17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #7

[flourish]

Thanks for the 911 run-down, Steely Dan. I just love number 13...his roommate letting people in the house that GZ "didn't like." That one is particularly rich, imo. Sure glad he doesn't live in my neighborhood! I like to have the freedom to hang out with my garage door open if I want.
imo

 

[LambChop]

If emotions were tamed with this entire thing, I would agree. However, I honestly don't think it would do any good at this point in time. I can already see the family claiming further attempts to demonize their son by releasing graphic imagery, claims from people that he faked the injuries and "here's how I know", and just general dissension that's not any better than what's going on right now.

I think if he had some severe injuries as he claims because he thought TM was going to kill him the fact that LE refused to let him go to the hospital should be a real concern. It's not like they couldn't have sent an officer with him or had a homocide detective waiting to talk to him in the ER. This is why it makes no sense. Is GZ claiming he wanted to go to the hospital and LE refused? I can't imagine SPD claiming they refused to let him be seen in the emergency room? jmo

 

[m00c0w]

Bottom line; If the stand your ground law can't only be used as a defense in court then the law has to change. JMO

I really don't have any evidence to refute the opinions you've displayed. Thank you for admitting the error about the 911 tapes, though. That's been widely mischaracterized in the media for some reason.

I want to address this last issue with you. It is my belief that if someone exercised a proper use of force in a clear self-defense scenario, they have every right to not be arrested. Let me give you this scenario (I am in no way comparing this to the case this thread is about, this is just an attempt to explain why the law is the way it is) -

Say John is a student at a local college, and has just stopped at a store to pick up some stuff for the night. Upon returning to his car, two males approach him at knifepoint and demand he hand over his keys. John pulls a gun of his own and shoots one individual in the head, killing him, and clips the second male. John has sustained injuries of his own during the conflict. Police are called to the scene. Given that John just fought for his life, and that he is clearly a victim in this scenario, do you think it would be morally or ethically right to mandate he gets arrested simply because he used deadly force? This man, a victim, should not have to lose time off from school and work because of a situation he was thrown into and in which he was forced to defend himself. That is the standpoint from which this law was written. It's not an attempt to protect anyone but a victim of a violent crime that was forced to ultimately defend themselves. The law makes clear exceptions for individuals that are suspected of actually using such force unlawfully; whether the police or prosecutor decides there's enough probable cause is an entirely different story.

JMO

Btw - that's a legitimate story that happened here in Atlanta, FWIW.

 

[LambChop]

Thanks for the 911 run-down, Steely Dan. I just love number 13...his roommate letting people in the house that GZ "didn't like." That one is particularly rich, imo. Sure glad he doesn't live in my neighborhood! I like to have the freedom to hang out with my garage door open if I want.
imo

And God forbid you should cook some stinky fish and not be able to open your window for fear LE was going to show up. jmo

 

[vlpate]

It was actually 46 in 7 1/2 years, but you are much closer to right than I am about that. Thanks for the correction. Here's a listing of those calls;

TEL = non-911 police number (answered by 911 dispatcher)

BM = black male

LSW = last seen wearing

46. Feb. 26, 2012 – 7:20 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Repeats prior report


45. Feb. 26, 2012 (night of Martin shooting) – 7:11 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male “late teens lsw dark gray hoodie jeans or sweatpants walking around area” … “subj now running towards back entrance of complex”

Hold on, these are the calls from Zimmerman? I could never get the pdf from the SPD site to open with the 46 calls. I got my time line of 911 calls from media articles, one being from and interview with the family lawyer. (I linked way upthread, but I still have it somewhere)

Are there two calls here from Zimmerman and is this an official page? Is there a way to view them in html???? Is your link from the SPD site??

I heard something about the calls not matching with the girlfriend's timeline. Maybe this is why. hmmmmm!!

 

[Sensei]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...n-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3IVXdU_LQ2

Here's the problem with media who pay for their exclusives and don't name sources:

"The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News."

First of all, I thought a narcotics detective questioned Zimmerman the night of the shooting. Which "lead homicide investigator" are they talking about. Wouldn't this imply a more thorough investigation? Multiple sources? Really? You know they can just say that and not have to back it up, right?

Ridiculous!!!

It does tend to dovetail with the witness who claims that a detective told her that they didn't think it was self defense though.

"That investigator said flat out that we don't think it was self-defense," Brown said, recalling the day the police came to interview Austin. "Several times he said, 'I have kids, and I'm going to tell you something that I don't tell many people.' He looked at me and said, 'You have to read between the lines. There's some stereotyping going on.'"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/17/trayvon-martin-killing-yo_n_1355795.html

 

[Dr.Fessel]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...n-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3IVXdU_LQ2

Here's the problem with media who pay for their exclusives and don't name sources:

"The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News."

