GUILTY Yoselyn Ortega charged with 2 counts ea-1st and 2nd Degree Murder of Krim Children

[Chewy]

BBM. Yes, that's fair. And true. I don't think everyone sees it as a class issue. The reason I made that connection, however, is that I have been seeing posts from the very beginning that immediately and easily assumed the nanny was seething with rage and jealousy and that motivated her. I now see posts that assume she just wanted to lie around all day and do nothing and savagely butchered two babies because she couldn't. How the heck can we jump to such conclusions unless we see people like this nanny as inherently jealous and usually hiding anger at what they don't have? Because gruesomely murdering two babies in one's care in such a manner (stabbing to death) is so unusual, so rare.

What does the bolded even mean? Stabbing someone to death is an act of rage or perhaps an attempt at a cover up. We don't necessarily know all the details in the case and for all we know the nanny got caught by the mother coming home. Perhaps she had anticipated the mother staying until the end of the class and then coming home.

<modsnip>. But it seems to me that the nanny never left the apartment and killed them earlier in the day. I do not believe the nanny was in the elevator with the children a half an hour prior to the murders. I think it was a different nanny.

• The witness described the nanny as fat and that she didn't look anything like the nanny in the photograph in the paper.
  
• Other witnesses have stated that the nanny lost a lot of weight and didn't look well. They all identified the nanny as the one in the photograph in the paper.
  
  
• The doorman states he never saw the nanny leave the apartment that day. He also states he never saw them come into the building or get on the elevator
  
  
• The children were described as awake in the elevator and the nanny stated she killed Lito while he was sleeping.
  
  
• The witness didn't recognize the children until hours later

I think this is a case of mistaken identity and a different nanny and children were on the elevator. IMHO based on the facts.



I have been one of the ones who pointed to rage, but rage and jealousy against happiness and a "charmed life." Mrs Krim certainly had one up until that point.


There have been numerous cases of rage and jealousy directed at women in the world by other women. Our media is practically based on ripping other women to shreds. So I don't think this is just a numbers game about haves and have nots. I think the jealousy was about happiness. That's why I found it appalling to see so much misinformation being thrown around about their "life of luxury."


It seems to me the nanny may have been intending to kill all of them. The lights were out in the apartment when the mother came in and perhaps the nanny wanted to lure her in and kill her too, but as someone else pointed out the mothers screams where so loud and devasting that the nanny couldn't do it.

For all we know she could have expected the mother to rush to the children in the bathtub where the mother would then be cornered and on her knees and the nanny could have stabbed her in the back. But the mother didn't do this, she ran away from her children and out into the hallway.

So perhaps there's an entirely different story line going on here.

 

[songline]

So what happened to her money? She had enough money to rent her own apt while working for the Krims. Why didn't she find another apt when she left the Bronx? This doesn't make since, if she can afford one apt while employed as a nanny, she could afford another apt in the same price range. UNLESS she started spending her money in another way.

I had a wall street guy as a client get turned down for a rental apartment due to credit. His income was in access of a million dollars. he credit was so low it shocked me. this was not the only time this had happened but this one was really making a lot of money, he should have owned but could not do that either.
Just because she had some bookkeeping job does not mean she managed money... I think she wanted to live like the Krim's on a shoe string.

 

[songline]

Agreed. My mom had a friend that passed recently and they asked everyone to donate to a specific charity instead if buying flowers. Maybe the Krimms did something similar and asked friends to donate to this instead.

TRUE, a request was made that flowers not be sent to the memorial.

 

[Hickory Born]

What does the bolded even mean? Stabbing someone to death is an act of rage or perhaps an attempt at a cover up. We don't necessarily know all the details in the case and for all we know the nanny got caught by the mother coming home. Perhaps she had anticipated the mother staying until the end of the class and then coming home.
<modsnip> But it seems to me that the nanny never left the apartment and killed them earlier in the day.

I have been one of the ones who pointed to rage, but rage and jealousy against happiness and a "charmed life." Mrs Krim certainly had one up until that point.


There have been numerous cases of rage and jealousy directed at women in the world by other women. Our media is practically based on ripping other women to shreds. So I don't think this is just a numbers game about haves and have nots. I think the jealousy was about happiness. That's why I found it appalling to see so much misinformation being thrown around about their "life of luxury."

