18 y/o Black male shot dead by Police in St Louis suburb of Berkeley MO

[Sonya610]

I think cops serving no knock warrants usually need a good reason to kill someone in the house, such as somebody points a gun at them. Has there been a case where they entered the wrong house and shot innocent, unarmed people?

Yes there have been cases. A few years ago in Atlanta they got a tip (from an informant) and raided a house for dealing drugs, the owner, a 90 year old lady living alone, shot at them and was killed. Obviously it was the WRONG house.

I think they changed their policy regarding "no knock" warrants after that incident. As a dog owner those no knock warrants always scared the heck out of me, heck even an alarm system is scary because it "invites" the police into your house. I have no problem with the police but I don't want them around my dogs.

Do burglars tend to burst into the bedroom shouting and shining huge flashlights into your room ?

IMO if they make a mistake on a house things can go VERY bad. I live alone, if someone started to actually break/enter they would be shot without being identified if possible (bullets go through walls and most doors just fine, it is strategically safer to shoot a home intruder before they see you). Course I would likely get shot to death in return if the invaders were police but the point is no knock warrants are TOO DANGEROUS if they are not 100% sure they have the right house.

 

[deoneta]

I think the whole thing is a vicious cycle. I think we all know that there are racist LEOs, and that there are non-white criminals. Where I think the biggest problems lie are in other LEOs (not all) covering up, denying and/or ignoring those who are racists and use racial profiling to harass members of other races (I don't believe this is just a black/white issue), as well as those who should be charged with DV, DUI, theft, assault, and a number of other crimes. In addition to those who refuse to call out a co-worker for bad behavior, there are also DAs, judges, etc. who do their best to avoid prosecution in many of those cases.

On the other side of the coin are those who see one LEO act that way and assume they're all that way. The next time these people have encounters with LE, they're going to be less trusting, respectful, polite, co-operative or whatever words fit. The same is true for friends, family, neighbors, and others who witness the harassment of one person, and expect it to be them the next time. As more of them start treating LEOs with hostility, more LEOs are going to start expecting that behavior during any interaction with a member of that race, ethnic group, age group, religion, etc., which will just lead to more distrust (and, most likely, hatred.)

I really don't know what the answer is. It's very possible that this young man pulled out the gun because he had seen and/or heard about too many others being killed by LE to feel totally comfortable, these boys/men may not have even been the shoplifters (I haven't heard anything about the shop owner identifying them) and he was just tired of racial profiling (which the officer wasn't doing from what I've seen and heard.) I wouldn't expect the officer to first tell him to drop the gun with all of the upheaval there has been recently, and he had no way of knowing the safety was on so he could possibly have warned him first. There was also no way for him to know that the others he had been with didn't also have guns, and they were pretty much on all sides of him. He's lucky it wasn't a group looking to kill a LEO or two, or another person could have shot and killed him when he fell after he shot. MOO

BBM
In the 15 months since turning 17, Martin has faced several criminal charges. According to St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar, they include three assaults, an armed robbery, unlawful use of a weapon, armed criminal action and stealing.

Read more: http://www.kmov.com/news/editors-pi...criminal-charges-286802351.html#ixzz3N6G71QrZ

I believe it more likely that AM, who was already facing charges, didn't want to get caught carrying a weapon and decided to shoot it out instead, but that's just MOO. He may have forgotten about the safety in a panic mode or simply have been unfamiliar with a newly acquired weapon.

 

[liljim]

i think he failed to get the safety off or forgot it was on because he was extremely high/drunk.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Not trusting LE doesn't mean folks think it's cool to kill cops.

I still haven't found this "yay, cop killer!" culture y'all keep talking about. Some folks on twitter don't speak for all black people and/or the anti-police brutality movement. Someone having a livestream account doesn't make them a leader.

You can examine why PoC are protesting and why they feel like they can't trust LE. Or you can call them thugs some more. " !" This movement isn't going away. People are upset and are going to continue to be upset. The longer you choose to ignore or discount them, the less chance of their being any positive resolution to this strife. Once again, being upset about the disproportionate number of black folks killed by LEO doesn't mean you think killing LEO is a fine idea.

