2009.12.11 Discuss Motions hearing. One year to the day Caylee Found #1

[Hot Dogs]

Now, take KC out of the equation and tells us how you think Caylee got the duct tape, three rows to be exact, across her face?

Somebody put it there. It could have been before her last breath or after. Or even both.... one strip on before death, the other two after death.

The point is who on the prosecution side knows? The doc dumps don't answer these questions. The State is charging KC with M1 and being the person who put the tape. But getting into fine line distinctions of the exact moment and disposition of the tape strips is speculative.

IMO, if you don't know for sure based on the physical evidence then skip that part of the narration or say something else that you can fully support.

 

[wenwe4]

I saw him writing down some things while she talked. Probably words she spoke that he didn't understand and will look up later before he makes his decision :furious:

You mean like the word "undergird" (I think that was it - now I have to go and listen again)

 

[Mendara]

Ashton contends that Caylee would have been able to remove the duct tape if she were not restrained? I hope the prosecution does not speculate during the trial. I hope their case is not based on suppositions and ideas.

They must show the jury that premeditated murder by Casey is the only possible thing that happened. Pin it down. Toss out things like "Caylee could have pulled off that tape on her own." If I'm on the jury, I don't want to hear that kind of talk.
He also mentioned something about Caylee being drugged or sedated? Again, please don't talk to me about that unless you've got evidence to prove it. State... please do not speculate during the trial. Put her away with the evidence gathered, and do not tell speculative stories to get it done.

If I were on a jury I would need to know this or be reminded of this, because it is valid, Caylee was unable to free herself from the tape for some reason, what could that reason have been? She was either held down or drugged or knock unconcious. Why?

The jury needs to visualize this.

 

[floridamom]

Could someone please tell me (or direct me to a link) what Kathy was talking about when she was shooting those questions at AL? Something about comments she had made and would it hurt Casey? I missed the entire hearing and I'm trying to catch up! Thanks in advance!

 

[LambChop]

Refreshing post Caps. Everyone who was ever convicted of a crime was someone's child. Having compassion for what this family is going through in no way takes away from wanting justice for Caylee. On many levels my heart hurts for them. I know they never, in their wildest imagination, ever throught anything like this would happen to their grandaughter nor ever throught it would happen at their own daughter's hand.

And to think this all could have been avoided had KC just told the truth. Reminds me way back when CA's first reaction that Caylee was missing was to say to KC "What did you do?" I think today that question was answered for CA.

 

[Phumi]

Ashton said KC was presumed innocent. I believe he said these were questions a jury might have in their heads. Can't blame the man for telling it like it is.

 

[JWG]

I was utterly shocked to hear that Caylee could have ripped off the duct tape, so this means that she would have had to have been restrained in some manner. I guess this lays out the prosecution's case.

I believe it was in the recently released deposition of George he was asked about Caylee's manual dexterity, and in particular he was asked whether or not she could pull velcro apart.

 

[wenwe4]

Could someone please tell me (or direct me to a link) what Kathy was talking about when she was shooting those questions at AL? Something about comments she had made and would it hurt Casey? I missed the entire hearing and I'm trying to catch up! Thanks in advance!

happened during the after hearing with reporters talking to JB outside of the courthouse where he got peeved and stomped off (just like CA, GA, and other stomping off during the trial. Bet KC was wishing she could stomp off too!)

 

[Leila]

On the CNN live feed before KC came in JB asked AY if Cindy had tissue and then something else about tissue I couldn't understand. AY said, "Yes, she has it and I have it right here" or something to that effect. I think the whole cry i unison was staged...KC recovered so quickly...lol

I haven't read this whole thread yet and am just jumping in here. I didn't get up early enough to watch the hearing, but I've been watching the video clips of the hearing.

My first impression of Casey crying is that it was staged. There was no actual tears running down her face, no real blowing of her nose. She was dabbing at her face with a tissue but no real evidence of crying.

I'm betting that one of her attorneys - AL probably, told Casey she has to exhibit some emotion in the courtroom, and instructed her that when the attorneys addressed the issue about her family visits she needed to cry a little.

