2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

[beach]

For bangs the FBI guys just say "head hair."

"Fringe hair" may or may not include forearm hair--it's a little unclear from the FBI definitions we've been looking at. I'm wondering if "fringe hair" would include the little tiny hairs on the back of your hands. Could Casey have wrapped Q104 around Caylee's hands instead of around her wrists, to prevent her from reaching up and picking at the tape on her mouth/nose?

I agree - the definition of 'fringe hair' seems somewhat subjective to me, especially considering we are talking about a 2 1/2 yr. old child.

However, the word 'abdomen' stuck out to me like a sore thumb, when reading Harmony's post with the FBI definition. Somewhat consistent with the t-shirt fibers.

for clarity: I don't think the tape was applied directly to the abdomen, but .... heck, I don't know what I think anymore right now.
I just want to know why there seems to be evidence of the t-shirt fibers on Q104. I think hands/arms seems most plausible. At this moment. Of course, that could change in about 10 minutes.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I actually think they're talking about vellus hairs and this clipped piece will explain it quite well:

"Human hair is classified into two main types: fine, vellus hair; and the coarser, more visible terminal hair. Except for the palms of the hands and the soles of the feet, most of the human body’s areas of seemingly bare skin are actually covered with very fine vellus hairs that may be almost invisible except under very close or microscopic inspection. There are several distinct subtypes of terminal hair. For example, eyelash hairs, called cilia, are different from head and body hair. Pubic (groin) and axillary (armpit) hairs are also different from terminal hairs on the head and are associated with different types of glands in the skin. Even scalp hairs have several different sub-groupings. For example, there is a fringe of very fine hair surrounding the circumference of the head. This hair undergoes a gradual change in thickness from the bare skin appearance of the vellus hair to the dense, thick hair of the crown. Similarly, the hair above the ears or at the base of the neck is not as coarse as that of the crown or the top of the head."

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/res...restoration/chapter-2-hair-and-its-functions/

and this:

"In both sexes, vellus hairs can be found all over the body, barring certain areas like the lips, the nose, the eyelids, the forehead, behind the ears, the palms, the soles of the feet, the navel and the terminal hair root sections. The fine hair found on the face, on the backs of the finger and the toes, and on the trunk is vellus hair. When a person hits puberty, certain hair-modulating chemicals known as androgens transform vellus hairs into terminal hairs in some areas, and induce new hair growth in other areas. For instance, there are changes in the vellus facial hair and body hair in males, and the appearance of armpit and pubic hair in both men and women."

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-vellus-hair.htm

ETA: I've not been able to find any medical definitions of fringe hair.

 

[AZlawyer]

I actually think they're talking about vellus hairs and this clipped piece will explain it quite well:

"Human hair is classified into two main types: fine, vellus hair; and the coarser, more visible terminal hair. Except for the palms of the hands and the soles of the feet, most of the human body’s areas of seemingly bare skin are actually covered with very fine vellus hairs that may be almost invisible except under very close or microscopic inspection. There are several distinct subtypes of terminal hair. For example, eyelash hairs, called cilia, are different from head and body hair. Pubic (groin) and axillary (armpit) hairs are also different from terminal hairs on the head and are associated with different types of glands in the skin. Even scalp hairs have several different sub-groupings. For example, there is a fringe of very fine hair surrounding the circumference of the head. This hair undergoes a gradual change in thickness from the bare skin appearance of the vellus hair to the dense, thick hair of the crown. Similarly, the hair above the ears or at the base of the neck is not as coarse as that of the crown or the top of the head."

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/res...restoration/chapter-2-hair-and-its-functions/

ETA: I've not been able to find any medical definitions for fringe hair.

ETA: I've not found any medical definitions of fringe hair.

and this:

"In both sexes, vellus hairs can be found all over the body, barring certain areas like the lips, the nose, the eyelids, the forehead, behind the ears, the palms, the soles of the feet, the navel and the terminal hair root sections. The fine hair found on the face, on the backs of the finger and the toes, and on the trunk is vellus hair. When a person hits puberty, certain hair-modulating chemicals known as androgens transform vellus hairs into terminal hairs in some areas, and induce new hair growth in other areas. For instance, there are changes in the vellus facial hair and body hair in males, and the appearance of armpit and pubic hair in both men and women."

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-vellus-hair.htm

ETA: I've not been able to find any medical definitions of fringe hair.

