2009.11.19 Defense files motion suggesting Kronk as the killer. #3

[Woe.be.gone]

I agree with you that this motion will generate more discovery about LE's reports on Kronk. I also think it may generate more discovery on whether or not LE searched the area where Caylee was ultimately found.
Going along with you on the presumption of competence by LE, we would almost have to believe that LE was competent enough to thoroughly search the most obvious place to begin looking for a missing child, which of course would be the wooded area less than half mile from the Anthony home. In giving LE the presumption of competence, and believing they competently searched that wooded area, it brings up the question, how could police, and police dogs, have missed a childs remains that were roughly 10 feet from the woodline in an area that would be the most obvious place to search? Unless, they actually did search thorooughly, and the remains were not there, but placed there at a later time. I realize it is an area with thick vegetation, but if cadaver dogs can even find bodies underwater, it just seems unbelieveable to me that the cadaver dogs didn't alert to the remains so close to the woodline, but again that is presuming the competence of LE.

I don't know the inner workings of LE but I remember the big focus was around bodies of water. Do you think it to be possible that LE skipped over the obvious? What I am asking is, do they not have a standard procedures list? Like, first we search immediate area then we branch out to - etc. I would think they would but what do I know? But with the 31 days and believing at first (not really) that Caylee could have been kidnapped, systems may have gone astray? That, and the weather, could have mucked up the procedural system.

Now, if TES says there was standing water in the area, I believe them as they would have no reason to lie. It almost seems to me that TES found out some inside information before the body was ultimately found. If that's so though, then how did Kronk end up being the one to "close the case" so-to-speak. That is so weird.

TES was being pushed and pulled and hindered imo and TM said that the heavy equipment would disturb a body - he would have been correct, right?

 

[eaglemom]

There's no evidence of mental illness, but there's a lot to suggest Casey is a sociopath. Even her mother said she was a sociopath. Sociopaths have no conscious and are narcissistic, thinking only of themselves. Sociopaths are very good at acting, and will act a role depending on who they're with. People are very easily taken in by sociopaths. They think that what they're seeing is the real person, when it is only a role the person is playing. They're pretty convincing.

This is why JG said that the Casey he sees now, is not the Casey he knew. When Casey was involved in a relationship with JG, she was acting the role of a devoted girlfriend and good mother. This is the mask she presented to JG. What JG is seeing now, is simply the real Casey. The mask is off.

The problem with trying a sociopath for the SA is that most jurors will have no experience with that behavior (at least not termed as such). If they haven't experienced it- it makes it less believable. We have ALL experienced people lying to us, manipulating situations, stealing, etc. I happen to have a step-daughter that I consider a sociopath so I completely understand what you are saying here but MOST people will not understand.

What they will understand is her lying - constantly. I, personally, think it is important that the SA NOT call KC a 'sociopath'. A liar, a manipulative mother who no longer wanted to care for her child, a chameleon who took on her boyfriend's lives -OK.

After the trial they can call her a 'sociopath' or a 'narcissist' or say she is 'bi-polar' based on her behaviors but not during where jurors will then want to adhere to the definition of the 'sociopath' (or whatever) to convict her - whether given that instruction or not by the judge.

MOO

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I definitely don't think Casey has become rich from this crime

No just GA and CA and a bunch of other peeps that have gotten a few nice chunks of change (to include Kronk) for their input. :waitasec: :banghead:

 

[ZsaZsa]

No just GA and CA and a bunch of other peeps that have gotten a few nice chunks of change (to include Kronk) for their input. :waitasec: :banghead:

Mr Kronk has incurred some hefty legal fees thanks to the Anthony rampage.

 

[LambChop]

The problem with trying a sociopath for the SA is that most jurors will have no experience with that behavior (at least not termed as such). If they haven't experienced it- it makes it less believable. We have ALL experienced people lying to us, manipulating situations, stealing, etc. I happen to have a step-daughter that I consider a sociopath so I completely understand what you are saying here but MOST people will not understand.

What they will understand is her lying - constantly. I, personally, think it is important that the SA NOT call KC a 'sociopath'. A liar, a manipulative mother who no longer wanted to care for her child, a chameleon who took on her boyfriend's lives -OK.

After the trial they can call her a 'sociopath' or a 'narcissist' or say she is 'bi-polar' based on her behaviors but not during where jurors will then want to adhere to the definition of the 'sociopath' (or whatever) to convict her - whether given that instruction or not by the judge.