When Ashton described how Caylee might have died, there was again, no real tears. It's all a matter of Casey appearing to be emotional, but just acting the part.

 

[Harmony 2]

Somebody put it there. It could have been before her last breath or after. Or even both.... one strip on before death, the other two after death.

The point is who on the prosecution side knows? The doc dumps don't answer these questions. The State is charging KC with M1 and being the person who put the tape. But getting into fine line distinctions of the exact moment and disposition of the tape strips is speculative.

IMO, if you don't know for sure based on the physical evidence then skip that part of the narration or say something else that you can fully support.

Hi Hotdog!
Maybe chloroform residue was found on the duct tape (Q62-Q64) or Winnie the Pooh blanket and has not been released yet because it is still at the FBI being retested and reevaluated for some reason.

 

[Phumi]

I think the defense might have neglected to turn off their mikes "accidentally on purpose", too!

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Somebody put it there. It could have been before her last breath or after. Or even both.... one strip on before death, the other two after death.

The point is who on the prosecution side knows? The doc dumps don't answer these questions. The State is charging KC with M1 and being the person who put the tape. But getting into fine line distinctions of the exact moment and disposition of the tape strips is speculative.

IMO, if you don't know for sure based on the physical evidence then skip that part of the narration or say something else that you can fully support.

His use of that narrative today was excellent considering they were arguing the application of the DP. He said the jurors would believe that at the end of the trial and they would be deciding if it warranted the death penalty. It was not a time to give evidence, it was the time to let the people know why they were asking for the DP and why that option should be allowed.

 

[Mendara]

Have the text messages between TL and KC been released yet from June15th - July 15th?

TYIA

 

[Hot Dogs]

If I were on a jury I would need to know this or be reminded of this, because it is valid, Caylee was unable to free herself from the tape for some reason, what could that reason have been? She was either held down or drugged or knock unconcious. Why?

The jury needs to visualize this.

I will give you an example of how that little 2-year old would have been unable to remove the tape yet be fully unrestrained.

The first piece goes over the mouth/cheeks/ears/hair and is pressed firmly. Caylee is fully unrestrained (arms free to do anything) at that moment. She is unable to remove this single piece of tape without ripping out great quantities of her own hair. She can't even do it if she wants to because the hundreds of hair roots prevent themselves from being ripped out. No, she is going to be totally helpless to remove that duct tape on her own. And that is only the first piece.

That's one example but there would be others - such as necessary strength/leverage that the girl just doesn't have - or pain from the pulling which makes her instantly stop trying to get it off. It really hurts to pull off a piece of heavy duty duct tape from your skin, let alone your face.

 

[LambChop]

Somebody put it there. It could have been before her last breath or after. Or even both.... one strip on before death, the other two after death.

The point is who on the prosecution side knows? The doc dumps don't answer these questions. The State is charging KC with M1 and being the person who put the tape. But getting into fine line distinctions of the exact moment and disposition of the tape strips is speculative.

IMO, if you don't know for sure based on the physical evidence then skip that part of the narration or say something else that you can fully support.

Since they can't speculate I would think they know something we do not. At least JA sounds like they may know exactly how it happened. I just don't think anyone would put duct tape on a child for any other reason then to kill them. There is no other possible reason to do so....not three layers. Three layers speaks to me of someone who in a fit of rage decided to shut this child up forever. A stranger would just kill the child and would not take the time to tape up her mouth.

 

[harleysnana]

Yes, my question is hypothetical and is rather specific. It assumes that everything is the same right up until this court appearance. I welcome all responses, but in all honesty, ones like "she wouldn't be there" etc. are ignoring the hypothetical I present.

The question assumes everything is the same... except that the charge of murder one is incorrect. A different charge(s) might be correct, but M1 is incorrect.

Here is the question again.


If KC is being wrongly accused of premeditated murder (and she would know this) what would be her expected reactions and emotions while on camera in this courtroom situation? Would it be entirely different than what we saw?

This is hard to answer because I don’t think she is being wrongly accused.