Thanks--I guess that might include both forearm hair and hair on the back of the hands?

Most importantly, Q104 was the ONLY piece of Henkel tape at the scene that did NOT contain any "head hairs." IMHO this is because it was not on Caylee's head.

 

[Harmony 2]

I agree AZ... that is what I have always thought.

red fibers were found on Q104 duct tape (Page 696 of 1405) http://www.wftv.com/news/21185313/detail.html#

The red fibers on Q104 could have come from the red plaid blanket that Cindy mentions in her depo. I believe that blanket is missing. Just mentioning it because it may lead to a different theory about the placement of Q104.


Part 2 Cindy’s depo, page 143/325:

Q Okay. The blue bin that's shown in Exhibit 15, is that the blue bin that was in the trunk?
A Yes. That -- I took that out of the trunk.
Q Okay. Were there items in the blue bin that you recall at this time?
A Typically there's a blanket and some other items. I don't know why they're not in there. I don't know so
Q Do you have a specific recollection of what else was in the blue bin?
A I know typically, when I would see casey's car, there would be a blanket that was - - like a red-plaid blanket and then her car-seat covers. Those she could have taken out. But the last time I had seen it, I—truthfully, I don’t recall if there’s stuff in there, but typically that’s what was in the bin in the back.

I attached a photo of a shirt like Caylee's for reference.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Thanks--I guess that might include both forearm hair and hair on the back of the hands?

Most importantly, Q104 was the ONLY piece of Henkel tape at the scene that did NOT contain any "head hairs." IMHO this is because it was not on Caylee's head.

When I read that Q104 did not contain any "head hairs", I realized it would be impossible to put tape across a small face and not make contact with the hair. The contact with the hair is the explanation as to why the tape was still in place after six months and the jaw was still attached to the skull in the first place.

I began thinking about the amount of hair a little two, almost three year old has on their body. Maybe a little peach fuzz but I've never seen a child as young as three with noticable body hair, so ~

What if the "fringe" hair on the Q104 duct tape is hair that is consistant with that belonging to KC? That would explain how LE concluded it was she who must have placed the tape on Caylee as evidenced by one of KC's fringe hairs (whatever type that is) clinging to the underside of a piece of tape at the scene. After they determined the hair was consistent to one that you would find on KC, they put the DP back on the table.

Possible?

 

[mitzi]

Here is a printscreen of it:

Having used printed duct tape on a former job, and being right-handed myself (are KC/GA/CA right-handed?), when I would tear off a piece of tape and then put the roll down, it would be in this position as in the screenshot. In other words, the words on the tape are read from left to right and the cut or torn edge would be on the right...next piece of tape I would grab would be:

1. grab cut edge of tape in right hand
2. pull tape off roll to length I want
3. cut piece of tape off roll
4. place piece of tape on pkg, or in KC's case, Caylee's face, in same direction that tape came off roll.

 

[beach]

Having used printed duct tape on a former job, and being right-handed myself (are KC/GA/CA right-handed?), when I would tear off a piece of tape and then put the roll down, it would be in this position as in the screenshot. In other words, the words on the tape are read from left to right and the cut or torn edge would be on the right...next piece of tape I would grab would be:

1. grab cut edge of tape in right hand
2. pull tape off roll to length I want
3. cut piece of tape off roll
4. place piece of tape on pkg, or in KC's case, Caylee's face, in same direction that tape came off roll.

BBM


Thank you, mitzi! That was what I was thinking, too.


I don't guess you'd recall seeing the word or Henkel logo, eh? :angel:


just kiddin'!

 

[beach]

When I read that Q104 did not contain any "head hairs", I realized it would be impossible to put tape across a small face and not make contact with the hair. The contact with the hair is the explanation as to why the tape was still in place after six months and the jaw was still attached to the skull in the first place.

I began thinking about the amount of hair a little two, almost three year old has on their body. Maybe a little peach fuzz but I've never seen a child as young as three with noticable body hair, so ~

What if the "fringe" hair on the Q104 duct tape is hair that is consistant with that belonging to KC? That would explain how LE concluded it was she who must have placed the tape on Caylee as evidenced by one of KC's fringe hairs (whatever type that is) clinging to the underside of a piece of tape at the scene. After they determined the hair was consistent to one that you would find on KC, they put the DP back on the table.

Possible?

