2009.03.20 Document Release

[Searchfortruth]

This was your reply to my post, and I absolutely agree that normal parents/ grandparents would have done this. ALL of this, plus probably more to stop the madness.

Remember how people who knew her have said over and over that Casey didn't really stand out in HS, wasn't really extremely good or very bad?.. Wasn't in any " crowd" of either good or bad? Kind of the invisible type. Cindy was said to be " over-protective" and " hovering". I see it very well.This type of young female IS dominated by her mother at home. The mother attempts to control and live vicariously through the female child. Jealousy of the maturing young woman is a prominent feature of a mother with poor ego boundaries like I believe Cindy had and has, and hyper-criticism is also a prominent feature of the dynamics of the mother, which may be disguised as " overly helpful" or " extremely watchful", or even " babying". The mother is conveying to her daughter that the child/ teen/ adult lacks qualities needed to " be safe", to make sound decisions, to stand on her own two feet.
The daughter's reactions are usually avoidance, self- doubt, and inner resentment. Together, the jealousy, the criticism, the lack of privacy and boundaries are extremely toxic in a young girl's development of a sense of self- worth and also of the critical development of her own judgment skills. In the extreme, the intrusion of the mother into the psyche of her daughter can cause a serious mental illness to develop in the maturing teenager. Usually, we would expect to see depression, dependency issues, and extremely low self- esteem. We would also expect to see features which are clearly evident: lack of respect for the boundaries of others and jealousy of her own child. I doubt there were proper ego boundaries on Cindy's part from Casey's early childhood onwards.

I have never seen even one single photo of Casey with Cindy when she was a child, but would love to see a photo album of the two of them. I think it would be extremely revealing. Casey didn't learn good parenting because it wasn't displayed in her home. She apparently was able to play nice at school, and IF she was " bad" at home, we don't know anything about sociopathic behavior during her childhood or HS teen years. Also, it seems to me that until Caylee was born, the most that could be said about Cindy publicly was that Cindy was a professional nurse with a responsible position ( she was a supervisor at a home health care agency), and probably, from what Casey became, was in a a push- pull / conflict/ smothering type of pattern with Casey, as descried above.

This IS a sick family. They have never established " rank". There was always a push/ pull between at least Cindy and Casey, and probably with George thrown in too. I don't know enough about Lee to know how he was treated or how he coped.
Cindy assumed a position of absolute control out of fear.
People who feel the need to control situations in the household and in other people's lives do so out of personal fear. Cindy does not trust anyone in her life to any degree.

I do NOT know the source of Cindy's initial fear and control with Casey when she was growing up. But, I do believe Casey was parented with conflicting elements of over-control and over-indulgence. This is extremely confusing to a child and teen. I think Casey found a false and fleeting sense of self- identity and self-esteem through interactions with males who flattered her and paid attention to her after she physically matured and changed. I think she used her female friends ( friend being a very shallow term for Casey) but probably has sought a secure relationship with a man because her relationship with her mother was so volatile and inconsistent for most, if not all, of her life.

I would expect an adult aged Casey to distrust all females to a great extent and to manipulate people for her own want and needs. A child manipulates its world for its own wants and needs. Casey is stuck in an immature state of emotional growth, one that operates on the pleasure principle, but makes quite a lot of painful missteps and falls. The child who is parented with great conflicting messages is stuck in an " I want, I need" mentality with no empathy for the world around her, or any other person.
I believe Casey changed the entire family dynamics when she got pregnant with Caylee at a young age with great gaps in her own emotional maturity, as you have read in my posts about the control Casey held over her family through threats about taking Caylee away from them.
Casey observed Cindy all her life, resented her, and also learned what control gave a person. Caylee was the only " thing' Casey ever "possessed" to give her any control. Caylee was who Casey's parents loved most. When she saw that her mother's greatest weakness was Caylee, Casey manipulated her parents through the tug of war over Caylee. The resentment against them remained, their resentments of her remained, and she resented their love for her child because it took love away from her, in her eyes. Casey needed her parents love, but she didn't love them.
Casey saw Caylee as a part of her own self. Caylee was never a separate person to Casey. She always " belonged" to Casey like a possession would.

When Casey decided to exert her own form of control, it was totally off kilter. Both the acts of a child who was raised by wolves turned loose in Disneyland, and the acts of a child raised in Disneyland turned loose in a world full of wolves. Casey never learned or was able to distinguish the importance of truth over lies, and her truths were lies, and her basis for evil. Again, sociopathy in an anti-social personality.

Thank you for this wonderful post !

