18 y/o Black male shot dead by Police in St Louis suburb of Berkeley MO

[SCHMAE]

Much better video from a different camera:

It is much better and ty for sharing. I will say this, it's a good thing I don't have to view this kind of material for anyone because even in the 'smoothed' views, I can hardly make out anything.

 

[Sonya610]

Maybe I didn't see this, or it got lost in all the conversation, but at the end, was that the cop that ran off after the shooting? If it was, do cops just run off like that, or wouldn't they stay around the squad car? It seems you would be more of a target running like that?

You were the first one to suggest ambush so I assumed you DID notice that!

I think the cop started flying back to create distance and avoid return fire, but then in the process he got too far away from his car to use it for cover so he KEPT going back further until he could assess the situation (and figure out if someone else was going to finish the job).

I really wish the police would release the info as to weather AM was the shoplifter. If he WAS I would expect that the employee who called it in would tell the 911 operator that the guys were STILL THERE OUT FRONT. Maybe that is why the cop did not pull the cruiser up to the front door but stopped it a ways away when he saw those two approaching.

I find the fact that the two of them headed STRAIGHT over to the police car to be very odd especially since AM was packing an illegal firearm.

 

[leah]

You were the first one to suggest ambush so I assumed you DID notice that!

I think the cop started flying back to create distance and avoid return fire, but then in the process he got too far away from his car to use it for cover so he KEPT going back further until he could assess the situation (and figure out if someone else was going to finish the job).

I really wish the police would release the info as to weather AM was the shoplifter. If he WAS I would expect that the employee who called it in would tell the 911 operator that the guys were STILL THERE OUT FRONT. Maybe that is why the cop did not pull the cruiser up to the front door but stopped it a ways away when he saw those two approaching.

LOL I saw someone run off, I figured it was the officer, but I didn't know 100%. And I did think it was an ambush, but since the gun was on safety, I figured that couldn't be then. But someone brought up the idea that AM may have been real high and didn't realize that about the gun. Now I don't know what to think, except for the fact the actions of the boys, and girls with stroller seemed strange, almost walking like zombies. Sure wish we had more info on this.

 

[Sonya610]

LOL I saw someone run off, I figured it was the officer, but I didn't know 100%. And I did think it was an ambush, but since the gun was on safety, I figured that couldn't be then.

I don't think the safety really means much one way or the other. The kid had crap ammo in it and someone mentioned only a few bullets. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he forgot the safety or more likely didn't realize it was on, he also could have flipped it on accidentally while handling the gun.

 

[LonghornSpeakEasy]

You were the first one to suggest ambush so I assumed you DID notice that!

I think the cop started flying back to create distance and avoid return fire, but then in the process he got too far away from his car to use it for cover so he KEPT going back further until he could assess the situation (and figure out if someone else was going to finish the job).

I really wish the police would release the info as to weather AM was the shoplifter. If he WAS I would expect that the employee who called it in would tell the 911 operator that the guys were STILL THERE OUT FRONT. Maybe that is why the cop did not pull the cruiser up to the front door but stopped it a ways away when he saw those two approaching.

I find the fact that the two of them headed STRAIGHT over to the police car to be very odd especially since AM was packing an illegal firearm.

I think the officer may have gone so far back because he wasn't sure where the two females with the stroller were and wanted to be behind them, too. Also, AM initially did not approach the car although the other person did. I thought I saw AM walked away towards the side of the building in the direction the car was pointing and stop. It appears to me that the officer shined his flashlight towards him and probably told him him to come over to the car.

 

[Confusion]

What I don't like is this: some posters use the tactic in this discussion of placing LE and criminals on the same playing field. Like they are equal. This is not true. This sweeping attempt at generalizations making both subsets equal really is a disgrace & IMO, logically flawed. Next we will be hearing about how we should as taxpayers fund the families of criminals who die committing crimes, right? Do you see where these broad generalizations lead to?

LE has a specified role. They are supposed to carry guns. They are required to put their life on the line for us citizens everyday.