MOO

BBM: I don't think SA will have to, the psychologists who examined her in jail will do that. They will explain what it is and what type of behavior can be expected from people who have this disorder. Don't be too surprised to find out that many jurors will already know because they know someone with this disorder. It is not as uncommon as you might think. And having the disorder does not mean you will murder anyone.

 

[impatientredhead]

I am listening to a local Florida morning show from Monday and they are discussing the Roy Kronk motion as part of the morning news. It is a good reality check every once in awhile to hear what people who are not studying the details think about the headlines.

Their reactions were:

Are you kidding me?
This attorney should be disbarred.
This is why people don't get involved.

and

Lets go back to the beginning, Casey Anthony can't tell us who she gave her child to. Beginning and end of the story for me.

followed by:

And then didn't call for help for 30 days!!!!!!

closed with

And the trunk smells like a dead body.
The rest of this is BS.

Sometimes it is good to step back from the microscopic view and see the story from a distance.

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

I have not seen any other information from them but their interviews. I will look for (I see someone posted link below your post) and continue to gather information. But just based on the interviews, especially the heavier woman who seemed almost traumatized to me, they didn't seem to show signs of deception. But that's just my impression after viewing the tapes. There may be a lot more going on behind the scenes - I agree.

Thank you...ITA !!! Been just trying to find info, too...I'm not the best at that. But....I also think the son, as well, has some issues with his dad.
ALL these "estranged" family members - as I've seen them described - have axes to grind with RK.
I think, in part, it's the fact that until the defense PI started supposedly "investigating" - OR we can say pickin' up where "Rosebud" and DC left off - these family members are crawling out of the woodwork. IF this ex wife HAD such thoughts and had info about duct tape and RK, why wasn't she concerned enough way back when....like when Caylee was found with the duct tape and KC was "supposedly" wrongfully charged....like go to bring these things up to the police....like maybe the fact she was thinkin he had something to do with it when the remains were found???
Sorry, but as big a whackado as JW is, at least she's even taken pics of her feet to LE to look at from the beginning!!! LOL

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Her family and real friends all said they didn't recognize this person in the jailhouse phone calls at all, that she would never let anything happen to Caylee or just go around not knowing where Caylee was and not do anything about it. They all said her personality when she was arrested appeared to be radically changed. Although they had known her to tell what they thought were white lies in the past, always about harmless things. They all said she loved Caylee and would never let harm come to her.

That's true - her original friends all seemed to be supportive of KC in the beginning. That threw me off for a long time. Then I heard Tracy's testimony and thought that KC sounded like a self absorbed clueless individual, unaware of the severity of her circumstance - that was and is that Caylee was presumed to be dead.

Then there are KC's comments such as the one she made to GA that she is supposed to look like a victim. Sounds like he was in on the script if you ask me - I keep going back to that - GA and CA are in on the script.

How Kronk fits into this I haven't a clue. I do remember that GA and CA were conveniently in California on the LK show when Caylee's remains were finally uncovered/discovered. Ummmmm :waitasec:

 

[Wudge]

Legal Analyst Bill Sheaffer on Casey Anthony Case
Witness for the Prosecution or Fall Guy for the Defense?
by billsheaffer on November 24, 2009
<snipped>
Ms. Lyon’s approach, which has been adopted by Baez, Baden and company disregards any consideration other than win at ANY cost, regardless of the truth, or consequence to justice, the fair trial process or any innocent party ground under their boots.

Article:
http://billsheaffer.wordpress.com/2...-the-prosecution-or-fall-guy-for-the-defense/
_______________________________________________________________________________________
I THINK I'M IN LOVE!!!!!:blushing:

(snicker)

No legal analysis from Schaeffer as regards Baez's motion, just a pathetic pandering to his reader's interest in a guilty verdict. Maybe's he's hoping for an 'all guilty all the time' gig like Nancy Grace has.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I know what you are trying to say. I had a mom that was one person to the outside world and the complete oposite when we were alone. This is a personality trait. I've seen it and lived with it.

You could hear KC's horrible attitude and disrespect on the phone to her parents after she was arrested. They sure didn't act like it was the first time she had spoken to them like that.

Why though? Did KC speak to them like that because she's mentally ill, a spoiled brat, a spiteful bi*ch or because she despises them and their lifelong hypocracy?

I'm posing the above question and apologize that it is off topic and has nothing to do with Kronk - we have strayed.

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

(snicker)

No legal analysis from Schaeffer as regards Baez's motion, just a pathetic pandering to his reader's interest in a guilty verdict. Maybe's he's hoping for an 'all guilty all the time' gig like Nancy Grace has.

