17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #13

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  • #621
Then he should have familiarized himself with them before jumping to conclusions that TM was up to no good just because he didn't recognize him. MOO


That is one valid point.
But I think this is a valid point too:
a watchman knows how to size people up, and IMH based on screwdriver and ladies jewelry in TMs locker GZ did size him up right.
BUT, he was also overzealous, and should have waited for the police, because things snowballed out of control.
NO I DO NOT THINK that GZ came out of his house with a gun looking for a black person someone to shoot.
 
  • #622
Thanks. Observe it is not dated. Is this new, if you know?

I don't know, had hubby look at page source he said it's not there (date it added) idk
 
  • #623
GZ's friend, FT, said there was no gash, it was a contusion (bruise). An EMT would not let him walk away with an open wound, no way. jmo

LambChop,
I did not make this photo, you are welcome to call it bruise, but it is on the photo. SOME ALTERCATION IS OBVIOUS.
ALL I keep on saying is that something did happen during 2 minutes that we have no concrete information about that something which set off this snowball that went out of control,
NO we do not know. WE do know that GZ is overzealous. And we d know that TM is no saint.
That is all we know.
 
  • #624
What everyone forgets is how the law itself works in Florida. It doesn't matter if Z or T or anyone else had any sort of motive, etc. You can actually pick a fight with someone and, if the person you pick a fight with becomes defensive, you can claim self defense yourself. Actually so could the other person. All you have to really say is that, at the moment, you felt in fear for your life. You do not have to prove the other person had a weapon or anything else.

We had a similar but unrelated case here where driver A cut off driver B on the highway, almost causing B to crash. B was ticked off, and pursued A into a parking lot. A got a gun and shot and killed driver B, who he had just cut off. He was not charged with anything because, at that moment, B was being aggressive and A felt in fear of his life. Not saying thats right or wrong - just that is how the law works.

You could apply the same thing in the Z and T case. Z may have followed T around and may have even harassed him. it really doesn't matter. At some point T perhaps came up to Z and confronted him. The result is one person died and the other claims self defense. Under the current law, thats how it is.

Now, I am not saying the law is right (or not), and I am not a pro gun person either. I think all guns should be banned. But, thats now how the law and the Constitution is either. I also do not think it is fair to change the law in the middle of a case, and apply the new law to the past crime (you are changing the law to make something that was not a crime into one). If there is a problem with a law, change it and apply it from that date forward. Since murder doesn't have a statute of limitations, it would be unfair to change the current law to make Z's actions a crime, because in theory it would open up all of the prior stand your ground or otherwise exonorated cases again.

Under that same law, you cannot be the aggressor and then use this law. Your hands must be clean and not part of any criminal activity, such as 'stalking' and then turning around, confronting, start a fistfight, shoot to kill and then use that as standing your ground...

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/2012/03/trayvon-martins-death-is-not-a-stand-your-ground-case/
 
  • #625
  • #626
“I have never seen a crime scene cleaned up so fast,” Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, told The Miami Herald. He came home that night just before 11 p.m. and saw no trace of a crime. It was not until he called police the next morning that a major crimes detective went to the townhouse where his girlfriend lives to break the news.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/2725442_p4/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html#storylink=cpy

LE didn't even canvass the complex.
 
  • #627
What everyone forgets is how the law itself works in Florida. It doesn't matter if Z or T or anyone else had any sort of motive, etc. You can actually pick a fight with someone and, if the person you pick a fight with becomes defensive, you can claim self defense yourself. Actually so could the other person. All you have to really say is that, at the moment, you felt in fear for your life. You do not have to prove the other person had a weapon or anything else.

We had a similar but unrelated case here where driver A cut off driver B on the highway, almost causing B to crash. B was ticked off, and pursued A into a parking lot. A got a gun and shot and killed driver B, who he had just cut off. He was not charged with anything because, at that moment, B was being aggressive and A felt in fear of his life. Not saying thats right or wrong - just that is how the law works.

You could apply the same thing in the Z and T case. Z may have followed T around and may have even harassed him. it really doesn't matter. At some point T perhaps came up to Z and confronted him. The result is one person died and the other claims self defense. Under the current law, thats how it is.

Now, I am not saying the law is right (or not), and I am not a pro gun person either. I think all guns should be banned. But, thats now how the law and the Constitution is either. I also do not think it is fair to change the law in the middle of a case, and apply the new law to the past crime (you are changing the law to make something that was not a crime into one). If there is a problem with a law, change it and apply it from that date forward. Since murder doesn't have a statute of limitations, it would be unfair to change the current law to make Z's actions a crime, because in theory it would open up all of the prior stand your ground or otherwise exonorated cases again.
Sorry but it does not sound like law or justice to me.
I think it sounds like the wild wild west.

I am against the current law.
Because if one man is standing and one is dead you must investigate.

this law is a mad mans heaven.
Dont be shocked if people just shoot someone because they wanted to get ahead in line to pay for groceries, and someone just did not agree.
 