Some people are upset at the protestors who basically chanted death threats towards LE. People are upset at the burning, looting, violence that they saw during the protests.
Do their feelings matter?
There's always many points to be taken when studying a situation/event.
But it is human nature for us to focus on whatever angle we are comfortable with.

We are all guilty of that.

I posted a proposed method of resolution in my previous thread for I feel that violence only begets more violence.

Moo

 

[SCHMAE]

I think the whole thing is a vicious cycle. I think we all know that there are racist LEOs, and that there are non-white criminals. Where I think the biggest problems lie are in other LEOs (not all) covering up, denying and/or ignoring those who are racists and use racial profiling to harass members of other races (I don't believe this is just a black/white issue), as well as those who should be charged with DV, DUI, theft, assault, and a number of other crimes. In addition to those who refuse to call out a co-worker for bad behavior, there are also DAs, judges, etc. who do their best to avoid prosecution in many of those cases.

On the other side of the coin are those who see one LEO act that way and assume they're all that way. The next time these people have encounters with LE, they're going to be less trusting, respectful, polite, co-operative or whatever words fit. The same is true for friends, family, neighbors, and others who witness the harassment of one person, and expect it to be them the next time. As more of them start treating LEOs with hostility, more LEOs are going to start expecting that behavior during any interaction with a member of that race, ethnic group, age group, religion, etc., which will just lead to more distrust (and, most likely, hatred.)

I really don't know what the answer is. It's very possible that this young man pulled out the gun because he had seen and/or heard about too many others being killed by LE to feel totally comfortable, these boys/men may not have even been the shoplifters (I haven't heard anything about the shop owner identifying them) and he was just tired of racial profiling (which the officer wasn't doing from what I've seen and heard.) I wouldn't expect the officer to first tell him to drop the gun with all of the upheaval there has been recently, and he had no way of knowing the safety was on so he could possibly have warned him first. There was also no way for him to know that the others he had been with didn't also have guns, and they were pretty much on all sides of him. He's lucky it wasn't a group looking to kill a LEO or two, or another person could have shot and killed him when he fell after he shot. MOO

Great stuff ! We , as a society , are supposed to TELL if we see a crime going on or if we know someone robbed a bank. In fact, we can be charged with a crime if we do not report those things. But within LE circles it seems quite the opposite and I think a lot of ' good cops' turn their backs if they see some ' bad cops' doing their thing. Of course, it isn't all and of course there are great LEOs and I want to / tend to believe the huge majority of LEO's are doing the job for the right reason and are by the book and will not allow their partners and co workers to get away with anything underhanded.
""The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"" --whoever said this is right ! This goes for every side, LE and the population at whole. We are ALL allowing evil to triumph !

 

[SCHMAE]

Back to this case, 18 yr old. I saw some initial video looking down at the incident. It seemed to me at that time, I could not tell what he held and/ or pointed in his hand at LE . Did better video come out or is that the only angle? TIA

 

[Sonya610]

Back to this case, 18 yr old. I saw some initial video looking down at the incident. It seemed to me at that time, I could not tell what he held and/ or pointed in his hand at LE . Did better video come out or is that the only angle? TIA

Much better video from a different camera:

[video=youtube;Zd4Z7jqOxQI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd4Z7jqOxQI[/video]

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Great stuff ! We , as a society , are supposed to TELL if we see a crime going on or if we know someone robbed a bank. In fact, we can be charged with a crime if we do not report those things. But within LE circles it seems quite the opposite and I think a lot of ' good cops' turn their backs if they see some ' bad cops' doing their thing. Of course, it isn't all and of course there are great LEOs and I want to / tend to believe the huge majority of LEO's are doing the job for the right reason and are by the book and will not allow their partners and co workers to get away with anything underhanded.
""The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"" --whoever said this is right ! This goes for every side, LE and the population at whole. We are ALL allowing evil to triumph !

What I don't like is this: some posters use the tactic in this discussion of placing LE and criminals on the same playing field. Like they are equal. This is not true. This sweeping attempt at generalizations making both subsets equal really is a disgrace & IMO, logically flawed. Next we will be hearing about how we should as taxpayers fund the families of criminals who die committing crimes, right? Do you see where these broad generalizations lead to?