First of all, I thought a narcotics detective questioned Zimmerman the night of the shooting. Which "lead homicide investigator" are they talking about. Wouldn't this imply a more thorough investigation? Multiple sources? Really? You know they can just say that and not have to back it up, right?

Ridiculous!!!

I think it has been stated all along the narcotics officer was the first one to question Zimmerman in the homicide investigation.

 

[lillygator]

This is the problem I have too. First we heard TM was staying at his 'dad's place'. Then it was 'a relatives' home. Then it's the dad's 'girlfriends house', and now it's the dad's fiance's house. A 'ten minute walk' to a convenience store for snacks *during* the basketball game. Suspended for being tardy. Why can't we just hear what's true rather than a colored version of events that keeps changing? And why did dad call to see if TM had been arrested?

what is that nugget???

Really not helping:

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Trayvo...ed-North-Miami-Beach-Walgreens-144407215.html

Trayvon Martin Protesters Ransacked North Miami Beach Walgreen's

Dozens of protesters tore through drug store, destroyed merchandise: Police

not at all and I am afraid it is going to get much worse.

I must admit, I'm very bothered by the image the media has used for GZ. When I saw the more recent picture of him in a shirt and tie, smiling and looking slimmer, I was stunned. IMO, they are using that old mug shot (where he looks like a mean, angry ) to paint a false picture. JMO, MOO, OMO, etc.

I agree.

Hold on, these are the calls from Zimmerman? I could never get the pdf from the SPD site to open with the 46 calls. I got my time line of 911 calls from media articles, one being from and interview with the family lawyer. (I linked way upthread, but I still have it somewhere)

Are there two calls here from Zimmerman and is this an official page? Is there a way to view them in html???? Is your link from the SPD site??

I heard something about the calls not matching with the girlfriend's timeline. Maybe this is why. hmmmmm!!

wow...

 

[m00c0w]

Hold on, these are the calls from Zimmerman? I could never get the pdf from the SPD site to open with the 46 calls. I got my time line of 911 calls from media articles, one being from and interview with the family lawyer. (I linked way upthread, but I still have it somewhere)

Are there two calls here from Zimmerman and is this an official page? Is there a way to view them in html???? Is your link from the SPD site??

I heard something about the calls not matching with the girlfriend's timeline. Maybe this is why. hmmmmm!!

Yes, there are two calls. I noticed it, as well, but they appear to be duplicates for some reason. The timestamps are off by 10-20 minutes, though.

 

[Inabsentia]

U

Thanks for organizing this information. IIRC, didn't someone (LE or HOA) say that GZ was responsible for catching/stopping one or two burglaries? Are any of those noted in the phone records? I'm just trying to figure out if it's fact or rumor that he prevented some crimes.

I believe he persued a pair of shoplifters who had stolen electronics. The police arrested them,it should be in my last link. I don't know if they were convicted. That is the only real crime prevention I have seen documented. Moo

 

[katydid23]

Trayvon's parents have maintained that his suspension had NOTHING to do with violence...JMO

I just heard on KFI radio, while in my car, that TM had been suspended three times, not once. And one time it was because he had a screwdriver and women's jewelry, making school officials think he had been stealing. ??

And the other time it was for being in a restricted area, which again made them think he was casing the area or being shady in some way. I used to work in a school and the restricted areas were often where employees kept belongings while they worked.

I am not saying that this means TM should have been shot. But it does make me wonder if he might have been looking into windows or cars, as GZ said he was. Just because TM did go to the store for skittles that does not mean he wasn't possibly looking for open windows or unlocked cars as well. I think his family has been trying to paint him as an angel and I am not sure if it is entirely accurate.

Sometimes the truth is somewhere in the middle, imo.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I just heard on KFI radio, while in my car, that TM had been suspended three times, not once. And one time it was because he had a screwdriver and women's jewelry, making school officials think he had been stealing. ??

And the other time it was for being in a restricted area, which again made them think he was casing the area or being shady in some way. I used to work in a school and the restricted areas were often where employees kept belongings while they worked.

I am not saying that this means TM should have been shot. But it does make me wonder if he might have been looking into windows or cars, as GZ said he was. Just because TM did go to the store for skittles that does not mean he wasn't possibly looking for open windows or unlocked cars as well. I think his family has been trying to paint him as an angel and I am not sure if it is entirely accurate.

Sometimes the truth is somewhere in the middle, imo.

BBM

I don't remember Zimmerman saying he was looking in windows or cars. I don't think that is true.