  • #628
I do not know that, I only know this much...It must have been beyond scary to have just shot a man. he knew he did not think it could have been done any other way, but was still scared.
I imagine I would have been in Panic even if I was 150% in the right.

I agree about him being scared after taking a life but what I've bolded above is very concerning if he thought this way. Even if there was a physical altercation~what kind of mindset he must have had; thinking a gun is the only way to solve a problem. :waitasec: That is so far from my way of thinking that I honestly can't understand it even a little. Starting to feel that Mr. Zimmerman, IF he thought this way, was living a very shallow unhappy life. Again MOO
 
  • #629
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...gment/2012/03/31/gIQAc4HhnS_blog.html?hpid=z6

More on NBC altering Zimmermann's words on 9-11 call to make him appear racist.

Why is a major media organization inventing a motive? What is their motive? Do we like to be lied to ...if it supports our own "conclusions" and therefore we will not criticize media who mislead others into believing what we believe.

Do we now condone inventing and disseminating evidence to GET WHAT WE WANT?

The facts and evidence may be there to support a trial for GZ. But can GZ get a fair trial when the media is putting out falsities? Aren't there people who will believe what the MSM tells them and bring THAT into the jury room? Do you care whether you have a media you can trust?

You may let the media get away with this..even secretly LIKE it...but someday, someone YOU love may be dependent on the truth. Be careful what you condone in orderto get what you want.
 
  • #630
“I have never seen a crime scene cleaned up so fast,” Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, told The Miami Herald. He came home that night just before 11 p.m. and saw no trace of a crime. It was not until he called police the next morning that a major crimes detective went to the townhouse where his girlfriend lives to break the news.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/2725442_p4/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html#storylink=cpy

hmm... not so sure he would go that way to get home. He was out with his GF for dinner.
I see exaggerations from both sides.
The incident happened between the building nobody can drive there, and you drive home and park by your house.
 
  • #631
I keep thinking about the years Florida schools have taught Stranger Danger. Those 70 yards to safety are making me crazy.
 
  • #632
So. On the voice patterning.

How likely is it they will be able to match that horrible moaning scream to anyone? What they will have are speaking voices vs. that awful bellowing.

If they were matching speaking voice to speaking voice, it seems the likelihood of getting a clear match would be high.

Matching speaking voice to that sound on the tape seems like it might not be possible.

It sounds very difficult to me too but apparently the analyst thinks it can be done.


Another benefit of modern biometric analysis, Owen said, is it doesn't require an "in context" comparison. In other words, Owen didn't need a sample of Zimmerman screaming in order to compare his voice to the call.

It would be lovely to see a scientific reference to get an idea of the accuracy that can be expected.

I would expect for screaming and talking to have some similarity because it's the same anatomy producing the sounds, but I think he's going to have to produce strong back-up to convince some jurors, if ever called to testify about Trayvon.
 
  • #633
BBM
Really why would he have a receipt? I don't usually get receipts at 7/11 if I pay in cash

Even with card purchases I tell them and fast food places I don't want a receipt. That way I don't have to clean up the gadzillion receipts that would end up on the floor of my car.
 
  • #634
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...gment/2012/03/31/gIQAc4HhnS_blog.html?hpid=z6

More on NBC altering Zimmermann's words on 9-11 call to make him appear racist.

Why is a major media organization inventing a motive? What is their motive? Do we like to be lied to ...if it supports our own "conclusions" and therefore we will not criticize media who mislead others into believing what we believe.

Do we now condone inventing and disseminating evidence to GET WHAT WE WANT?

The facts and evidence may be there to support a trial for GZ. But can GZ get a fair trial when the media is putting out falsities? Aren't there people who will believe what the MSM tells them and bring THAT into the jury room? Do you care whether you have a media you can trust?

You may let the media get away with this..even secretly LIKE it...but someday, someone YOU love may be dependent on the truth. Be careful what you condone in orderto get what you want.

That's what I don't like about this case at all. Zimmerman has the same rights as everybody else. But it seems there are some that want to "get him" at all costs. I don't see how Zimmerman could get a fair trial now.
 
  • #635
  • #636
That is one valid point.
But I think this is a valid point too:
a watchman knows how to size people up, and IMH based on screwdriver and ladies jewelry in TMs locker GZ did size him up right.
BUT, he was also overzealous, and should have waited for the police, because things snowballed out of control.
NO I DO NOT THINK that GZ came out of his house with a gun looking for a black person someone to shoot.

But did he??? Maybe not to shoot but certainly catch.

If you look at the address given to dispatch of where GZ lives, TM would have been walking along Oregon Avenue and there is a cut through area not gated between the homes along Oregon Ave. GA's house is right there in that area. If TM decided to take a short cut GZ would have been able to see him from his home. Given previous 911 calls posted here recently he and his wife have reported suspicious people before cutting across this area. If TM decided to take the short cut through the yard instead of walking all the way down through the gate TM could have seen him prior to leaving his home and it could have been the reason he started following TM in the first place. It's a long walk so cutting through the yards seems like something a teen would do without thinking much about it or how someone might preceive it.