LE has a specified role. They are supposed to carry guns. They are required to put their life on the line for us citizens everyday.

Criminals do not have the same role within our society.

It is important to keep the differences separate. Propaganda & hype attempt to blur the differences, iykwim?


All moo

 

[stmarysmead]

N

What I don't like is this: some posters use the tactic in this discussion of placing LE and criminals on the same playing field. Like they are equal. This is not true. This sweeping attempt at generalizations making both subsets equal really is a disgrace & IMO, logically flawed. Next we will be hearing about how we should as taxpayers fund the families of criminals who die committing crimes, right? Do you see where these broad generalizations lead to?

LE has a specified role. They are supposed to carry guns. They are required to put their life on the line for us citizens everyday.

Criminals do not have the same role within our society.

It is important to keep the differences separate. Propaganda & hype attempt to blur the differences, iykwim?


All moo

BRAVO! and I think you are on to something. This moral equivalence...this movement to shield the criminal records.... to show pictures of a twelve year old instead of what is on Facebook....to hide the social media...it is all part of the faux moral equivalency.

It's as if the way they were LIVING their lives is to be forbidden from the national conversation.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Much better video from a different camera:

Just an observation: AM has a backpack on the front & back??

 

[tlcya]

Yes, angle 2 allowed me to see that AM is apparently wearing at least one backpack and possibly carrying another sling type pack over his shoulder dangling toward his front. If the gas station reported shoplifting by a person wearing a bag or backpack that would certainly cause the LEO on arriving to want to question AM. Alternatively even if the gas station personnel did not report a description of the alleged shoplifter, someone with bags or backpacks would catch the attention of an LEO investigating shoplifting's attention.

 

[leah]

Are we assuming the two boys shoplifted at that store, because why would you stand in front of a store you just stole from? Surely the police have the name and have spoken to the boy that ran back into the store after the shooting. A person would have to be high as a kite to point a gun at a cop, unless he was suicidal, and there sure doesn't seem to be any indication of that right now at least. I have watched different angles of the videos several times, and the actions of the boys and girls with the stroller, all really weird to me. Maybe I didn't see this, or it got lost in all the conversation, but at the end, was that the cop that ran off after the shooting? If it was, do cops just run off like that, or wouldn't they stay around the squad car? It seems you would be more of a target running like that?

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Humans have been blaming others for their own actions for years. It is easier to point a finger than look within and make change.

This young criminal that lost his life due to his own actions, had a lengthy history of committing crimes against other people. Every crime that he committed has a life long lasting effect on his victims, including this one that got him killed.

We don't know enough about this particular criminals life to try to understand why he would make the choice to coldly commit acts of crime against citizens over and over again, instead of choosing a path of becoming a productive citizen in society.

I don't imagine that those that choose a criminal lifestyle, or want free will to break any laws, are going to like anyone that may stand in their way or hold them accountable for their actions.

Attempting to remedy the problem with young people choosing a life of crime, would require much change within the environment that they are exposed to.

The glorification of violence in media and the ability for like minded individuals to find, support and encourage each other through SM, no matter how depraved they are, further enables individuals that are engaging in criminal activity. To many have become numb over time, to the glorification of violence and drugs among youth and have taken on a laid back attitude that "kids will be kids." Or, maybe they have thrown their hands up in the air because they feel hopeless over the problem.

What I find disgusting, is how many times I have looked at a young persons FB page that is brandished with drugs, guns, violence and gang symbols and see that their loved ones are "liking" their posts instead of calling them out for inappropriate behavior.

I have a really hard time believing that a loved one of someone that is running around committing acts of violence on the streets, doesn't fear they may get that phone call one day!

There will be change when and only when, people stop pointing the finger the other way, stop glorifying bad behavior and start addressing the many issues that surround young people, including this young persons bad choice that ended his life.

 

[oh_gal]

Reedus,

Not necessarily on this forum, but in social media there are claims that the gun was planted with supposed photographic proof, that he was pulling out a phone to video not a gun, that the officer should of tazed him instead of shooting, that the video was doctored, that he was alive for 30 minutes but the police wouldn't call EMS, etc. I think many people who acknowleged that the young man DID pull a gun bring up stories of where white subjects in similar situations would not have been shot.

