2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

[magic-cat]

NTS, we did point you to the official docs from Henkel that clearly described the composition of that particular brand of duct tape. At that point you began arguing that perhaps the tape was manufactured in China, and because Chinese manufacturing standards seem to be of lesser quality than US standards, perhaps the Chinese manufacturing plant "forgot" to use fabric containing cotton. :bang: When we pointed out that the Henkel and Shurtape websites state that their manufacturing facilities are located only within the lower 48 United States, you argued that the website might be in error, and that it did not "prove" they did not outsource the tape manufacture to a third party. :snooty:

At that point I packaged up all the posts involved in the exchange and sent the whole thing to Linda Kenny-Baden and told her that her work was done. :thumb:

Beautiful as usual!

 

[LambChop]

Because the glue on the tape, protects the fabric. If there is glue, then there is protected fabric, yet no cotton. That would indicate that the tape was made without cotton. Hence no match. IMO

Sorry I just don't understand your reasoning and I will let it go at that. Respectfully, I will trust the reports and what I see in the evidence photos. No more, no less. My grandmother use to say, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." I respect that you are entitled to your opinion, as am I. Thanks

 

[LambChop]

Truth: a statement that is generally believed to be true
Fact: something known to be true

I believe the reports are based on facts that are known to be true. Need I say more.

 

[treeseeker]

Although there was no adhesive or stickiness left to the duct tape, there may have been a small amount of residue. The residue may have encased some of the hairs in the mat, the rest of the hairs being held by tangling. This residue, having been exposed to the elements with some components washed away and with debris mixed in, might not be suitable for forensic comparison to the original adhesive. The FBI report didn't elaborate on the debris on the tape. There were also fibers, IIRC, that we've not seen a report on.

 

[LambChop]

Although there was no adhesive or stickiness left to the duct tape, there may have been a small amount of residue. The residue may have encased some of the hairs in the mat, the rest of the hairs being held by tangling. This residue, having been exposed to the elements with some components washed away and with debris mixed in, might not be suitable for forensic comparison to the original adhesive. The FBI report didn't elaborate on the debris on the tape. There were also fibers, IIRC, that we've not seen a report on.

Treeseeker: If you look at some of the pictures and granted they are not the best, but you can see fibers on the tape. Not sure how they are attached unless they are part of the construction of the tape, i.e. poly. But it is also possible these poly fibers may have been sticky enough to hold the tape together and become entangled with the hair mat holding everything together. Just a guess here. JMO

 

[treeseeker]

I agree, Lambchop. I don't think the hair mat was stuck to the tape as we would normally envision it. Probably more entangled.

 

[LambChop]

Snipped

At that point I packaged up all the posts involved in the exchange and sent the whole thing to Linda Kenny-Baden and told her that her work was done. :thumb:

JWG: I just want to say JWG that I appreciate all the work to help us understand some of the questions about the duct tape. Thanks, again.

 

[BobbieBu]

I just now saw these pictures and it makes me sad. Makes a tear come to my eyes. I had a hard time looking at these pics because it was knowing that caylees dna and mouth was stuck to this duct tape. Just makes it a little more real.
Very sad very sad!

 

[Tulessa]

Tickets for this ride have expired. Please click for larger image. No refunds will be issued. :innocent:

View attachment 8911

That was a priceless lol moment!!

 

[flourish]

For some this may be a ride, but for me it certainly is not (at least I didnt think it was when I finally joined WS). My apologies, but I have yet to delve into this particular issue and thought the thread was here for discussion.

So, I think there's been a misunderstanding...when Sleutherontheside posted the "tickets are expired" post, it wasn't in reference to like, "Oh, yay, a ferris wheel! Whoo hoo it's so much fun!"

It was more like a "haven't we had this same circular argument already over and over and over and over...gee, I feel like I'm on a carousel ride!"

and/or a "I have the feeling we're about to be taken for a ride!" with the word "ride" being a metaphor for a pointless and fruitless journey.

I think she was trying to remind some of us that getting our hackles up might be the point and to stop and think before getting on the metaphorical ride.