It really does not make sense that GZ could not see who this was but was suspicious suddenly walking along near the clubhouse. GZ was supposedly just going to the store headed towards the gate and TM was headed in the opposite direction toward the clubhouse. How would that be suspicious to him. I think it's possible GZ thought TM was suspicious because he used a short cut through in the homes instead of going through the front gate where the camera was. That would mean he knew when he left his house that he intended to follow him. jmo
 
  • #637
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...gment/2012/03/31/gIQAc4HhnS_blog.html?hpid=z6

More on NBC altering Zimmermann's words on 9-11 call to make him appear racist.

Why is a major media organization inventing a motive? What is their motive? Do we like to be lied to ...if it supports our own "conclusions" and therefore we will not criticize media who mislead others into believing what we believe.

Do we now condone inventing and disseminating evidence to GET WHAT WE WANT?

The facts and evidence may be there to support a trial for GZ. But can GZ get a fair trial when the media is putting out falsities? Aren't there people who will believe what the MSM tells them and bring THAT into the jury room? Do you care whether you have a media you can trust?

You may let the media get away with this..even secretly LIKE it...but someday, someone YOU love may be dependent on the truth. Be careful what you condone in orderto get what you want.

I find it appalling what media does nowadays in general but distorting what is actual evidence in a volatile case is flat out wrong. I can't understand ANYONE secretly liking this though as I'm of the opinion that most post I've seen suggest most are really looking for the truth. MOO
 
  • #638
That's what I don't like about this case at all. Zimmerman has the same rights as everybody else. But it seems there are some that want to "get him" at all costs. I don't see how Zimmerman could get a fair trial now.

I don't think anyone is out to get GZ. I think most of us here are questioning his motives to follow someone when he knew better. And obviously the term "out to get him" is what GZ did to TM by his very actions. Exploring the possibilities of what happened is the price GZ will have to pay for his for shooting someone. The end result is that a young man is dead. To not question how that happened is to turn a blind eye. There is still an ongoing investigation and TM's family have the right to know what happened here and not just take GZ's word for it. If GZ was telling the truth the facts will back up his story. As long as LE is left alone to do their job they will get to the truth. GZ has a history of escaping "responsibilities for his actions" it would be irresponsible on the part of citizens to just let this one side under the carpet knowing he has gotten away with misbehavior in the past. We all have the right to question why facts don't add up. jmo
 
  • #639
What everyone forgets is how the law itself works in Florida. It doesn't matter if Z or T or anyone else had any sort of motive, etc. You can actually pick a fight with someone and, if the person you pick a fight with becomes defensive, you can claim self defense yourself. Actually so could the other person. All you have to really say is that, at the moment, you felt in fear for your life. You do not have to prove the other person had a weapon or anything else.

We had a similar but unrelated case here where driver A cut off driver B on the highway, almost causing B to crash. B was ticked off, and pursued A into a parking lot. A got a gun and shot and killed driver B, who he had just cut off. He was not charged with anything because, at that moment, B was being aggressive and A felt in fear of his life. Not saying thats right or wrong - just that is how the law works.

You could apply the same thing in the Z and T case. Z may have followed T around and may have even harassed him. it really doesn't matter. At some point T perhaps came up to Z and confronted him. The result is one person died and the other claims self defense. Under the current law, thats how it is.

Now, I am not saying the law is right (or not), and I am not a pro gun person either. I think all guns should be banned. But, thats now how the law and the Constitution is either. I also do not think it is fair to change the law in the middle of a case, and apply the new law to the past crime (you are changing the law to make something that was not a crime into one). If there is a problem with a law, change it and apply it from that date forward. Since murder doesn't have a statute of limitations, it would be unfair to change the current law to make Z's actions a crime, because in theory it would open up all of the prior stand your ground or otherwise exonorated cases again.

This law is NOT designed to allow for the part bolded. This law protects you if you are attacked and have to defend yourself. If you were walking down the street and a rapist put a knife to your throat, you could shoot him and that would be justifiable as should be. No woman should have to be raped and killed because she can't defend herself. No store owner should be shot and killed during a robbery because they couldn't defend themselves against an armed robber. But, no one should be allowed to shoot someone they started a fight with either. That's when the shooter ends up with charges pressed and it's up to a jury to decide if the shooting was justifiable. Folks are confusing the SYG defense with manslaughter, IMO.
 
  • #640
Even with card purchases I tell them and fast food places I don't want a receipt. That way I don't have to clean up the gadzillion receipts that would end up on the floor of my car.

And, if the purchases were put in a paper bag with the receipt...it was raining, who wants to carry a paper bag in the rain. He probably threw the bag way with the receipt inside. He's not going to carry a bag all that way to have it fall apart.. It makes sense he put the candy and ice tea in his pocket. jmo
 
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