BBM

Somebody correct me if I am wrong -

I am pretty sure that I read/heard that the fringe hairs are not good candidates for DNA analysis. So, even if LE and the SA suspected it, I am almost positive it would have no evidentiary value. Especially not enough to put the DP back on the table. Just no PROOF, iykwim.


The more I think about it, the more I am on board with AZ's theory of it being used to bind Caylee's arms/hands. I am leaning more toward the hands. And, think the fringe hairs probably belong to Caylee. jmho

 

[LambChop]

BBM

Somebody correct me if I am wrong -

I am pretty sure that I read/heard that the fringe hairs are not good candidates for DNA analysis. So, even if LE and the SA suspected it, I am almost positive it would have no evidentiary value. Especially not enough to put the DP back on the table. Just no PROOF, iykwim.


The more I think about it, the more I am on board with AZ's theory of it being used to bind Caylee's arms/hands. I am leaning more toward the hands. And, think the fringe hairs probably belong to Caylee. jmho

And there would be no reason to bind her hands unless she were still alive.

 

[beach]

And there would be no reason to bind her hands unless she were still alive.

Exactly. :cry:

 

[joypath]

BBM

Somebody correct me if I am wrong -

I am pretty sure that I read/heard that the fringe hairs are not good candidates for DNA analysis. So, even if LE and the SA suspected it, I am almost positive it would have no evidentiary value. Especially not enough to put the DP back on the table. Just no PROOF, iykwim.


The more I think about it, the more I am on board with AZ's theory of it being used to bind Caylee's arms/hands. I am leaning more toward the hands. And, think the fringe hairs probably belong to Caylee. jmho

"I am pretty sure that I read/heard that the fringe hairs are not good candidates for DNA analysis. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!

Any hair that does not contain a root bulb will not be acceptable for DNA testing and to further "muddy" the waters, microscopic comparison to other examplars is also not conducted USUALLY since the types of fringe hair samples are so varied. PS: fringe hair may sometimes be a rather catch all term for some "non-anatomical-type scientists" for non-head hair when NOT being specific about the body area. (Yep, I really did mean robotic like scientists 'cause there are analysts like that in labs who "forget" that the specimen belongs to a PERSON!). :banghead:
And beach, while I agree the evidentiary value is probably nil, wow it sure does add IMHO to the heinous value!:furious:

 

[faefrost]

BBM

Somebody correct me if I am wrong -

I am pretty sure that I read/heard that the fringe hairs are not good candidates for DNA analysis. So, even if LE and the SA suspected it, I am almost positive it would have no evidentiary value. Especially not enough to put the DP back on the table. Just no PROOF, iykwim.


The more I think about it, the more I am on board with AZ's theory of it being used to bind Caylee's arms/hands. I am leaning more toward the hands. And, think the fringe hairs probably belong to Caylee. jmho

yeah. And that alone is a strong reason why the SA would put the DP back on the table so fast and so absolutely. We can argue all we want about if the duct tape was placed on the face before or after death. But duct tape on the hands means only one thing. The tape was applied to a live Caylee. That raises the bar to a truly heinous act.

 

[Tulessa]

Can I ask where you got that statement? Is it a news story? It appears to be out of context. I remember him saying in the beginning that Kc was assumed innocent. I thought the whole thing was a theory, this appears to be a statement of fact. thanks

The December 11th hearing.

Listen if you would like. I don't think this is O/T since it concerns the duct tape.

Starting at 7:23, but I suggest you listen to the entire thing....

http://wdbo.com/Player/100499161/

 

[Woe.be.gone]

BBM

Somebody correct me if I am wrong -

I am pretty sure that I read/heard that the fringe hairs are not good candidates for DNA analysis. So, even if LE and the SA suspected it, I am almost positive it would have no evidentiary value. Especially not enough to put the DP back on the table. Just no PROOF, iykwim.


The more I think about it, the more I am on board with AZ's theory of it being used to bind Caylee's arms/hands. I am leaning more toward the hands. And, think the fringe hairs probably belong to Caylee. jmho

Possibly. Just want to say that whenever I propose something it's not that I think I'm right. Any theory is alive as far as I'm concerned. If anything I've ever posted turns out to be true, I'll be surprised but will tell myself, 'trust yourself as you could be right just as much as the next guy'. But I'm not trying to be right.