Please allow me to debate the above statement.

1. Why in world would Ms Krim stay at the dance lesson when Lulu wasn't there?

2." ...the nanny never left the apt and killed them earlier in the day." I feel for certain that Ms Krim was in the apt packing up Nessie's swimsuit (or possibly putting it on her, under her clothing). Nessie's lesson was at 3:30pm.

3. I don't doubt for one second songline seeing them on the elevator around 5pm! The question is: where were Leo,Lulu, & the nanny from 3:15 to 5pm?
Lulu got out of school at 3:15pm according to the PS 87 website. http://www.ps87.info/site_res_view_template.aspx?id=37fb6a5f-4a93-4a33-8f26-8cd668200805. We do NOT know what time Lulu's dance lesson was...was it from 4-5pm and Ms. Krim was to meet them at the dance studio after class?

4. "Charmed life." From my own experience having 2 children in diapers at the same time, that is NO Charmed Life, no matter how much help you have!

 

[Chewy]

YO does not sound "irrational." She doesn't sound paranoid. She sounds instead like she considers HERSELF the victim, not those slaughtered babies. "Marina knows what happened."....I guess that's her way of blaming the bereaved Mother.

She obviously has a very high opinion of herself. No Doubt she believes if she gets the right jury she'll be acquitted and given a ticker tape parade down Fifth Ave. A new heroine of the downtrodden masses.

You know, that's what Tom Cruise said about Nicole Kidman when he blindsided her with a divorce and took her kids. Definitely angry not psychotic. IMO

 

[Chewy]

Please allow me to debate the above statement.

1. Why in world would Ms Krim stay at the dance lesson when Lulu wasn't there?

2." ...the nanny never left the apt and killed them earlier in the day." I feel for certain that Ms Krim was in the apt packing up Nessie's swimsuit (or possibly putting it on her, under her clothing). Nessie's lesson was at 3:30pm.

3. I don't doubt for one second songline seeing them on the elevator around 5pm! The question is: where were Leo,Lulu, & the nanny from 3:15 to 5pm?
Lulu got out of school at 3:15pm according to the PS 87 website. http://www.ps87.info/site_res_view_template.aspx?id=37fb6a5f-4a93-4a33-8f26-8cd668200805. We do NOT know what time Lulu's dance lesson was...was it from 4-5pm and Ms. Krim was to meet them at the dance studio after class?

4. "Charmed life." From my own experience having 2 children in diapers at the same time, that is NO Charmed Life, no matter how much help you have!

Yes it is if you love children. Sure it is. I had two kids in diapers at the same time and I loved my life. But I can see that there are a variety of opinions out there. But diapers aside, she has a nice apartment, is a beautiful woman who is skinny even after three kids, has a successful husband and three beautiful children. Seems pretty good to me.

Also about the dance lesson. I have seen two conflicting reports on this. It was my understanding that Mrs Krim was at the POOL not the dance class.

If someone could straighten out that detail it would be much appreciated. I still haven't made that clear.


Also I am not mentioning names so please lets just use witness. I would like to discuss this case the same way we would discuss any other case.

The nanny described on the elevator was described as very fat. This was mentioned very clearly. It was also stated by the witness that the picture used in the paper was absolutely Not the nanny that was on the elevator. Not only that, elevator witness stated that the police came to their house and showed them several different pictures of the nanny and that the elevator witness told the police that none of them were the nanny in the elevator.

The nanny is described by the different witnesses saying she lost a lot of weight and didn't look well. Not that she had gained weight from the picture.

Other witnesses who knew the nanny well stated she was friendly and gave no indication that there was a problem.

Elevator witness describes her as cold and withdrawn.

Doorman says he did not see the nanny leave the apartment at all that day and that he did not see her come in and get on the elevator. I would trust that the doorman whose job is to watch who comes and goes would know what the nanny looked like as opposed to a neighbor who was not that close with the family. The elevator witness didn't recognize the children as the Krim children until the next day.

To me a logical conclusion is that this is a case of mistaken identity. And it is a very important consideration because if it wasn't the same nanny then the timeline in the case is completely different.