Anyway, so, yeah, this thread is for discussion, but as someone else mentioned, there's been lots and lots and lots of discussion here previously, which is why it's a great idea to plod through the old posts. It's tedious at first, but I found it was the most helpful task I could have done when I first arrived here. Another thing that helped me was I befriended a long-time user and asked them to point me in the right directions. HTH.

Yeah, I'm totally off topic, I know, so I'll bring it back around

------------------------------------------------------------
Let's take this opportunity to remind ourselves of Occam's Razor, or the idea that "one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything," (one of many like-minded definitions...this was handiest).

Now, for me, in my opinion, the idea that some pieces of incredibly rare duct tape would just happen to float or otherwise make its way over to a skull and get itself so perfectly wrapped and entangled, or otherwise attached in some fashion, to the skull and hair, which somehow did not float away when all that duct tape floated in, that the skull's mandible remained attached, along with a bunch of the victim's miraculous non-floating hair is an explanation which certainly increases the number of necessary entities required to explain ANYTHING. IMO

 

[Astraea]

So, I think there's been a misunderstanding...when Sleutherontheside posted the "tickets are expired" post, it wasn't in reference to like, "Oh, yay, a ferris wheel! Whoo hoo it's so much fun!"

It was more like a "haven't we had this same circular argument already over and over and over and over...gee, I feel like I'm on a carousel ride!"

and/or a "I have the feeling we're about to be taken for a ride!" with the word "ride" being a metaphor for a pointless and fruitless journey.

I think she was trying to remind some of us that getting our hackles up might be the point and to stop and think before getting on the metaphorical ride.

Anyway, so, yeah, this thread is for discussion, but as someone else mentioned, there's been lots and lots and lots of discussion here previously, which is why it's a great idea to plod through the old posts. It's tedious at first, but I found it was the most helpful task I could have done when I first arrived here. Another thing that helped me was I befriended a long-time user and asked them to point me in the right directions. HTH.

Yeah, I'm totally off topic, I know, so I'll bring it back around

------------------------------------------------------------
Let's take this opportunity to remind ourselves of Occam's Razor, or the idea that "one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything," (one of many like-minded definitions...this was handiest).

Now, for me, in my opinion, the idea that some pieces of incredibly rare duct tape would just happen to float or otherwise make its way over to a skull and get itself so perfectly wrapped and entangled, or otherwise attached in some fashion, to the skull and hair, which somehow did not float away when all that duct tape floated in, that the skull's mandible remained attached, along with a bunch of the victim's miraculous non-floating hair is an explanation which certainly increases the number of necessary entities required to explain ANYTHING. IMO

Thank you flourish for that very honest and succinct post. I truly appreciate that more then you could possibly know. I do understand that many here have made up their minds and I honestly respect that, but I have yet to make up my mind as I dont think all the evidence is available to me yet. I hope that makes sense as I truly dont mean to offend anyone

I did read through the duct tape thread (this one), and of course opened the docs attached within and was struck by the wording in the report. I am sure the defense is questioning the tape evidence, but we of course are not privy to the reason yet. I was looking for the angle that they may be looking to take on this subject. After reading the wording in the report, which turned out to be the wrong report, I of course quickly asked for redirection to the proper report. Can someone direct me there now? As I was pretty discouraged after last night I must admit (I had some personal things to tend to as well).

Just for clarities sake, I did not state that I believed the duct tape floated there.

 

[BondJamesBond]

:cop: Alright then. Move along. Move along everybody. Nothing to see here. Get movin'...nothing to see here. Go on 'bout your business. :cop:

Somebody say somethin' 'bout duct tape? :waitasec:

 

[flourish]

:cop: Alright then. Move along. Move along everybody. Nothing to see here. Get movin'...nothing to see here. Go on 'bout your business. :cop:

Somebody say somethin' 'bout duct tape? :waitasec:

Okay okay, officer, I just erased like, four paragraphs I just worked very hard writing...you happy? :innocent::angel:

Duct tape, yes, duct tape. It's sticky, it overlaps itself well in many formations, it comes in many types and styles and has thread content. Cotton rots quickly. Cotton threads rot quickly. In my opinion there's not reason to think the cotton threads would remain "protected" by adhesive or residue or whatever.

I will now drag my off-topic self to another thread...or better yet, off to bed.