:clap::clap::clap:

 

[Duckley]

It should have been their love for Caylee that made them NOT cater to Casey's whims. True love for Caylee would have been for her mother to BE her mother and for them to have encouraged this and supported it. True love does not attempt to smother another persons love or "one-up" it. Casey was Caylee's mother, and they should have insisted that she BE that instead of doing what they had done in every other situation in which Casey found herself, which was to take care of it for her.

As for them "looking over" her atrocities for their love of Caylee? That is not love. That is weakness and dependency, but not love. Love does not look over and allow negligent, immoral and or unethical behavior as its source. If they loved her so much, then they should have let her go like the old saying goes. In letting go they may have been able to save her. In clinging and looking over all the wrong, in the end, they did nothing to protect her and look where she ended up-dead. I am not saying it was their "fault". I am saying that they enabled her all those years in all of her other behaviors and continue to enable her to this very day and cover and lie for her. Caylee is gone, and yet, the enabling of Casey beats on. If it was about their love for Caylee then it would have ended when they knew Caylee was gone. This is not the case. It still has not ended and I doubt that it ever will. When one "looks over" crime and allows it to grow larger and more serious in order to have ones own will fulfilled, one is not engaging in "love" one is engaging in dependency.

Also regarding the "therapy" that Cindy went for, her mother tells us in this new doc dump that she went, was told to toss Casey and knew that she could not possibly do this and never went back again. That is not therapy. Therapy would have been to have done the deed and tossed her out on her ear.

I just wanted to add, that I think Cindy's pride has been her nemisis. I think Cindy is very concerned about what "the neighbours will think!" The denial and covering up by Cindy was her way of maintaining the veneer that A's were the all American family. Cindy would not tolerate anything that would detract from that myth - Caseys pregnancy, her unemployment, mooching, stealing, lying etc. were all covered up, denied, or dismissed by Cindy - and now the murder of her Grand daughter.

I so see Cindy as a major villian in this tragedy. My respect for her will be gained when she finally comes clean!

 

[Duckley]

This was your reply to my post, and I absolutely agree that normal parents/ grandparents would have done this. ALL of this, plus probably more to stop the madness.

Remember how people who knew her have said over and over that Casey didn't really stand out in HS, wasn't really extremely good or very bad?.. Wasn't in any " crowd" of either good or bad? Kind of the invisible type. Cindy was said to be " over-protective" and " hovering". I see it very well.This type of young female IS dominated by her mother at home. The mother attempts to control and live vicariously through the female child. Jealousy of the maturing young woman is a prominent feature of a mother with poor ego boundaries like I believe Cindy had and has, and hyper-criticism is also a prominent feature of the dynamics of the mother, which may be disguised as " overly helpful" or " extremely watchful", or even " babying". The mother is conveying to her daughter that the child/ teen/ adult lacks qualities needed to " be safe", to make sound decisions, to stand on her own two feet.
The daughter's reactions are usually avoidance, self- doubt, and inner resentment. Together, the jealousy, the criticism, the lack of privacy and boundaries are extremely toxic in a young girl's development of a sense of self- worth and also of the critical development of her own judgment skills. In the extreme, the intrusion of the mother into the psyche of her daughter can cause a serious mental illness to develop in the maturing teenager. Usually, we would expect to see depression, dependency issues, and extremely low self- esteem. We would also expect to see features which are clearly evident: lack of respect for the boundaries of others and jealousy of her own child. I doubt there were proper ego boundaries on Cindy's part from Casey's early childhood onwards.

I have never seen even one single photo of Casey with Cindy when she was a child, but would love to see a photo album of the two of them. I think it would be extremely revealing. Casey didn't learn good parenting because it wasn't displayed in her home. She apparently was able to play nice at school, and IF she was " bad" at home, we don't know anything about sociopathic behavior during her childhood or HS teen years. Also, it seems to me that until Caylee was born, the most that could be said about Cindy publicly was that Cindy was a professional nurse with a responsible position ( she was a supervisor at a home health care agency), and probably, from what Casey became, was in a a push- pull / conflict/ smothering type of pattern with Casey, as descried above.

This IS a sick family. They have never established " rank". There was always a push/ pull between at least Cindy and Casey, and probably with George thrown in too. I don't know enough about Lee to know how he was treated or how he coped.
Cindy assumed a position of absolute control out of fear.
People who feel the need to control situations in the household and in other people's lives do so out of personal fear. Cindy does not trust anyone in her life to any degree.

I do NOT know the source of Cindy's initial fear and control with Casey when she was growing up. But, I do believe Casey was parented with conflicting elements of over-control and over-indulgence. This is extremely confusing to a child and teen. I think Casey found a false and fleeting sense of self- identity and self-esteem through interactions with males who flattered her and paid attention to her after she physically matured and changed. I think she used her female friends ( friend being a very shallow term for Casey) but probably has sought a secure relationship with a man because her relationship with her mother was so volatile and inconsistent for most, if not all, of her life.