Criminals do not have the same role within our society.

It is important to keep the differences separate. Propaganda & hype attempt to blur the differences, iykwim?

All moo

If I'm (one of the) some posters you mentioned, I think you totally misunderstood what I said, or we really look at the world differently. I'm not saying that LE and criminals should be on a level playing field, but I believe it's in the Constitution that all people must obey the same laws, and nobody (LE, judges, politicians, clergymen, etc.) is supposed to be exempt. I know my uncle gave up his job in LE when he saw all the favoritism going on. He got into trouble one day for issuing a parking ticket to the mayor's car, another time for stopping a judge for speeding, and several other stories I've forgotten because it was a long time ago. He told them that he wasn't a judge, and it wasn't his job to decide who had a good reason for breaking a law; it was his job to enforce the laws, and let the courts figure out the rest of it.

I don't think LEOs should have to wait for someone to attack or show a weapon to pull out a gun if it feels necessary for control, but I also don't believe they have the right to shoot someone who isn't a threat (but is maybe very disrespectful or something.) What I don't like is when LEOs will lie on a police report, or even in court, to avoid having to say they've seen another one abusing a suspect, using racial slurs while talking to suspects (or even witnesses), planting evidence (like a throw-away gun) to cover up a mistake or worse, driving under the influence, abusing a domestic partner or children, and on and on. MOST of LE would probably be honest if directly asked, but I don't think a lot of them would want to be the first one to point a finger at a well respected co-worker.

Are we assuming the two boys shoplifted at that store, because why would you stand in front of a store you just stole from? Surely the police have the name and have spoken to the boy that ran back into the store after the shooting. A person would have to be high as a kite to point a gun at a cop, unless he was suicidal, and there sure doesn't seem to be any indication of that right now at least. I have watched different angles of the videos several times, and the actions of the boys and girls with the stroller, all really weird to me. Maybe I didn't see this, or it got lost in all the conversation, but at the end, was that the cop that ran off after the shooting? If it was, do cops just run off like that, or wouldn't they stay around the squad car? It seems you would be more of a target running like that?

When he took off like that, I thought maybe he had lost sight of where the second guy went, and was looking for him on the street rather than inside the building. I thought in one of the earliest articles I read that he said the second guy ran off, and he tried chasing after him but lost him. I could be remembering wrong though, I've read a lot since then.

All MOO

 

[al66pine]

Just an observation: AM has a backpack on the front & back??

2 backpacks?
Could say 2 packs, one in front and one in back.

Maybe just terminology, but I'd say he has small-ish backpack on his back and
a messenger-style bag on front, w single, long, cross-body strap riding on his right shoulder.
The messenger bag-body is positioned kinda-sorta under his left arm, about waist high (and further forward than under armpit).

Or maybe my brain is misinterpreting what my eyes are seeing. JM2cts.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

If I'm (one of the) some posters you mentioned, I think you totally misunderstood what I said, or we really look at the world differently. I'm not saying that LE and criminals should be on a level playing field, but I believe it's in the Constitution that all people must obey the same laws, and nobody (LE, judges, politicians, clergymen, etc.) is supposed to be exempt. I know my uncle gave up his job in LE when he saw all the favoritism going on. He got into trouble one day for issuing a parking ticket to the mayor's car, another time for stopping a judge for speeding, and several other stories I've forgotten because it was a long time ago. He told them that he wasn't a judge, and it wasn't his job to decide who had a good reason for breaking a law; it was his job to enforce the laws, and let the courts figure out the rest of it.

I don't think LEOs should have to wait for someone to attack or show a weapon to pull out a gun if it feels necessary for control, but I also don't believe they have the right to shoot someone who isn't a threat (but is maybe very disrespectful or something.) What I don't like is when LEOs will lie on a police report, or even in court, to avoid having to say they've seen another one abusing a suspect, using racial slurs while talking to suspects (or even witnesses), planting evidence (like a throw-away gun) to cover up a mistake or worse, driving under the influence, abusing a domestic partner or children, and on and on. MOST of LE would probably be honest if directly asked, but I don't think a lot of them would want to be the first one to point a finger at a well respected co-worker.




