery or the theft are just truths that have evolved from testimony etc.. Websleuths has not decided to limit participation of this case to just Zahau supporters. A discussion means tolerance of others who do not, AT THIS POINT, share your point of view.

There are TWO mysterious deaths, two tragedies, and lots of unexplained issues on all sides.

BBM. Do I understand you to mean that people who've been following this case since the deaths occurred, and who believe Rebecca was murdered, are basing their thoughts and opinions purely on emotion? You used the term so many times in your post, it almost seems as though you've decided anyone who doesn't believe the suicide theory is driven entirely by emotion. I don't believe that's true at all.

There's a natural tendency for most normal people to feel compassion for the dead victim, but it's actually the evidence, devoid of emotion, on and around RZ's dead body and the bizarre crime scene upstairs that tells the story of a murder. My guess is the jury, who will surely also feel compassion for the dead victim and her family but will also see the evidence as indicative of murder, will make the right call.

 

[Jessica2012]

Do I understand you to mean Mr. Greer accepted money he shouldn't have?

Yes, you understand correctly.

 

[Harmony 2]

The topic is the civil trial not Adam's home. Please get back on topic... fftopic:

 

[justice be served]

They accepted $100,000 from Nina Romano’s insurance company. The company had decieded to pay the money to avoid (possible) years more of paying for litagation. The offer was made around the time Keith Greer would have known he was dropping the case against her and Dina Shacknai, but he accepted the money anyway.

Nina Romano made it clear that she opposed the payment, but had no say in the matter.

It is the insurance company that bears the financial burden of defending the WDS and it is not unusual that they take the lead in deciding the financial settlement when a defendant is released from the suit. Greer and/or the family has every right to recover their attorneys' fees as per the settlement agreement and it's not unusual at all. In fact, I would hope that they did. BTW, does anyone have a link or is this just hearsay?

 

[Inparadise]

Somewhere in this loooonnnggg thread, Adam said his parents didn’t want him to marry a non-Jewish person, IIRC. Why was it okay for Jonah? Or were both his wives Jewish?

I know for certain that DS converted, and I believe that KS did as well: children are only considered Jewish if the mother is Jewish, and both GS and ES were Bat Mitzvahed and Bar Mitzvahed respectively.

 

[Harmony 2]

It is the insurance company that bears the financial burden of defending the WDS and it is not unusual that they take the lead in deciding the financial settlement when a defendant is released from the suit. Greer and/or the family has every right to recover their attorneys' fees as per the settlement agreement and it's not unusual at all. In fact, I would hope that they did. BTW, does anyone have a link or is this just hearsay?

It is brought up in the press conference.
Timestamp 23:50

https://youtu.be/Rgn2pkIj98U?t=23m50s

 

[stmarysmead]

BBM. Do I understand you to mean that people who've been following this case since the deaths occurred, and who believe Rebecca was murdered, are basing their thoughts and opinions purely on emotion? You used the term so many times in your post, it almost seems as though you've decided anyone who doesn't believe the suicide theory is driven entirely by emotion. I don't believe that's true at all.

There's a natural tendency for most normal people to feel compassion for the dead victim, but it's actually the evidence, devoid of emotion, on and around RZ's dead body and the bizarre crime scene upstairs that tells the story of a murder. My guess is the jury, who will surely also feel compassion for the dead victim and her family but will also see the evidence as indicative of murder, will make the right call.

No, that&#8217;s not what I meant and I appreciate the chance to clarify. I just mean that after weighing the facts and evidence, and coming to a conclusion, it is not unusual on a discussion Board, to have compassion (an emotion)and outrage (an emotion) begin to underscore the conversation. An impatience and annoyance with those who don&#8217;t see the evidence the way the majority see it begins to take hold. The longer the discussion goes on, as the wait for justice continues, this emotion increases.