 

[tlcya]

Cheryl Brown's son A (13) was less than 20 yards away when TM was shot on the night of February 26. A did not see much but heard plenty. Enough to cause him stress and worry, wondering what if it had been him out there that night instead of TM.

"That investigator said flat out that we don't think it was self-defense," Brown said, recalling the day the police came to interview Austin. "Several times he said, 'I have kids, and I'm going to tell you something that I don't tell many people.' He looked at me and said, 'You have to read between the lines. There's some stereotyping going on.'"

She continued: "He stood here in my family room telling me that this guy [Zimmerman] is not right and it wasn't self-defense and that they have to prove that it wasn't. He was adamant about that. I don't know if that was to make me less uncomfortable or to make us feel that he was on our side."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/17/trayvon-martin-killing-yo_n_1355795.html

 

[m00c0w]

Rep. Frederica Wilson, D-Florida, called Trayvon Martin a "victim of a botched police investigation full of incompetence or intelligent mismanagement." She added, "Trayvon was hunted, chased, tackled and shot. Ill-conceived laws and lax gun laws all contribute to this tragedy. Mr. Zimmerman should be arrested immediately for his own safety."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting/?hpt=hp_t1

Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?

 

[m00c0w]

The revelation about the suspension in October, in a school report obtained by the Herald, was condemned today by Trayvon's family as part of a campaign to smear their dead son.
The boy's mother said: 'They killed my son and now they're trying to kill his reputation.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html

Who is "they"?

 

[vlpate]

So out of the 46 calls in seven and a half years 15 have been about suspicious activity and six specifically black males. One call was for an 8 year old black child. Six mention no race and one mentions an hispanic man.

The rash of burglaries, IIRC, started in August, 2011, there were black males described by witnesses.

I have never seen any reports of there being crime tape put up and an investigation of the scene the following day. If they did that then I apologize. I just haven't heard of it.

I didn't see where you said the next day. I know this was done when it happened, there are pictures of the scene (video maybe), I remember seeing it and reading that CSI was called in.

Do you think that there was enough to detain him or not?

I don't know, I am not privy to the information.

From what I've heard Zimmerman's testimony hasn't been fully released, nor has he made public statements. What we hear Zimmerman said is coming out of the mouths of the SPD.

None of his testimony has been released, as far as I know. Maybe Zimmerman doesn't feel he needs 15 minutes of fame or to defend himself to the public. Now, obviously, he's scared senseless.

I guess this might be where you and I disagree. I think there was more than enough probable cause.

lol, didn't you just ask me this?

Once again, if they did put up crime scene tape and check it after the rain in the sunlight of the next day then I'm wrong. It doesn't look that way though. It appears that this wasn't a lengthy investigation. It appears it took one night.

I just read he was interviewed three times and it was video taped. It was from this KC site.
http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/21/3505774/commission-votes-no-confidence.html
Also that there was a struggle over Zimmerman's gun: http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...n-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3Ikf2HOVEL
The sentence just hanging out there at the end is not sourced and seems weird....whooooooo knows.

I find it difficult to believe that the FBI stepped in and found a thorough investigation going on and being competently handled and continued to stay on it for long.

You can bet your bippy they are doing a fine toothed comb investigation right now. The prosecutor said yesterday it may be another couple of weeks.

Bottom line; If the stand your ground law can't only be used as a defense in court then the law has to change. JMO

Another poster gives a good scenario to this

 

[rotterdam]

Most notably we have no information showing that he DID have blood on him, it was NOT noted in the police report and we don't know if they kept his clothes, but no where did anyone document blood on his clothing,his hands, or anywhere else, and I doubt that there was a close struggle and shot and no blood at all, there was however a notation of blood on his nose and the back of his head that was treated in the backof the squad car but not transported to a health facility.

The police report was only partial. GZ had on a red jacket, so Tray's blood might have been difficult to spot and identified as blood by a visual observation.

 

[vlpate]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting/?hpt=hp_t1

Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?

Of course, I've been saying this all day. It is beyond reprehensible to allow this before the investigation has been completed.

Chased and tackled. :banghead:

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I agree there is nothing in the law that says you must\

BUT IN THIS CASE in the case that we are discussing here, the Trayvon Martin shooting....If anyone is going to believe that George Zimmerman was attacked there MUST be injuries, otherwise he is trying to convince the police and everyone else that he was afraid for his life from an unarmed teenager who never inflicted an injury of any kind on him...and that is simply ludicrous.

Again, he was injured. His injuries are described in the initial police report.

The link is in this thread.

 

[m00c0w]

Of course, I've been saying this all day. It is beyond reprehensible to allow this before the investigation has been completed.

Chased and tackled. :banghead:

And that's a state legislator, nonetheless.