When he took off like that, I thought maybe he had lost sight of where the second guy went, and was looking for him on the street rather than inside the building. I thought in one of the earliest articles I read that he said the second guy ran off, and he tried chasing after him but lost him. I could be remembering wrong though, I've read a lot since then.

All MOO

Correct that we can see the world from very different perspectives & that's cool.

Imagine what happens if we as a society don't support LE .... The situation gets worse, right? Worse candidates applying, less qualified applicants, good LE taking early retirements. And I feel that the number of career criminals within our society truly & grossly outweighs the number of "dirty" LE.
If you don't support or respect LE then what does your world look like when someone is victimizing you ("you" in the general sense). Who you gonna' call? Ghostbusters?

When you're a criminal, you lose some of your rights like (in some cases the right to vote) & the right to bear arms. So your statement that all civilians have the same rights is flawed because sometimes based on actions, they are lost.

It has been stated in links here that AM had committed a recent serious crime in May and was awaiting sentencing.

Scary to think who walks amongst us. Scary to think who stands next to us at a convenience store with a loaded gun in their knapsack.

Scary to think that posts continue to talk about "dirty" LE which has nothing to do with this case.

 

[stmarysmead]

The cop has a clean record; the deceased is already a career criminal at a young age. Yet some immediately assume the wrongdoing is on the part of the cop and the innocence has to on the part of the deceased. How can that be explained? Interesting....

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

2 backpacks?
Could say 2 packs, one in front and one in back.

Maybe just terminology, but I'd say he has small-ish backpack on his back and
a messenger-style bag on front, w single, long, cross-body strap riding on his right shoulder.
The messenger bag-body is positioned kinda-sorta under his left arm, about waist high (and further forward than under armpit).

Or maybe my brain is misinterpreting what my eyes are seeing. JM2cts.

I could use sacks, backpacks, knapsacks interchangeably for what I saw in the videos.

I don't think it really makes a difference which term one prefers.

Moo

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

the cop has a clean record; the deceased is already a career criminal at a young age. Yet some immediately assume the wrongdoing is on the part of the cop and the innocence has to on the part of the deceased. How can that be explained? Interesting....

ita!!!

 

[MyBelle]

Yes there have been cases. A few years ago in Atlanta they got a tip (from an informant) and raided a house for dealing drugs, the owner, a 90 year old lady living alone, shot at them and was killed. Obviously it was the WRONG house.

I think they changed their policy regarding "no knock" warrants after that incident. As a dog owner those no knock warrants always scared the heck out of me, heck even an alarm system is scary because it "invites" the police into your house. I have no problem with the police but I don't want them around my dogs.



IMO if they make a mistake on a house things can go VERY bad. I live alone, if someone started to actually break/enter they would be shot without being identified if possible (bullets go through walls and most doors just fine, it is strategically safer to shoot a home intruder before they see you). Course I would likely get shot to death in return if the invaders were police but the point is no knock warrants are TOO DANGEROUS if they are not 100% sure they have the right house.

Unless I missed something, in the incident with the old lady that you describe, she shot at cops and was killed. I fail to see how that is any different than what happened in this case with Martin. If you aim a gun at a police officer, the chances are that the officer will shoot you.

 

[Sonya610]

Unless I missed something, in the incident with the old lady that you describe, she shot at cops and was killed. I fail to see how that is any different than what happened in this case with Martin. If you aim a gun at a police officer, the chances are that the officer will shoot you.

Really??? IMO it is HUGELY different. A 90 year old woman who's eyesight and hearing is probably not that good shot at men that just broke down her door and were in her house. She likely had NO IDEA they were police. It was THEIR MISTAKE for not doing due diligence and confirming who lived inside the house.