Now I'm goin into uncharted waters here...BUT.....maybe it's because Schaeffer prefers to sound like someone who the public can relate to.....just the opposite of Hornsby, who used his over-inflated ego and self serving attitude to attack another colleague....AND, he just ended up sounding like someone sat on a big whoopie cushion!! The judge and lawyers gave JB a pretty good azz whoopin last week on JVM....not for the "morality" of his motion...but the whole incompetence of his motion....just sayin'.

OT, Every time you "(snicker)" you make me wanna go off my diet....:crazy:

 

[Wudge]

Now I'm goin into uncharted waters here...BUT.....maybe it's because Schaeffer prefers to sound like someone who the public can relate to.....just the opposite of Hornsby, who used his overinflated ego and self serving attitude to attack another collegue....AND, just ends up sounding like someone sat on a big whoopie cushion!! The judge and lawyers gave JB a pretty good azz whoopin last week on JVM....not for the "morality" of his motion...but the whole incompetence of his motion....just sayin'.

OT, Every time you "(snicker)" you make me wanna go off my diet....:crazy:

I had no problem with Baez's motion. It's legally proper, entirely appropriate in light of Kronk's story and what the P.I. found out about Kronk's background and was well-timed to boot.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Why though? Did KC speak to them like that because she's mentally ill, a spoiled brat, a spiteful bi*ch or because she despises them and their lifelong hypocracy?

I'm posing the above question and apologize that it is off topic and has nothing to do with Kronk - we have strayed.

Not ill. Contemptuous of both of them .. for reasons too numerous to list.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I think the mental illness issue comes up when people have a hard time believing someone can be so evil and cruel and still be sane. I have NO problem recognizing evil and pointing it out. I don't need her to be crazy to understand how she could have done this. I don't need to make peace with it by saying "oh she must be crazy or have mental problems because her mother is so cruel, maybe she reacts this way because of this and this" - I just need her to be selfish and her actions since the day her daughter was born were all self serving.

IMO - KC Anthony is a spoiled, insecure, uneducated, lazy, evil, pathological manipulator who killed her baby because she wanted to be free - I don't need her to be crazy.

I have known a few crazy (yes, really crazy) people in my life. If you asked me about them, like if they had just committed a crime or something, I would tell you that, yes, he/she is crazy but I never anticipated this behavior. So since nobody has said that KC was/seemed crazy I would tend to agree with you.

What I can't understand is why nobody is describing her as the spoiled, pathological manipulator and insecure young woman who we have gotten glimpses of - why haven't they really zoned in on those traits? I don't get it.

 

[wonders]

Thank you...ITA !!! Been just trying to find info, too...I'm not the best at that. But....I also think the son, as well, has some issues with his dad.
ALL these "estranged" family members - as I've seen them described - have axes to grind with RK.
I think, in part, it's the fact that until the defense PI started supposedly "investigating" - OR we can say pickin' up where "Rosebud" and DC left off - these family members are crawling out of the woodwork. IF this ex wife HAD such thoughts and had info about duct tape and RK, why wasn't she concerned enough way back when....like when Caylee was found with the duct tape and KC was "supposedly" wrongfully charged....like go to bring these things up to the police....like maybe the fact she was thinkin he had something to do with it when the remains were found???Sorry, but as big a whackado as JW is, at least she's even taken pics of her feet to LE to look at from the beginning!!! LOL

I have also been wondering if she called LE way back when or any of these people for that matter. Does anyone know?

 

[LambChop]

I think that might be because when friends started to get close to the truth, they either disassociated themselves from her, or she moved on to a newer group of people who were not familiar with her "mistruths". She had texted one friend who is in college and talked about her grades as if she were attending college, too. How could a friend not know you weren't in college? That could also explain why she went through so many bf's. Wonder how many have thought about money that came up missing and think..."I wonder????"

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

I had no problem with Baez's motion. It's legally proper, entirely appropriate in light of Kronk's story and what the P.I. found out about Kronk's background and was well-timed to boot.

Yayyyy...I didn't get the "Wrath of Wudge"....LOL

OK....this will be far TMI....BUT, in as few words as possible....had I found little Caylee's remains, I,too, would HAVE to be considered a "suspect".....nuff said!!

It's just that, often times, people's pasts ARE NOT pretty....BUT....1/2 or 3/4 of the worlds population has more than likely used duct tape for "other" purposes than what it's intended use is.

As I said in my prior post.....IF his ex wife believed what she felt about RK possibly being the killer....and the duct tape story and his anger, etc....why not go to LE with her hunch?? In the very beginning....like the defense SHOULD have done.... researched and brought this up to LE at THAT time...not 2 months before a pretrial hearing. IMO, the defense tactics at THIS particular time in the investigation seem less than honest AND more like the spaghetti against the wall saying. IMO. Maybe that's why it's been met with such disgust, as well....it's NOT "well timed", at all. And, so, almost EVERY witness can be looked upon in the same way if their prior conduct is less than stellar.