I would expect an adult aged Casey to distrust all females to a great extent and to manipulate people for her own want and needs. A child manipulates its world for its own wants and needs. Casey is stuck in an immature state of emotional growth, one that operates on the pleasure principle, but makes quite a lot of painful missteps and falls. The child who is parented with great conflicting messages is stuck in an " I want, I need" mentality with no empathy for the world around her, or any other person.
I believe Casey changed the entire family dynamics when she got pregnant with Caylee at a young age with great gaps in her own emotional maturity, as you have read in my posts about the control Casey held over her family through threats about taking Caylee away from them.
Casey observed Cindy all her life, resented her, and also learned what control gave a person. Caylee was the only " thing' Casey ever "possessed" to give her any control. Caylee was who Casey's parents loved most. When she saw that her mother's greatest weakness was Caylee, Casey manipulated her parents through the tug of war over Caylee. The resentment against them remained, their resentments of her remained, and she resented their love for her child because it took love away from her, in her eyes. Casey needed her parents love, but she didn't love them.
Casey saw Caylee as a part of her own self. Caylee was never a separate person to Casey. She always " belonged" to Casey like a possession would.

When Casey decided to exert her own form of control, it was totally off kilter. Both the acts of a child who was raised by wolves turned loose in Disneyland, and the acts of a child raised in Disneyland turned loose in a world full of wolves. Casey never learned or was able to distinguish the importance of truth over lies, and her truths were lies, and her basis for evil. Again, sociopathy in an anti-social personality.

Excellent and insightful post. You must be a Family Therapist!

I wonder if part of the reason Casey chose to become pregnant was that she saw this as one of the only ways to exert her independence - to have an identity. I used to work with pregnant teens and i remember the mantra - if I cant have a mother, I'll be a mother. The need for unconditional love from someone...

 

[itsreenw]

I find it strange in CC's interview when they ask for name and date of birth CC says CC and "Sept, um not September, July..." What is up with that?!

Yeah, I caught that, too. How do you forget your birth month? Obviously that month was on his mind for some reason. I'm surprised LE didn't inquire about that

 

[magic-cat]

Hey all. Did anyone ever determine if there actually ARE 2 conflicting reports, as I referred to in one of my previous posts, concerning the cell phone records/text messages etc? I did read in the MIB report somewhere that they had been informed by whomever the carrier was, AT&T maybe? that there were 2 different types of reports and or file types and the system was incapable as of now of producing one single report that includes all the info that would show up on those 2 reports. Has anyone else seen this? Is this in association with something entirely different? Am I losing my skills? Is there anyone else who recalls reading about this in the MIB reports?

 

[ibyoungr]

Hey all. Did anyone ever determine if there actually ARE 2 conflicting reports, as I referred to in one of my previous posts, concerning the cell phone records/text messages etc? I did read in the MIB report somewhere that they had been informed by whomever the carrier was, AT&T maybe? that there were 2 different types of reports and or file types and the system was incapable as of now of producing one single report that includes all the info that would show up on those 2 reports. Has anyone else seen this? Is this in association with something entirely different? Am I losing my skills? Is there anyone else who recalls reading about this in the MIB reports?

Yes, I read that ATT pulls their reports from 2 different sources. At this time they have no way to merge them.

You are correct.

 

[magic-cat]

Yes, I read that ATT pulls their reports from 2 different sources. At this time they have no way to merge them.

You are correct.

I appreciate the confirmation-was beginning to think I was going looney...not too far of a jump on this roller coaster ride!:waitasec:

 

[JWG]

(This is what I get for posting past my bed time. I should have posted here and not in the March 5 thread. :slap

When I first read pages 5201 and 5202 of the most recent discovery release I did not view the information as anything more than "blah". Then it occurred to me that LE may have found something interesting when they ran the toxicology analysis on Caylee's remains (reports of which have yet to be released).

On discovery page 5201 you will notice that CSI-II Bloise is asked to collect swab samples from the comb found in the Dora backpack left in the car as well as from the package of baby wipes left in the backpack. These swabs are handed over to another investigator along with swabs taken early last August from the gas cans.

Methinks something was found in the hair, and the comb is to be tested to see if anything was left on it (i.e. - was what was found in the hair "normal"), and the baby wipes are to be tested to see if they might be eliminated as a source of what was found in the hair. :waitasec:

As for the gas cans...if residue found in the hair matches the gas can swabs, then that is pretty good circumstantial evidence that the cans and body were both in the trunk either at the same time or not too far removed.