Sheesh if I saw someone sneaking up on my home I would likely shoot them the moment they forced the door open as well. I am not going to assume every "home intruder" is really a cop that just happened to "get the wrong house" at 3 am. If they started shooting my dogs (and they would) then I might not even care if I was shooting at cops.

I am all for defending LEO but there are reasonable limits; breaking into innocent people's homes, terrorizing them, making them fear for their life and shooting their pets crosses the limit IMO.

 

[Confusion]

Correct that we can see the world from very different perspectives & that's cool.
<SNIP>
Scary to think that posts continue to talk about "dirty" LE which has nothing to do with this case.

I can see we aren't really communicating here, so I'll just make one more point (again) and drop it. I have NEVER said that this officer was dirty or did anything wrong, and I never said that AM was an innocent victim. What I did say, several times, is that people who have bad experiences with the not so clean LEOs, or witness/hear about others dealing with them (which is sometimes just stories told to save face) may expect bad behavior when dealing with LE and act disrespectful, hostile, uncooperative, etc. even more so than they would have otherwise. No doubt there are others who would behave that way no matter how they grew up, but I believe in many cases it's just self-fulfilling prophecies. You expect to be mistreated and you are more inclined to act in ways that will confirm your beliefs.

The same is true for LEOs. Those who look at a suspect and expect trouble from him/her are much more likely to find it than those who expect and give respect until other actions are needed. I'm guessing this officer was expecting acceptable behavior, or AM would probably never have been walking away, and would have been very unlikely to be able to pull out a gun and aim it before the LEO made any kind of aggressive move against him.

MOO

 

[tlcya]

I can see we aren't really communicating here, so I'll just make one more point (again) and drop it. I have NEVER said that this officer was dirty or did anything wrong, and I never said that AM was an innocent victim. What I did say, several times, is that people who have bad experiences with the not so clean LEOs, or witness/hear about others dealing with them (which is sometimes just stories told to save face) may expect bad behavior when dealing with LE and act disrespectful, hostile, uncooperative, etc. even more so than they would have otherwise. No doubt there are others who would behave that way no matter how they grew up, but I believe in many cases it's just self-fulfilling prophecies. You expect to be mistreated and you are more inclined to act in ways that will confirm your beliefs.

The same is true for LEOs. Those who look at a suspect and expect trouble from him/her are much more likely to find it than those who expect and give respect until other actions are needed. I'm guessing this officer was expecting acceptable behavior, or AM would probably never have been walking away, and would have been very unlikely to be able to pull out a gun and aim it before the LEO made any kind of aggressive move against him.

MOO

while your points may be valid in the more global discussion about the mistrust some have of LE. It really is not well suited to THIS specific discussion. In this specific case a young criminal with an already long rap sheet opted to pull a gun and attempt to fire at a police officer who was not firing upon him, was not doing anything other than his job of attempting to report to a call from a business about shoplifters. The end.

So while I think this country has huge issues and a conversation, a real honest conversation going BOTH directions needs to take place. I don't feel like this is the thread for it. In this case, the facts are pretty doggone clear cut. Nothing ambigous in this officer involved shooting. To quote the mayor of Berkeley &#8220;They&#8217;re out here protecting us every day and sometimes it comes to the point where they have to take necessary action,&#8221; said Hoskins. &#8220;That&#8217;s what occurred.&#8221;

http://fox2now.com/2014/12/24/berkeley-mayor-supports-police-action-in-fatal-shooting/

 

[Confusion]

while your points may be valid in the more global discussion about the mistrust some have of LE. It really is not well suited to THIS specific discussion. In this specific case a young criminal with an already long rap sheet opted to pull a gun and attempt to fire at a police officer who was not firing upon him, was not doing anything other than his job of attempting to report to a call from a business about shoplifters. The end.