I also wanted to answer when you first posted your question.
I personally think that they way she acted today points more towards her
guilt and the reason I think it does is because IMO IF Kasey was innocent…
she should have been crying like this the INSTANT she realized Caylee was missing!

When you add all the facts together… waiting 31 days, getting pissed on her
first phone call home, etc etc… and yet she holds out until today to break
down when hearing what probably happened to Caylee…

It was making her sick to hear it because IMO she was re living the whole
thing in her head as he said it and she knows he is right!

This crying today is to little to late for an innocent person. IMO

She makes me sick!

 

[Mendara]

I will give you an example of how that little 2-year old would have been unable to remove the tape yet be fully unrestrained.

The first piece goes over the mouth/cheeks/ears/hair and is pressed firmly. Caylee is fully unrestrained (arms free to do anything) at that moment. She is unable to remove this single piece of tape without ripping out great quantities of her own hair. She can't even do it if she wants to because the hundreds of hair roots prevent themselves from being ripped out. No, she is going to be totally helpless to remove that duct tape on her own. And that is only the first piece.

That's one example but there would be others - such as necessary strength/leverage that the girl just doesn't have - or pain from the pulling which makes her instantly stop trying to get it off. It really hurts to pull off a piece of heavy duty duct tape from your skin, let alone your face.

poor caylee..that sounds awful...poor little baby. - your scenario is just as bad - doesn't matter and the jury will not need specifics - just know that duct tape over a baby's mouth is sick and abusive and horrible, then add two more pieces and you are just evil.

 

[wenwe4]

I will give you an example of how that little 2-year old would have been unable to remove the tape yet be fully unrestrained.

The first piece goes over the mouth/cheeks/ears/hair and is pressed firmly. Caylee is fully unrestrained (arms free to do anything) at that moment. She is unable to remove this single piece of tape without ripping out great quantities of her own hair. She can't even do it if she wants to because the hundreds of hair roots prevent themselves from being ripped out. No, she is going to be totally helpless to remove that duct tape on her own. And that is only the first piece.

That's one example but there would be others - such as necessary strength/leverage that the girl just doesn't have - or pain from the pulling which makes her instantly stop trying to get it off. It really hurts to pull off a piece of heavy duty duct tape from your skin, let alone your face.

Hotdogs, now you are being speculative (which I actually think is ok here on ws), anyway - I am here to tell you that I work with children and I have seen small children headbutt the floor or wall until their head is bleeding if they are angry/dysregulated enough. Duct tape over your airways is enough!

 

[2goldfish]

I will give you an example of how that little 2-year old would have been unable to remove the tape yet be fully unrestrained.

The first piece goes over the mouth/cheeks/ears/hair and is pressed firmly. Caylee is fully unrestrained (arms free to do anything) at that moment. She is unable to remove this single piece of tape without ripping out great quantities of her own hair. She can't even do it if she wants to because the hundreds of hair roots prevent themselves from being ripped out. No, she is going to be totally helpless to remove that duct tape on her own. And that is only the first piece.

That's one example but there would be others - such as necessary strength/leverage that the girl just doesn't have - or pain from the pulling which makes her instantly stop trying to get it off. It really hurts to pull off a piece of heavy duty duct tape from your skin, let alone your face.

I guess....but I just cant believe that any toddler or anyone else for that matter would worry about their hair being pulled if they cant BREATHE.

BREATHE TRUMPS EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.


now if someone pedantic like my 15 year old would like to say but a newborn, blah blah, yes, true, I accept that, but we're talking a toddler. WHO COULD NOT BREATHE. I bet even if she couldnt tug off velcro, well, who knows what the human body can do when they CAN. NOT. BREATHE.

this is why I pray for chloro evidence. I cant take back the fact that caylee was murdered no matter what, but for her sake, I hope she never saw it coming and never felt a thing.

 

[BostonSu]

I
That's one example but there would be others - such as necessary strength/leverage that the girl just doesn't have - or pain from the pulling which makes her instantly stop trying to get it off. It really hurts to pull off a piece of heavy duty duct tape from your skin, let alone your face.

But restrained or not, some monster put that tape on Caylee, and that's much more important.