 

[magic-cat]

(This is what I get for posting past my bed time. I should have posted here and not in the March 5 thread. :slap

When I first read pages 5201 and 5202 of the most recent discovery release I did not view the information as anything more than "blah". Then it occurred to me that LE may have found something interesting when they ran the toxicology analysis on Caylee's remains (reports of which have yet to be released).

On discovery page 5201 you will notice that CSI-II Bloise is asked to collect swab samples from the comb found in the Dora backpack left in the car as well as from the package of baby wipes left in the backpack. These swabs are handed over to another investigator along with swabs taken early last August from the gas cans.

Methinks something was found in the hair, and the comb is to be tested to see if anything was left on it (i.e. - was what was found in the hair "normal"), and the baby wipes are to be tested to see if they might be eliminated as a source of what was found in the hair. :waitasec:

As for the gas cans...if residue found in the hair matches the gas can swabs, then that is pretty good circumstantial evidence that the cans and body were both in the trunk either at the same time or not too far removed.

You know JWG, maybe if there was a hair in the comb then they could test that hair and know if what was found in the hair was in their prior to the date of her death as well? Perhaps there were some hairs left in her personal brush that might also have showed something in the toxicology studies and if it was in the hair in the brush and or the comb, then that would surely go to show that she had been drugging Caylee for more than that one single lethal time? Possible...

 

[Marina2]

(This is what I get for posting past my bed time. I should have posted here and not in the March 5 thread. :slap

When I first read pages 5201 and 5202 of the most recent discovery release I did not view the information as anything more than "blah". Then it occurred to me that LE may have found something interesting when they ran the toxicology analysis on Caylee's remains (reports of which have yet to be released).

On discovery page 5201 you will notice that CSI-II Bloise is asked to collect swab samples from the comb found in the Dora backpack left in the car as well as from the package of baby wipes left in the backpack. These swabs are handed over to another investigator along with swabs taken early last August from the gas cans.

Methinks something was found in the hair, and the comb is to be tested to see if anything was left on it (i.e. - was what was found in the hair "normal"), and the baby wipes are to be tested to see if they might be eliminated as a source of what was found in the hair. :waitasec:

As for the gas cans...if residue found in the hair matches the gas can swabs, then that is pretty good circumstantial evidence that the cans and body were both in the trunk either at the same time or not too far removed.

I was thinking that they could have collected those swabs in order to find "touch DNA". It's possible that they obtained touch DNA from the duct tape found with Caylee's remains instead of fingerprints.

 

[jamielynn]

Hi Guys,
Please forgive me if this already answered. Was the bounty hunter interviewed by LE? I have been reading doc dumps and have not seen that. If any one has a link, I would appreciate it.

 

[ibyoungr]

Bolded by me.
What I bolded is not correct. Caylee was born August, 2005. Casey graduated, or almost graduated, in the spring of 2004.
The rest is what I have seen, as well. Yeah, Casey did lie about the dog, but who didn't lie about one stupid thing or another?
I've read a lot of the other posts on here about this becoming so blatant because she had a baby and didn't want all the responsibility that entailed, but it doesn't quite fit. This interview with Melina seems to imply, at least to me, Casey didn't start lying or one-upping until recently in their relationship. The reason for their on-again, off-again relationship up the then seemed to be because they were going in different directions. There were no rumors of her being a liar or being easy in high school. It still seems to me this is more of an abrupt change of personality than one building up over most of her life.
JMO
Lanie

Correct.. my bad.. She started dating JG the first of 2005. Do you know when she started at Universal?

 

[ibyoungr]

(This is what I get for posting past my bed time. I should have posted here and not in the March 5 thread. :slap

When I first read pages 5201 and 5202 of the most recent discovery release I did not view the information as anything more than "blah". Then it occurred to me that LE may have found something interesting when they ran the toxicology analysis on Caylee's remains (reports of which have yet to be released).

On discovery page 5201 you will notice that CSI-II Bloise is asked to collect swab samples from the comb found in the Dora backpack left in the car as well as from the package of baby wipes left in the backpack. These swabs are handed over to another investigator along with swabs taken early last August from the gas cans.

Methinks something was found in the hair, and the comb is to be tested to see if anything was left on it (i.e. - was what was found in the hair "normal"), and the baby wipes are to be tested to see if they might be eliminated as a source of what was found in the hair. :waitasec:

As for the gas cans...if residue found in the hair matches the gas can swabs, then that is pretty good circumstantial evidence that the cans and body were both in the trunk either at the same time or not too far removed.

