Found Deceased WY - Gabrielle ‘Gabby’ Petito, 22, Grand Teton National Park, 25 Aug 2021 #63

[Cinna]

I think it's a head versus heart thing.

For the record, I'm a law abiding person and everything I mentioned in my post was hypothetical. I was raised with a moral compass and a strong sense of right and wrong.

Whilst my head knows that morally and ethically it would be wrong to protect and shield a family member, it would be overruled by my heart, as it would be my instinct to protect and shield a person whom I loved more than anyone else on this earth.

I appreciate that I'm firmly in the minority with this point of view.

MOO

ITA.

 

[simon magus]

That's actually a really good question. It goes in my mental file cabinet along with other weird facts about Brian. Perhaps Brian was turning the van into his own thing. Perhaps Brian was turning the van into a rolling shrine. Perhaps Gabby bought the stickers as one of her last acts.

i don't see the venice, fl sticker on the van in the moab videos or the bethune's video, unless it was in another location and i missed it...if it was new, i wonder if it was purchased as he was returning to north port...moo

 

[dacjess]

Right...they demand responsibility for someone else's action all the while taking no responsibility for their own. Hypocrites. Using Gabby's death and other people's misery to unleash their own inner demons, thinking that's excusable in THEIR case.

I’m sorry, I’m not sure what you’re referencing? My post was in response to someone saying that people cannot control their rage. I simply do not agree that murder is an acceptable outcome for feeling rage.

 

[rleigh123]

Strack and McLane studied 100 women who reported being choked by their partners with bare hands, arms, or objects (eg, electrical cords, belts, ropes, bras, bathing suits). [14] Police officers reported no visible injuries in 62% of women, minor visible injury in 22%, and significant injury including red marks, bruises, or rope burns in the remaining 16%. Up to 50% of victims had symptomatic voice changes ranging from dysphonia to aphonia.
What are the indications of strangulation in victims of domestic violence?

Changes to the brain can occur as well, and it's cumulative.

It often goes undiagnosed.

 

[10ofRods]

IMHO, looking at different pics of BL, he doesn't look all that different with hair/no hair/hat.

It's. his eyebrows and eyeshape. If he wears sunglasses and any kind of head covering...he'll be hard to recognize, although I think anyone having an actual conversation with him would notice some tells, if they were at all familiar with this case. He will need to treat every person as someone who could turn him in, so if he's still out there, he's got a lot of lonely living to do - like that Mountain Man guy in Utah (who finally got caught after, what, seven years?)

 

[EvieIvyOver]

Yes, it depends on what you are talking about.

Here I feel it is Exact because we are looking at broken bones, results of lab tests, DNA test, weight of the heart, weight of the brain, signs of internal bleeding which mean there is a pool of blood.
How are these going to change because of interpretation differences?

I don't know. But Dr. Blue said the signs of strangulation were not easily observable, which leaves it open for the possibility that someone may have interpreted a small detail to indicate strangulation--an interpretation, vs. a clear piece of evidence. I don't know, it's just a feeling I had that this was an educated guess, not a revelation. That's why the reference to DV bothers me.

 

[Which_pancake]

No wonder it looked so clean & uncluttered (lol). Thanks…. Answers that for me!

Yes the Ls garage is definitely full of stuff in other images!

 

[Newsjunkiejen]

Good afternoon everyone!

Now that we know the cause of death was manual strangulation, I wanted to add some additional information about what could happen next. Hang on, this is going to be a long (but hopefully informative) post.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer or forensic pathologist, nor do I claim to know exactly how the autopsy was conducted in this case. These are my own opinions.

Determination of manual strangulation
Upon receiving the body of a victim who died by strangulation, it is up to the coroner to determine the method of strangulation used. Autopsies in all three forms of strangulation––ligature, manual, and hanging––commonly reveal hemorrhages in the soft tissue of the neck as well as fractures of the hyoid bone and/or the thyroid cartilage, all of which can be used to reconstruct the method used and the sequence of events which transpired (Gascho et al. 85). Petechial bleeding (i.e., subcutaneous bleeding in the eyelids) is also typical in all three types of strangulation (Deininger-Czermak et al. 99). Interestingly, the presence of lymph node hemorrhage is a distinct diagnostic sign indicating manual strangulation as the manner of death as it is not present in cases of hanging (Yen et al. 509).