 

[songline]

I think it's beautiful. It shows the selflessness and grace of Lulu and leo's parents. At a time of such utter horror, they have the capacity to think of other children. Wow.

THEY ARE AMAZING and they were amazing at the memorial the love was felt everywhere. So were the tears....


My take is that she is insane. No amount of anger would cause a person to stab to death their employer's innocent children and then stab themselves in the neck.

This murder and suicide attempt does not follow the MO of any rage killing that is unaccompanied by serious, mental illness. It just doesn't. People who have hatred of their employers try to kill their employers. Nannies or other childcare workers who have rage against the children (or the parents) generally beat the child to death and then try to cover it up by saying the kid fell or something.

I don't think pure evil is the excuse for this either. I know that won't be a popular opinion but it is mine. Evil people who kill usually do not commit suicide unless they are related to the parents or the children of the victim, or to the victim (s), romantically involved with the parents of the victim or the victim (in the case of adults), molesting the victim, or unless they are narcissistic, dissatisfied, disgruntled creeps who feel life has nothing left to offer and they want to go out in a blaze of glory by taking down as many innocent people as they can before they themselves die, in a huge gun or bomb massacre. I do not feel this woman matches any of those scenarios.

I think she is completely mentally ill.

But before you start shouting that I believe this woman isn't culpable, I don't. I think mentally ill people are only not culpable if they are so insane that they either did not know what they were doing (thought they were squeezing a lemon, not strangling someone) or had no idea that what they were doing was wrong (were so psychotic that they believed the victim was Satan and they were saving the world). This is the legal definition of insanity and most insane people who commit violent crimes were not legally insane when they committed them.

I just don't believe that, unless a person is so mentally ill that they are slapping feces on themselves and/or trying, indiscriminately, to kill everyone or anyone in their path, that they lack choice in what they are doing.

So, while I don't think "pure evil" explains a person like this (I think that definition is more for people like joe duncan), I do think a person like this has the ability and thus, responsibility to mitigate against whatever psychotic voices are in their heads and get anyone around them out of harm's way, with the last ounce of strength in their bodies. I think this woman planned, to some degree,w hat she was going to do, knew it was wrong and should never see the outside world again. But, I do think insanity was the primary motivation - not evil, rage or revenge.



This is sick. It is so wrong, so heartless to use those angels' photos in an effort to get the nanny off. I wish FB could be prompted to force them to take that down. It is a massive slap in the face to their agonized parents and loved ones. Disgusting.

BBM: I have an MI daughter and have been to many courses on MI, support groups, walks to raise money, talks to change laws etc....

I can tell you for sure that I heard this very often from MI people sharing that they knew they did bad things, they knew it when they were doing it, and during the course of doing something bad. They knew that may have even landed them in jail, they knew they may get in trouble.
I can say with certainty that most MI people DO know what they are doing, but are devoid of feeling for others. (missing a few sensitivity chips)

 

[Native New Yorker]

I agree that it may well have been a different nanny and kids in the elevator, otherwise the time line just would not fit.

We really have very few facts in this case, and I am afraid we just have to be patient.

It seems logical that she killed Leo while he was sleeping, which would have been easier and quieter.

We need to stick to logic, and the few facts that we have.

Witness statements are often not reliable, as much as we would like them to be...so I never count those as facts.

My opinion only

 

[songline]

Do we have a detailed account of the severity of YO's wounds? The reason I ask is that, when I first saw pictures of Darlie Routier's wounds, I thought it was impossible for them to be self-inflicted. Learning more about the evidence in that case has made me rethink that opinion.

I've always wondered if YO's intentions were to have self-inflicted knife wounds, but the mom returned earlier than she expected and she stabbed herself in the mom's presence in an act of desperation.

Perhaps her resentment and revenge weren't the only motives in this crime. Perhaps she planned to blame it on an intruder, hoping that an outpouring of sympathy for her as the only surviving victim might lead to financial gain. Her statements to detectives sound too cold and calculating to be blamed on mental illness IMO.

I basically do not care about her wounds, and think she should have finished the job. She is a monster of the worst type.

 

[Hickory Born]

Yes it is if you love children. Sure it is. I had two kids in diapers at the same time and I loved my life. But I can see that there are a variety of opinions out there. But diapers aside, she has a nice apartment, is a beautiful woman who is skinny even after three kids, has a successful husband and three beautiful children. Seems pretty good to me.