I am like you.. the reports on the surface do not say much. However, they can ADD information that was previously redacted if it is something they are still investigating.

In this doc dump,THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS or the LACK OF. Back to reading.


Once again, JWG.. Great job!

 

[dax]

*Lastname snipped*

IMHO, this appears to be another error in the LE report.

At exactly the time LE's report states, 20:33:39 on 6/17, after placing a call to Time & Weather (as LE's report correctly states), Casey received an INCOMING call from G&C's home phone and let it roll to vmail. There were no outgoing calls until 21:12:56...which was a call placed to Tony L.

Also, FWIW, the lastname provided in LE's report has the same first initial as the lastname of Casey's best guy-friend...also a Ryan P...however, his lastname sounds sorta like "Days Lee".

Hope that helps.

bolded by me....

I'm confused by this post. The recent docs I read have this occurrence on JUNE 27 (the weather and Ryan P) not JUNE 17 as stated above.

Is there another report concerning the cell phone?

 

[Marina2]

The items in the Dora backpack were dusted for fingerprints (p5201-5202). It's reported that no latents were found. My question is: How does one not leave fingerprints on a tube of toothpaste, toothbrush, pack of baby wipes, or a comb? I would think fingerprints would be readily available on these items.

 

[Chilly Willy]

Yeah, I caught that, too. How do you forget your birth month? Obviously that month was on his mind for some reason. I'm surprised LE didn't inquire about that

Did CC's interview take place in September? Maybe he thought he was being asked for the current date and realized it was his birthdate he was actually asked for.

 

[kant]

I've gone over the docs more than once; (Too much to absorb in a one-time read One thing that amazes me is the initial date given as the last date of the family members having seen Caylee is June 9... NINE!! not Monday the 16th - not the Mon after Father's Day... which is what the story morphed into later after the video made on Sun the 15th of Caylee with great grandfather surfaced.

The even weirder part in the docs for me is that not just George, for example, or not just ONE of them said the 9th.

"The 9th" came up by more than just one person in the family. I get it that in a stressful, horrible situation people freak out and mis-remember dates and such; but how does more than one person misremember the same... wrong... date? How likely is that? Really, how likely is that? Head scratcher.

 

[Seebra]

I've gone over the docs more than once; (Too much to absorb in a one-time read One thing that amazes me is the initial date given as the last date of the family members having seen Caylee is June 9... NINE!! not Monday the 16th - not the Mon after Father's Day... which is what the story morphed into later after the video made on Sun the 15th of Caylee with great grandfather surfaced.

The even weirder part in the docs for me is that not just George, for example, or not just ONE of them said the 9th.

"The 9th" came up by more than just one person in the family. I get it that in a stressful, horrible situation people freak out and mis-remember dates and such; but how does more than one person misremember the same... wrong... date? How likely is that? Really, how likely is that? Head scratcher.

CA gave the date as the 9th. KC heard her, and ran with that date.

GA, IMO, just went with what his wife said, and when CA realized the mistake she corrected all of them by moving it to 6/16.

 

[Lanie]

CA gave the date as the 9th. KC heard her, and ran with that date.

GA, IMO, just went with what his wife said, and when CA realized the mistake she corrected all of them by moving it to 6/16.

But CA didn't realize the mistake and correct it. LE found the video of Father's Day. Melich called Cindy and asked her if they could be mistaken about the date. She told him she would have to call her mother to find out, and she would do it the next day. Melich was telling her this needed to be taken care of. (This is related to N Savage by Cindy in their interview.)
I totally get what the previous poster is saying. At first I blew this off as a simple mistake, but not one single person ever says, hey, wait a minute... It takes LE almost forcing the issue to get the correct date on the table.
Lanie

 

[dax]

I've gone over the docs more than once; (Too much to absorb in a one-time read One thing that amazes me is the initial date given as the last date of the family members having seen Caylee is June 9... NINE!! not Monday the 16th - not the Mon after Father's Day... which is what the story morphed into later after the video made on Sun the 15th of Caylee with great grandfather surfaced.

The even weirder part in the docs for me is that not just George, for example, or not just ONE of them said the 9th.

"The 9th" came up by more than just one person in the family. I get it that in a stressful, horrible situation people freak out and mis-remember dates and such; but how does more than one person misremember the same... wrong... date? How likely is that? Really, how likely is that? Head scratcher.

I think this has more to do with CA than anything else. She obviously bullys GA...imo, and I don't think he puts much thought into what he says. It seems to me that he didn't question the date because he has been programmed to go along with whatever CA says. As for KC, I think it suited her to say the 9th. She knew it was the 16th because she counted the days....."31 days"....this was just another way to hamper the investigation....imo