Given that all three types of strangulation share so many commonalities, additional examination in the form of postmortem CT and MRI scans are frequently used to more accurately determine the manner of death, which is what happened in Gabby's case. In conjunction with the standard autopsy measures, Gabby's autopsy consisted of a whole-body CT scan as well as examinations by both a forensic pathologist and forensic anthropologist. Postmortem CT scans are used to detect pathologies, injuries, fractures, and foreign bodies while postmortem MRI scans are employed to get a more detailed look at soft tissue lesions such as bruises (Gascho et al. 85). The fact that the Teton County Coroner undertook a postmortem CT rather than an MRI suggests to me that the autopsy revealed a fracture(s) in her neck which conclusively suggested manual strangulation, since MRIs are usually relied upon in suspicious cases (Deininger-Czermak et al. 102).

Possible physical evidence implicating Brian
Unfortunately, despite the up-close-and-personal nature of manual strangulation, evidence such as hand marks and fingerprints are difficult to match and are generally inconclusive in the absence of distinctive physical abnormalities (Kristensen, Lynnerup, & Sejrsen 383). Additionally, in 55.9% of fatal manual or ligature strangulation cases the associated violence is insufficient to produce forensic evidence aside from a mildly disturbed scene (Cartwright 297)

Although it is possible Brian's DNA was found on Gabby's neck, due to the fickle nature of DNA evidence and the conditions in which her body was left it is unlikely his DNA will be recovered. DNA transferred from the offender to the victim and vice versa can be recovered and amplified for at least 10 days after the contact, but conclusive identification is usually hindered by the presence of secondary/tertiary DNA profiles (Rutty 170). In addition to the offender's DNA being transferred to the victim's neck during manual strangulation, the offender's DNA and third party (or more) DNA from direct contact and/or contact with an object is also deposited, making it next to impossible to obtain conclusive results (Rutty 172). For example, one experimental study found that during a simulated assault, 23% of neck areas swabbed showed nondonor alleles and 5% showed six or more nondonor alleles (Graham and Rutty 1077).

If Brian strangled Gabby in the past, there is a possibility that her body "recorded" that history of domestic violence. Increased mobility of one side of the hyoid bone without associated hemorrhage visible to the naked eye points to a prior strangulation incident which can be confirmed by using microscopy to identify the healing fracture (Davison and Williams 310). The discovery of such a fracture would help establish a pattern of abusive behavior beyond the Moab traffic stop.

The legal case against Brian
Yesterday on this thread there was some debate over whether or not manual strangulation is prima facie evidence of premeditation, but unfortunately there isn't a clear-cut answer to this. As part of their murder statutes, 29 states, the District of Columbia, and the federal government all employ a premeditation or deliberation formula (Ferzan 84).

In 1994, the Court of Appeal in San Francisco held that while manual strangulation may demonstrate deliberation, "there is nothing about it that inherently demonstrates premeditation" and reduced the first-degree murder conviction of a man convicted of strangling his girlfriend. In another instance of a domestic violence-related fatal strangling of 32-year-old Pennsylvania woman, a judge rejected the prosecution's plea for a first-degree murder
conviction and reduced it to third-degree despite noting that the strangulation pointed to premeditation.

On the other hand, courts have previously recognized that premeditation does not have a time constraint, and have held that even seemingly instantaneous decisions can be classified as premeditated. In the West Virginia case of State v. Schrader, the victim was suddenly stabbed fifty-one times by the defendant following an argument in the gun shop over the authenticity of a German sword. The trial judge informed the jury that "to constitute a willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing, it is not necessary that the intention to kill should exist for any set length of time prior to the actual killing" (Pauley 151-2). The defendant appealed his conviction on the grounds that his crime did not qualify as premeditated, but the West Virginia Supreme Court of Appeals affirmed the conviction on the grounds that "the mental process necessary to constitute 'willful, deliberate, and premeditated' murder can be accomplished. . . in the proverbial 'twinkling of an eye.'"

When it comes to federal law, serious theoretical differences exist within each circuit as to what is considered premeditation (Oberlander 1213). The Federal Sentencing Guidelines established with the passage of the Sentencing Reform Act of 1984 create a "base offense level" which serves as the applicable, legally-binding guideline for a particular offense that acts as the basis for subsequent calculations, but this does not come into play until sentencing (Anderson, Kling, and Stith 279). For a federal felony-murder conviction, codified in 18 U.S.C. § 1111, the government must prove the death of another person and a culpable mens rea ("malice aforethought") for the death were elements of the offense, something which could be difficult in Brian Laundrie's case barring additional evidence such as phone records (Noyes 536).