Also about the dance lesson. I have seen two conflicting reports on this. It was my understanding that Mrs Krim was at the POOL not the dance class.

If someone could straighten out that detail it would be much appreciated. I still haven't made that clear.


Also I am not mentioning names so please lets just use witness. I would like to discuss this case the same way we would discuss any other case.

The nanny described on the elevator was described as very fat. This was mentioned very clearly. It was also stated by the witness that the picture used in the paper was absolutely Not the nanny that was on the elevator. Not only that, elevator witness stated that the police came to their house and showed them several different pictures of the nanny and that the elevator witness told the police that none of them were the nanny in the elevator.

The nanny is described by the different witnesses saying she lost a lot of weight and didn't look well. Not that she had gained weight from the picture.

Other witnesses who knew the nanny well stated she was friendly and gave no indication that there was a problem.

Elevator witness describes her as cold and withdrawn.

Doorman says he did not see the nanny leave the apartment at all that day and that he did not see her come in and get on the elevator. I would trust that the doorman whose job is to watch who comes and goes would know what the nanny looked like as opposed to a neighbor who was not that close with the family. The elevator witness didn't recognize the children as the Krim children until the next day.

To me a logical conclusion is that this is a case of mistaken identity. And it is a very important consideration because if it wasn't the same nanny then the timeline in the case is completely different.

I seriously question the doorman's statement as you posted above. One reason I searched PS 87 website is: it would have been impossible for Ms Krim to be 2 places at once...picking up Lulu from school at 3:15pm and walking Nessie to swim class at 3:15.

 

[songline]

I think, often, that we ascribe mental illness to acts that we just cannot begin to inagine, that we cannot begin to conceive of even being possible - this crime is one of those that is, literally, unimaginable and inconceivable.

Because there is no way that someone who is sane - like us - could do this.

In giving her a label of mentally ill, we are giving her a space to exist...a way to not justify her actions exactly, but make it more comprehensible to *us*. It makes it easier to live with this crime, and to go about our business - getting babysitters, having workers/service people in our home - go about our daily lives because it's only insane people who do this kind of thing.

It's for us, those of us who cannot begin to even consider that this is a 'real' crime, that someone who is just like us (e.g. sane) can do this.

I agree, that someone who murders someone else in cold blood is not at all like me. But that doesn't make them mentally ill; it just means that they're not like me.

I don't believe that YO is mentally ill, and I fully believe that she will be held accountable for these horrific, unspeakable crimes. I also believe that no matter what we, as a society, do to her, God will exact a far more punitive judgment than ever we can begin to do.

I pray for these little children's souls, for healing and acceptance of the parents that this happened, and for our own Songline, who witnessed this, and who will forever have this in her heart and mind; for all those I pray.

Please note that I don't pray that God do something to her. I have FULL FAITH that He absolutely will, in His time and His manner; and I hold fast to the phrase "suffer the little children to come to me" that Lulu and Leo are in Jesus' Arms, safe from all harm, in eternal joy and peace.

Best-
Herding Cats

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


GREAT POST

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:​

 

[songline]

I question whether little Leo was really asleep. Songline saw him & his sister in the elevator with the nanny a mere 30 min or less from the time of the murder. How realistic is it that he went right down to sleep?

I don't trust this woman's version of events.

I do understand anger and resentment and wanting to gain some power in a relationship with a person who is perceived to be or actually is the cause of ongoing conflict, as that's a normal human feeling and one most of us have felt, but I do not understand violence or the taking of any lives, especially of innocent victims. This woman could have done a hundred other things to get her "revenge" that wouldn't have caused such devastation and the ruination of so many lives. Not that I condone revenge or any criminal act, but she did have other options.

Had she stolen some things to sell, robbed a bank, or something along those lines there would at least be some logic to her actions and actions correlating to her area of stress (the money issue). Wrong, yes, but not complete devastation. She went zero to 60 (so to speak) apparently without considering what else she could do that wouldn't hurt anyone physically and land her in prison without the possibility of parole. Crazy AND Dumb. Not a good combo.