I&#8217;ve been on many different discussions here at WS...sometimes siding with the majority and sometimes not. Do you disagree that there is a majority opinion here that favors the Zahau perspective? I&#8217;m NOT saying those opinions aren&#8217;t based on pereceived &#8220;fact&#8221; (as each poster perceives the &#8220;facts&#8221; to be ...they are. I&#8217;m just saying that those of us who are not yet in full agreement, or may not come to agreement, are not bashing or demeaning anyone. We just haven&#8217;t come to the same conclusions from the evidence available.

We are just discussing the case from the perspective of where our beliefs take us...at this point in time...about TWO mysterious deaths. There is no video of what happened to Max or to Rebecca. We are all free to interpret the evidence as the jury also will be.

Please dont interpret a different point of view as disrespect for your point of view or for either of the families or victims of these tragedies.

 

[Morag]

I know for certain that DS converted, and I believe that KS did as well: children are only considered Jewish if the mother is Jewish, and both GS and ES were Bat Mitzvahed and Bar Mitzvahed respectively.

Thanks. I&#8217;m a convert myself. Reform Judaism now considers children to be Jewish if either parent is, as long as the children are brought up exclusively as Jews, including being Bar Mitzvahed. I wonder if perhaps the age difference between Adam and his partner is what they really objected to? (or, of course, they might be Conservative or Orthodox)

 

[arielilane]

Does anybody know how far the hospital is from the mansion?

I always found it odd that JS stayed at the RMcD House that night as opposed to going home to shower, sleep, change. Did Dina also stay at the RMcD House?

Hey Pi2016,
I thought it was odd as well.
It's also odd that he didn't stay with Max or perhaps the doctors didn't allow it.
Wonder if he ever made a donation to R.McD for their support?

 

[bourne]

Please reread my post. I did not say being a Christian is &#8220;all about&#8221; organized religion. I said &#8220;all about organized religion to some extent&#8221;

Church seems to be a large part of Rebecca&#8217;s parents faith. Is did not in Rebecca&#8217;s. When she and Jonah had a serious talk about what they believed during their first date, she seems to have made it clear she was not a practicing Christian and did not seem to profess she believed in Christ at all. That does not make her a bad person, it just doesn&#8217;t make her the person her family thought her to be.

How do you know Rebecca's family does not know Rebecca doesn't attend regular church services? Appears you make a lot of faulty assumptions based on your own belief system and project them onto other people.

 

[Imp]

<snipped to address>

Do you disagree that there is a majority opinion here that favors the Zahau perspective? I&#8217;m NOT saying those opinions aren&#8217;t based on pereceived &#8220;fact&#8221; (as each poster perceives the &#8220;facts&#8221; to be ...they are. I&#8217;m just saying that those of us who are not yet in full agreement, or may not come to agreement, are not bashing or demeaning anyone. We just haven&#8217;t come to the same conclusions from the evidence available.

We are just discussing the case from the perspective of where our beliefs take us...at this point in time...about TWO mysterious deaths. There is no video of what happened to Max or to Rebecca. We are all free to interpret the evidence as the jury also will be.

Please dont interpret a different point of view as disrespect for your point of view or for either of the families or victims of these tragedies.

BBM #1: If by "favoring the Zahau perspective" you mean believing Rebecca was murdered and did not kill herself, then yes, I agree the majority of posters on these threads believe she was murdered and do not believe the SDSO suicide ruling.

BBM #2: "TWO mysterious" deaths is your opinion, of course. I noted from your previous response to me that you apparently don't believe in probabilities, however, I'll simply restate that imo, there's a high probability Max's death was the result of a tragic accident, and Rebecca's death was the result of a brutal murder.

And speaking of probabilities, I'm guessing I could fairly easily find statistics on how many boys under, say, age 10 are seriously/fatally injured in accidents each year, but I doubt I could find much of anything on the annual number of mentally competent, health-conscious, menstruating women of childbearing age who take off all their clothes, tie up their ankles and wrists using highly complex nautical knots, put a gag in their mouths and a noose around their necks, hogtie themselves, and dive off their rich boyfriend's balcony.