Sources
Anderson, James M., Jeffrey R. Kling, and Kate Stith. "Measuring Interjudge Sentencing Disparity: Before and After the Federal Sentencing Guidelines." Journal of Law and Economics 42, no. S1 (1999): 271-308

Carmichael, Heather, Ethan Jamison, Kirk A. Bol, Robert McIntyre Jr, and Catherine G. Velopulos. "Premeditated versus “passionate”: patterns of homicide related to intimate partner violence." Journal of Surgical Research 230 (2018): 87-93.

Cartwright, A. J. "Degrees of Violence and Blood Spattering associated with Manual and Ligature Strangulation: a retrospective study." Medicine, Science and the Law 35, no. 4 (1995): 294-302.

Craig, John. "Man faces murder charges for death: Victim's family thinks she was raped, killing was planned." Spokesman-Review [Spokane], 5 March 2004, pg. B4.

"DA blasts ruling on killing." San Francisco Examiner, 21 October 1994, pg. P-8.

Davison, Andrew M., and E. John Williams. "Microscopic evidence of previous trauma to the hyoid bone in a homicide involving pressure to the neck." Forensic Science, Medicine, and Pathology 8, no. 3 (2012): 307-311.

Deininger-Czermak, Eva, Jakob Heimer, Carlo Tappero, Michael J. Thali, and Dominic Gascho. "Postmortem Magnetic Resonance Imaging and Postmortem Computed Tomography in Ligature and Manual Strangulation." American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology 41, no. 2 (2020): 97-103. [WARNING: Graphic images]

Ferzan, Kimberly Kessler. "Plotting Premeditation's Demise." Law and Contemporary Problems 75, no. 2 (2012): 83-108.

Gascho, Dominic, Jakob Heimer, Carlo Tappero, and Sarah Schaerli. "Relevant findings on postmortem CT and postmortem MRI in hanging, ligature strangulation and manual strangulation and their additional value compared to autopsy–a systematic review." Forensic Science, Medicine and Pathology 15, no. 1 (2019): 84-92.

Graham, Eleanor Alison May, and Guy Nathan Rutty. "Investigation into “Normal” Background DNA on Adult Necks: Implications for DNA Profiling of Manual Strangulation Victims." Journal of Forensic Sciences 53, no. 5 (2008): 1074-1082.

Hathaway, Ivan J. "Prosecutors to seek death penalty for killer." Tampa Tribune, 30 March 1989, pg. 1-P.

Kristensen, Mie E., Niels Lynnerup, and Birgitte Sejrsen. "Comparison of Handmarks in Manual Strangulation: An Experimental Study." Journal of Forensic Sciences 51, no. 2 (2006): 381-385.

Malloy, Daniel. "Boyfriend found guilty of third-degree murder." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 17 June 2009, pgs. B-1, B-2. [part 1] [part 2]

Mooney, Michael G. "Judge orders Mouser to trial: Bail reduced by half for accused murderer." Modesto Bee, 20 February 1998, pgs. A-1, A-14. [part 1] [part 2]

Noyes, Henry S. "Felony-Murder Doctrine Through the Looking Glass." Indiana Law Review 69, no. 2 (1994): 533-579.

Oberlander, Sharon L. "Departing the Heartland: Should Premeditation Serve as the Basis for Departure from the Federal Sentencing Guidelines for Second-Degree Murder?." Boston University Law Review 78 (1998): 1211-1234.

Pauley, Matthew A. "Murder by Premeditation." American Criminal Law Review 36, no. 2 (1999): 145-169.

Rutty, G. N. "An investigation into the transference and survivability of human DNA following simulated manual strangulation with consideration of the problem of third party contamination." International Journal of Legal Medicine 116, no. 3 (2002): 170-173.

Yen, Kathrin, Michael J. Thali, Emin Aghayev, Christian Jackowski, Wolf Schweitzer, Chris Boesch, Peter Vock, Richard Dirnhofer, and Martin Sonnenschein. "Strangulation Signs: Initial Correlation of MRI, MSCT, and Forensic Neck Findings." Journal of Magnetic Resonance Imaging 22, no. 4 (2005): 501-510.

Fascinating and informative. Thank you.

 

[bestill]

I think at 33 secs on this video - black and orange items, middle bottom of picture.

I believe that is their equipment.

 

[Which_pancake]

I don’t know about that. It seems pretty severe to me. In the following link this pathologist lays out the scenario (prior to autopsy results release) indicating that they can tell if the manner of death is strangulation even 25 days later.

Forensic Pathologist Who Conducted Independent Autopsies of George Floyd, Jeffrey Epstein Breaks Down Findings in Gabby Petito Case

And here is another troubling idea:

GABBY Petito’s autopsy likely showed “glaring” injuries and there remains a possibility she was neglected and starved if her relationship with Brian Laundrie was abusive, a forensic expert says.