He was sleepy (eyes not wide open, kind of droopy) opend his eyes and smiled when Lulu and I interacted. so he could have been sleeping a few minuts later. DONT KNOW.

 

[Chewy]

Obviously she wasn't picking up Lulu from school. It could be that the nanny picked up Lulu from school and took her home and killed them earlier in the day.

Perhaps the doorman didn't notice her coming in earlier. But I certainly think if the kids were found murdered a half an hour after they walked in the door he would have remembered it. If the nanny had just come in and Mrs Krim asked him if the nanny had come or gone why in the world would he say no, if they had just a half an hour walked passed him.

Children tend to be quite noticeable when coming or going.

I also would like someone to clarify where the mother was. Because I do believe that they were going to the pool. But I could be wrong about that.

But I don't understand why if a witnesses declares for days that the nanny in the elevator was a different nanny having been shown many pictures of her that people wouldn't even consider that maybe the elevator witness saw a different nanny.

To me it's the most obvious conclusion.


Also anyone who has ever brought a kid home from an outing who is "falling asleep" knows that walking in the door will most likely wake up the kid. This is why so many parents often drive around to be sure a kid is asleep in their car seat.

A kid does not go from droopy eyed to sound asleep to the degree that he doesn't wake up when his throat is slit in a matter of a few minutes. In addition Mrs. Krim seemed to have a very scheduled day with her kids. It makes absolutely no sense that Litos napping would correspond to the nanny having to leave the house again to take Lulu back out.

 

[Hickory Born]

I just googled YMCAs in NYC. The closest one I could find to the Krim's apt is located at 5 W 63rd. If that is where Nessie took her swim lesson, it would be approx 12 blocks SOUTH from the Krims apt.

PS 87 school is located at 160 W 78th...approx 3 blocks NORTH of the Krim's apt.

IMO the nanny and Leo went to pick up Lulu at school while Ms. Krim was taking Nessie to swim.

 

[songline]

I know it's been determined that the media has reported a lot of bologna, but I do recall reading somewhere that Mrs. Krim received a phone call from the nanny that she was going straight home? That the swim instructor even stated that Mrs. Krim told her bye and didn't seem nervous or like anything was wrong. I only read that once. Not sure where. Anyone else recall that? IF that was the case, then yes, I do believe she planned this and planned on MK coming in and finding them before knifing herself.

Then why did Marina run home?

 

[songline]

I'm sorry, maybe this is just an Eastern thing. Why isn't a burial mentioned? When I think of memorial, I think of a wake, which is a gathering of the family to view the body or just visit together before the actual burial, which usually takes place the next day after a separate, more formal service.

It is hush hush - that is the way the family wants it.
even the memorial with invites - there had to be a thousand people.
IMAGINE if it was open to the public?
It was BY PRIVET INVITATION ONLY as is everything else.
(unless it is done by the building the school, or the neighborhood)

 

[songline]

Where is Songline? I would like to ask her if Leo was sleeping in his stroller when they were in the elevator together...

Dozzing and smiling.

 

[songline]

I have been following since this happened and then Sandy happened and I could not get here.This is such a tragic loss of two beautiful children,IMO just because they were born to well off parents and that is just horrendous to me. I am so sorry this tragedy has touched our own Songline as well. I for one can not imagine the tears being able to stop if I had come into contact with these two angels just a mere 30 minutes before their deaths,how horrible to be that close to that evil woman and not even be able to see the evil within her.That would shake me to my core. I hope she is okay.

I am happy to report that I had a full night sleep last night. (14th day)
At first I awakened 3 times a night, then 2, 1. But last night I really slept.
Maybe an Obama win helped some.
Thanks for the love :blowkiss:

 

[i.b.nora]

I just googled YMCAs in NYC. The closest one I could find to the Krim's apt is located at 5 W 63rd. If that is where Nessie took her swim lesson, it would be approx 12 blocks SOUTH from the Krims apt.

PS 87 school is located at 160 W 78th...approx 3 blocks NORTH of the Krim's apt.

IMO the nanny and Leo went to pick up Lulu at school while Ms. Krim was taking Nessie to swim.

I agree with you and I think that particular 'Y' also has dance classes for kids.

 

[songline]

http://lululeomemorial.tumblr.com/

link

closed the link. family requested no media, no reporters, and no leaks.