So while I think this country has huge issues and a conversation, a real honest conversation going BOTH directions needs to take place. I don't feel like this is the thread for it. In this case, the facts are pretty doggone clear cut. Nothing ambigous in this officer involved shooting. To quote the mayor of Berkeley “They’re out here protecting us every day and sometimes it comes to the point where they have to take necessary action,” said Hoskins. “That’s what occurred.”

http://fox2now.com/2014/12/24/berkeley-mayor-supports-police-action-in-fatal-shooting/

You're right, there's time and place for everything, and this is neither. When I said those things originally, it was in response to people arguing about dirty cops vs cop hating criminals (and others). Since I had said I didn't think either party in this case fit in with what I had said, I probably should have just waited for the correct time and place to come about. Sorry for adding to the distractions. As for Hoskins' statement, as much as I hate to admit it, I'd rather see an 18 year old be the one shot than the officer in a situation like this. I really hate the fact that anyone ever feels that it's necessary to shoot someone else, but this isn't a perfect world. MOO again.

 

[tlcya]

I know, sorry if I sounded argumentative, not the intent. But this case here, this one I feel strongly should never have been a part of that larger conversation. And IMO, had not the HuffPo gone off all half cocked with their hoax twitter witness, that conversation never would have crept into this specific case. So my frustration is reserved for the HuffPo and those who despite now having the facts of this specific shooting and yet continue to try to make this specific shooting bout everything larger that has overtaken this country since August of this year.

 

[MyBelle]

Really??? IMO it is HUGELY different. A 90 year old woman who's eyesight and hearing is probably not that good shot at men that just broke down her door and were in her house. She likely had NO IDEA they were police. It was THEIR MISTAKE for not doing due diligence and confirming who lived inside the house.

Sheesh if I saw someone sneaking up on my home I would likely shoot them the moment they forced the door open as well. I am not going to assume every "home intruder" is really a cop that just happened to "get the wrong house" at 3 am. If they started shooting my dogs (and they would) then I might not even care if I was shooting at cops.

I am all for defending LEO but there are reasonable limits; breaking into innocent people's homes, terrorizing them, making them fear for their life and shooting their pets crosses the limit IMO.

If you wish to shoot first, that's your decision. We don't know what the old lady knew. You said she shot at cops and they shot back. I think that's what they are allowed, by law, to do. I seriously doubt they had their weapons pointed at an old lady but even if they did, they were justified because she had a gun. I'm not going to criticize the cops in that case or this one which happened outside with a man pointing a gun at the officer.

 

[jennapuppy]

You're right, there's time and place for everything, and this is neither. When I said those things originally, it was in response to people arguing about dirty cops vs cop hating criminals (and others). Since I had said I didn't think either party in this case fit in with what I had said, I probably should have just waited for the correct time and place to come about. Sorry for adding to the distractions. As for Hoskins' statement, as much as I hate to admit it, I'd rather see an 18 year old be the one shot than the officer in a situation like this. I really hate the fact that anyone ever feels that it's necessary to shoot someone else, but this isn't a perfect world. MOO again.

I think that most of the posters here at WS agree that this isn't a case of a dirty killer cop. However, the initial response of bystanders in the community would lead one to believe that they think it is. Therefore, in light of their responses, it is an appropriate place to have this discussion. When you have livestreamers, protesters, instigators - whatever you want to call them - listening to police scanners and then showing up at crime scenes to cause havoc before the facts of the crime are known, you have a problem that needs to be discussed somewhere. JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I think that most of the posters here at WS agree that this isn't a case of a dirty killer cop. However, the initial response of bystanders in the community would lead one to believe that they think it is. Therefore, in light of their responses, it is an appropriate place to have this discussion. When you have livestreamers, protesters, instigators - whatever you want to call them - listening to police scanners and then showing up at crime scenes to cause havoc before the facts of the crime are known, you have a problem that needs to be discussed somewhere. JMO

I believe the problem all along hasn't been that bystanders got involved, I believe the problem is that politicians got involved. The Governor relieved the white police chief and placed a black state trooper in charge. President Obama sent four representatives of his office to the funeral. When an issue that really had nothing to do with race are allowed to be politicized in this manner then chaos will follow.