What substantial proof (other than his "estranged" family saying so) does the defense have about this theory? I'm sure we ALL remember that in the beginning it was Jesse, his dad, his mom, Amy, Ricardo, least we not forget "Zanny"....so is RK "zanny"??? And...I know it's NOT the defenses "job" to find WHO did it....just who ELSE could have.

The judge/lawyers on JVM stated that, first, the Motion in Limine was something used by the prosecution, and second, is used to NOT include prior bad deeds....NOT to INCLUDE them.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Thank you...ITA !!! Been just trying to find info, too...I'm not the best at that. But....I also think the son, as well, has some issues with his dad.
ALL these "estranged" family members - as I've seen them described - have axes to grind with RK.
I think, in part, it's the fact that until the defense PI started supposedly "investigating" - OR we can say pickin' up where "Rosebud" and DC left off - these family members are crawling out of the woodwork. IF this ex wife HAD such thoughts and had info about duct tape and RK, why wasn't she concerned enough way back when... .like when Caylee was found with the duct tape and KC was "supposedly" wrongfully charged....like go to bring these things up to the police....like maybe the fact she was thinkin he had something to do with it when the remains were found???
Sorry, but as big a whackado as JW is, at least she's even taken pics of her feet to LE to look at from the beginning!!! LOL

bbm

Fear? Fear would be my guess. We don't really know that she didn't approach anybody either (at least I don't know). The duct taped woman suffers cancer and it sounds as if she is the one who Kronk reported as having had died last summer of cancer (but she's alive!). Why would he do that? (so that no one would look for her and talk to her?) It could be that she has all she can take on her plate right now and did not have the strength to come forward on her own. If you've ever had cancer, you'd know what I mean - takes a lot out of you and leaves you shell shocked for awhile.

 

[marspiter]

To my understanding not one of these allegations can be supported by LE records or hospital records. In one account they said Kronk broke his wrist I believe. Is there any record of such?

Other then the testimony of individuals whom have biased opinions of Kronk is there any other evidence to support the allegations against him? I find it interesting that hearsay evidence is all that's needed to string up Kronk for some people, but the huge 600lbs gorilla in the room that is the evidence against Casey some choose to ignore.

Kind of a double standard to me. It's kinda like saying as long as the person isn't the actual defendant of the crime you can accuse anyone of being guilty of what ever you'd like with little to no evidence.

Based on this flimsy evidence of Kronks past with no real evidence and the improper application of in limine and the Williams rule I just don't see this motion being allowed.

 

[Wudge]

Yayyyy...I didn't get the "Wrath of Wudge"....LOL

OK....this will be far TMI....BUT, in as few words as possible....had I found little Caylee's remains, I,too, would HAVE to be considered a "suspect".....nuff said!!

It's just that, often times, people's pasts ARE NOT pretty....BUT....1/2 or 3/4 of the worlds population has more than likely used duct tape for "other" purposes than what it's intended use is.

As I said in my prior post.....IF his ex wife believed what she felt about RK possibly being the killer....and the duct tape story and his anger, etc....why not go to LE with her hunch?? In the very beginning....like the defense SHOULD have done.... researched and brought this up to LE at THAT time...not 2 months before a pretrial hearing. IMO, the defense tactics at THIS particular time in the investigation seem less than honest AND more like the spaghetti against the wall saying. IMO. Maybe that's why it's been met with such disgust, as well....it's NOT "well timed", at all. And, so, almost EVERY witness can be looked upon in the same way if their prior conduct is less than stellar.


What substantial proof (other than his "estranged" family saying so) does the defense have about this theory? I'm sure we ALL remember that in the beginning it was Jesse, his dad, his mom, Amy, Ricardo, least we not forget "Zanny"....so is RK "zanny"??? And...I know it's NOT the defenses "job" to find WHO did it....just who ELSE could have.

The judge/lawyers on JVM stated that, first, the Motion in Limine was something used by the prosecution, and second, is used to NOT include prior bad deeds....NOT to INCLUDE them.

The acronym JVM stands for what?

As regards motions-in-limine, they are certainly not just used by prosecutors. Defense attorneys use them in an effort to get as much alleged probative evidence excluded prior to the start of a trial as possible. Moreover, a pre-trial motion requesting the trial judge to rule on including evidence (as well as excluding it) is entirely proper.