Gabby may have been neglected & starved & autopsy likely shows 'glaring' injury

I believe these are speculative opinions - I don't think either of these people have seen any actual evidence from GPs autopsy. MOO

 

[Barbie619]

I just want to encourage everyone to watch Entin's interview with the coroner, it's on at 5:40 ET today. It might help clear up some questions about how he arrived at his findings.

https://twitter.com/BrianEntin/status/1448380501014765574

Thank you! Also tonight at 8 est on ID Investigation channel will be a Gabby Petito special.

 

[kittythehare]

I don't know. But Dr. Blue said the signs of strangulation were not easily observable, which leaves it open for the possibility that someone may have interpreted a small detail to indicate strangulation--an interpretation, vs. a clear piece of evidence. I don't know, it's just a feeling I had that this was an educated guess, not a revelation. That's why the reference to DV bothers me.

The DV comment is clarified in this short interview with AC
https://twitter.com/AC360/status/1448079789059944451?s=20

 

[SouthAussie]

I think it's a head versus heart thing.

For the record, I'm a law abiding person and everything I mentioned in my post was hypothetical. I was raised with a moral compass and a strong sense of right and wrong.

Whilst my head knows that morally and ethically it would be wrong to protect and shield a family member, it would be overruled by my heart, as it would be my instinct to protect and shield a person whom I loved more than anyone else on this earth.

I appreciate that I'm firmly in the minority with this point of view.

MOO

There are a lot of 'certain' statements here about what any of us would do if our child got themselves into a lot of serious trouble, but I hope none of us ever needs to find out if that is what we actually do.

If a child said "I am leaving, I did something really wrong, please don't try to follow me" and they said that on about the 11th/12th/13th September, I think it is possible that some parents would just bide their time for a few days and anguish about what to do - before taking the action of reporting their child as missing.

 

[ShadyLady]

On the chan 5 video, I dont think Gabby was where everyone was standing in a circle. I dont think they would get that close to her body, and dont think they would covered evidence like that. The black cover. And the photo of where her step dad put the stones looks like there were some larger trees surrounding her. But, I did not watch it live.
The boots there? Off her feet? She must have been there long enough to take them off.

And single flipflops at van? Brian's?

 

[NuttMegg]

I believe these are speculative opinions - I don't think either of these people have seen any actual evidence from GPs autopsy. MOO

"Starved" (headline) or possibly "deprived of food" (words in article) seems a little over the top, given that they just came back from an expensive restaurant, if she was killed on the 27th as I would guess. And spent 6 hours in a food place in Moab, before. IMO

Gabby may have been neglected & starved & autopsy likely shows 'glaring' injury

"“Let's think about it here. They've been traveling about. Is there such a symmetry in this relationship where she's been deprived of food?”"

 

[Mom24]

BBM

When did we find that out? (The bolded part) If there are published reports I think they can be cited here even when mental health is mentioned.
JMO

with the way people today self diagnose, I'm inclined to disagree.

 

[Luna20]

What video of Gabby is floating around that @Arkay referenced from @imstilla.grandma?

 

[jjonez]

Where can I find this photo? I can probably answer for you in a heart beat.

Answer what? I don’t have a question. I was offering my opinion on what I saw.

but to answer yours, any version of the ksl 5 chopper footage. And I am referring to gear belonging to the team on the ground, not hiking/camping gear, if that’s what you’re referring to. JMO

 

[Panda1989]

There are a lot of 'certain' statements here about what any of us would do if our child got themselves into a lot of serious trouble, but I hope none of us ever needs to find out if that is what we actually do.

If a child said "I am leaving, I did something really wrong, please don't try to follow me" and they said that on about the 11th/12th/13th September, I think it is possible that some parents would just bide their time for a few days and anguish about what to do - before taking the action of reporting their child as missing.

I think I'd have a hard time handing any of my family over also. I know my father would hide me, he always tells me right, wrong, or indifferent you are MY KID. Not that it's the moral thing to do. But I can't imagine handing my son/daughter over either. On the flip side, I also can't imagine if it were MY daughter this happened to how I'd be tearing down the country trying to find who harmed her. So I'm very conflicted all around. I pray to God none of us ever have to deal with something like this. And I pray to God the Petito family finds comfort and peace. I know I am probably a minority in this as well. I accept it.

 

[kittythehare]

"Starved" seems a little over the top, given that they just came back from an expensive restaurant, if she was killed on the 27th as I would guess. And spent 6 hours in a food place in Moab, before. IMO

speculation at it's finest from the not so sunny sun..