 

[ynotdivein]

Bumping for NTS. Photos of 2 pieces of overlapping duct tape before the pieces were separated and straightened out.

Thank you AZ.

I know we've seen non-existent kitties and nannies and whatnot in this case to date but this pic struck me in a way it didn't the first time I saw it... am I alone in being able to discern the shape of a face in the tape?

 

[Dignity4Victims]

NTS, we did point you to the official docs from Henkel that clearly described the composition of that particular brand of duct tape. At that point you began arguing that perhaps the tape was manufactured in China, and because Chinese manufacturing standards seem to be of lesser quality than US standards, perhaps the Chinese manufacturing plant "forgot" to use fabric containing cotton. :bang: When we pointed out that the Henkel and Shurtape websites state that their manufacturing facilities are located only within the lower 48 United States, you argued that the website might be in error, and that it did not "prove" they did not outsource the tape manufacture to a third party. :snooty:

At that point I packaged up all the posts involved in the exchange and sent the whole thing to Linda Kenny-Baden and told her that her work was done. :thumb:

:floorlaugh: One of the most appropriate and absolute funniest things I've read on this entire board - all threads! :floorlaugh:

 

[BondJamesBond]

Okay okay, officer, I just erased like, four paragraphs I just worked very hard writing...you happy? :innocent::angel:

Duct tape, yes, duct tape. It's sticky, it overlaps itself well in many formations, it comes in many types and styles and has thread content. Cotton rots quickly. Cotton threads rot quickly. In my opinion there's not reason to think the cotton threads would remain "protected" by adhesive or residue or whatever.

I will now drag my off-topic self to another thread...or better yet, off to bed.

FWIW. RE: deterioration of fibers:

A thesis done for Masters @ LSU by Ms. Kellie Marie Gordon, May 2003. :thumb:

"A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS OF THE DETERIORATION RATES OF TEXTILES AND THEIR ROLE IN DETERMINING POSTMORTEM INTERVAL"

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-0407103-131120/unrestricted/Gordon_thesis.pdf

 

[AZlawyer]

Thank you AZ.

I know we've seen non-existent kitties and nannies and whatnot in this case to date but this pic struck me in a way it didn't the first time I saw it... am I alone in being able to discern the shape of a face in the tape?

Well, I see the shape of a face in the sense that you can see where the tape went over the jawline...but no images if that's what you mean.

 

[FaerieB]

Thank you AZ.

I know we've seen non-existent kitties and nannies and whatnot in this case to date but this pic struck me in a way it didn't the first time I saw it... am I alone in being able to discern the shape of a face in the tape?

Thank you. I'm not generally given to pareidolia, but could definitely see the shape of Caylee's face in those photos.

 

[LambChop]

FWIW. RE: deterioration of fibers:

A thesis done for Masters @ LSU by Ms. Kellie Marie Gordon, May 2003. :thumb:

"A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS OF THE DETERIORATION RATES OF TEXTILES AND THEIR ROLE IN DETERMINING POSTMORTEM INTERVAL"

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-0407103-131120/unrestricted/Gordon_thesis.pdf

Thank you, Bond. Interestingly this thesis points out that cotton exposed to water causes degradation of the fiber. Because cotton is a vegetable fiber and a complex carbohydrate (simple sugar) this could account for why the tape remained stuck together. As the body decomposed and the cotton degraded the cellulose may have formed it's own "sticky" binding to hold the tape together. Glue is gone but the simple sugar would indeed be sticky.

It's good reading. Thanks, again.

 

[A_News_Junkie]

Treeseeker: If you look at some of the pictures and granted they are not the best, but you can see fibers on the tape. Not sure how they are attached unless they are part of the construction of the tape, i.e. poly. But it is also possible these poly fibers may have been sticky enough to hold the tape together and become entangled with the hair mat holding everything together. Just a guess here. JMO

The original fiber is a weaved net and the gray part is solid sheet and the weaving keeps it together along with the heating process when made, is my guess. Here is a funny but neat video -
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUMjcqQL2EI[/ame]

Here is a cool report - FBI no less!!!!!!!!
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/jan2007/research/2007_01_research01.htm