That said, the post I made about the fringe hair possibly belonging to KC came to me because of a Forensics show I watched not long ago. There had been a car submerged in water for four days and TES (yes, our TM!) came to sonar the body of water and pulled the car out of the lake. After that, the forensic experts painstakingly used tape to comb the interior of the vehicle collecting evidence to see if the Perp had been inside the victim's vehicle. To their amazement, they found a single hair. By microscopic examination, they realized it was a match to arm hairs of the Perp.

So based on the above and the comment in post 518 regarding limb hairs and fringe hairs that reads, "their presence may help to corroborate info obtained during an investigation.", the thought popped into my head that maybe the hair they found on the tape was consistent to belonging to KC. That would prove to strengthen the case that the tape had been placed by her hand.

Adding: You are correct that these types of hairs are not sources of DNA but they can be matched to a person.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

"I am pretty sure that I read/heard that the fringe hairs are not good candidates for DNA analysis. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!

Any hair that does not contain a root bulb will not be acceptable for DNA testing and to further "muddy" the waters, microscopic comparison to other examplars is also not conducted since the types of fringe hair samples are so varied. PS: fringe hair may sometimes be a rather catch all term for some "non-anatomical-type scientists" for non-head hair when NOT being specific about the body area. (Yep, I really did mean robotic like scientists 'cause there are analysts like that in labs who "forget" that the specimen belongs to a PERSON!). :banghead:
And beach, while I agree the evidentiary value is probably nil, wow it sure does add IMHO to the heinous value!:furious:

Maybe the show called 'Extreme Forensics' is just bs then.

I wish I had a clique. Oh well. :twocents:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

If the fringe hair found on Q104 is KC's, that does not exclude the possibility that the tape was used to bind Caylee's hands. :waitasec:

 

[Anais]

If the fringe hair found on Q104 is KC's, that does not exclude the possibility that the tape was used to bind Caylee's hands. :waitasec:

Oh now I'm gonna cry. How much more awful can the scenario possibly get?! After what I just read in another thread I am not feeling all that well. I just cannot comprehend how any mother could possibly do such a thing to their child?

So it is my understanding that the other tape was from another body area but did not stick as the tape tp her face/mouth area did? TIA

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Oh now I'm gonna cry. How much more awful can the scenario possibly get?! After what I just read in another thread I am not feeling all that well. I just cannot comprehend how any mother could possibly do such a thing to their child?

So it is my understanding that the other tape was from another body area but did not stick as the tape tp her face/mouth area did? TIA

Yes. I just looked at the pictures of Caylee too. She was a beautiful child. It's beyond me how anyone, let alone her own mother, could hurt her in any purposeful way.
I'll never understand it.

Because the duct tape (Q104) was found away from the skull with no head hair stuck to it (but with something called a 'fringe hair' as well as some fibers),
peeps are theorizing that piece of tape may have been used to tie Caylee's hands. It's heartbreaking indeed.

 

[notthatsmart]

I looked at the photo of the roll of duct tape in that video and I don't know if I am seeing things, but it does look like a faded rounded line just the left of the logo. I wonder if this is actually the torn end of that roll. It also looked to me like it had a huge core, that surprised me. Moo

http://www.clickorlando.com/video/22584510/index.html

 

[beach]

"I am pretty sure that I read/heard that the fringe hairs are not good candidates for DNA analysis. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!

Any hair that does not contain a root bulb will not be acceptable for DNA testing and to further "muddy" the waters, microscopic comparison to other examplars is also not conducted since the types of fringe hair samples are so varied. PS: fringe hair may sometimes be a rather catch all term for some "non-anatomical-type scientists" for non-head hair when NOT being specific about the body area. (Yep, I really did mean robotic like scientists 'cause there are analysts like that in labs who "forget" that the specimen belongs to a PERSON!). :banghead:
And beach, while I agree the evidentiary value is probably nil, wow it sure does add IMHO to the heinous value!:furious:

Thanks joypath!

Last night when I went to bed, I was thinking to myself (YES! I stared at this thread far too long yesterday :crazy - Seems like we are nitpicking the 'fringe hairs' to the extreme considering the FBI's subjective definition, the fact that we are talking about a 2 1/2 yr. old child and that these 'fringe hairs' were collected from a piece of duct tape that layed in a hot, swampy Florida environment for 6 months! I'll be the first one to say that the sciences are not my strongest forte, but those seem like a lot of factors to consider, imo.

Also, ITA that if Q104 was used to bind Caylee's arms and/or hands, that raises the heinous factor to a whole other level.