ETA: there is also a lot of emphasis on the dash and body cams not being on even though there is other video footage available and explanations for those cameras not running. There does appear to be more cameras at the store than what we have seen footage from if that makes sense. I guess it's possible that they are holding some footage that shows the scene more closely and more graphically until the investigation is complete but that's conjecture on my part.

(above, bbm)
White guy. Shot by cops a few days ago for appearing to rummage around in the back of his pants for a weapon.
http://fox8.com/2014/12/26/police-called-in-the-past-to-home-of-man-shot-killed-by-officer/

 

[tlcya]

Are we assuming the two boys shoplifted at that store, because why would you stand in front of a store you just stole from? Surely the police have the name and have spoken to the boy that ran back into the store after the shooting. A person would have to be high as a kite to point a gun at a cop, unless he was suicidal, and there sure doesn't seem to be any indication of that right now at least. I have watched different angles of the videos several times, and the actions of the boys and girls with the stroller, all really weird to me. Maybe I didn't see this, or it got lost in all the conversation, but at the end, was that the cop that ran off after the shooting? If it was, do cops just run off like that, or wouldn't they stay around the squad car? It seems you would be more of a target running like that?

As far as I know we have no information on whether AM or his companion were shoplifting. All we know is that the LEO arrived at the gas station because of a report from the station about shoplifting. On arriving at the station we see him interact with AM and companion. I was speculating that young men just exiting the store with backbpacks or bags might catch the officer's attention. To my knowledge we do not know how close the officer was to the scene when got the shoplift call. Was he two blocks over, arriving immediately? Was he given a description of the alleged shoplifters? All unknown.

Then AM can be seen moving away from the exchange and then moving back toward the officer while fumbling around near his waist. His arm comes up to point at the officer, what is in his hand is not clear (to me) in the video but he is in a shoot stance. After the shooting a gun was found on the scene, safety on.

When AM's arm comes up in what appears to me to be a shooter's stance the officer draws his weapon and begins firing while stumbling backwards. He then gets up and runs a short distance aware behind the gas pumps. Possibly worried about others drawing on him or possibly worried about bystanders attacking him since he just shot a black man, but that is just supposition on my part. He then returns to the squad car/shooting area of the parking lot.

As to why AM pointed the gun at the LEO, we cannot know but it is possible that he had been the shoplifter reported by gas station or with a record such as his, including for possession of a firearm, he did not wish to be detained and was worried about interaction with police as he was carrying a weapon, again. Perhaps he felt ten foot tall and bullet proof. Young people make stupid decisions and feel invincible. How much more so with a gun?

Bottom line, IMO the officer is lucky to be alive. AM is unlucky in that his choices caused his death before he had a chance to possibly become something other than a criminal who draws on an officer of the law.

 

[miimaa]

I was a passenger in a car that was pulled over for failure to come to a complete stop at an intersection. Soon as we stopped I opened the glove box to find the registration and insurance papers as that is always asked for. I IMMEDIATELY HAD A GUN POINTED IN MY FACE AND HEARD THE WORDS "PUT YOUR HANDS UP". I complied and explained what I was doing. The cop told me he did KNOW that I wasn't getting a weapon. I completely and fully comprehend that he was correct in that assumption.

 

[Trident]

I bought a book this morning by Taleeb Starkes, a black man. So far I've been able to read a large portion on Kindle, and in my opinion, he is right on. He is outright saying what so many of us know instinctively, want to point out, but are too constrained, one way or another, to say.

 

[miimaa]

I bought a book this morning by Taleeb Starkes, a black man. So far I've been able to read a large portion on Kindle, and in my opinion, he is right on. He is outright saying what so many of us know instinctively, want to point out, but are too constrained, one way or another, to say.

"An uncivil war"?

 

[tlcya]

thank you Trident. I will be purchasing Mr. Starkes book. I am very interested to read what he has to say on the subject.

 

[Trident]

"An uncivil war"?

Yes, and there are a few others that looked interesting also.