2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[ladonna]

What can we expect to happen next? Does Terri's attys respond or is this now in the judge's lap?

 

[mmmagique]

Because if it's not a joint asset or liability to Kaine, it's none of his business.

That's not necessarily true in a divorce situation. He does have the right to know where the money came from, and I believe eventually her attorneys are going to have to pony up and actually give an accounting of how much it is, and exactly where it came from. "Just 'cause I said so" is not a legal term.

 

[mmmagique]

What can we expect to happen next? Does Terri's attys respond or is this now in the judge's lap?

Good question! You may get a quicker and more thorough answer if you ask this in the "ask a lawyer thread".

 

[tlcya]

I am not a lawyer so I'll wait for a lawyer to weigh in but I got the impression in reading this motion that Atty. Rackner was pointing out a deficiency/error in Bunch's motion. Anyone else reading it that way? What I am referring to is paragraphs 1 and 2. Almost as though she is trying to clear up a mistake in his motion about what the law provides?

I hope Gitana comes on!

IANAL but I agree with your assesment. Atty Rackner has, in this motion, pointed out that Terri's counsel is trying to have their cake and eat it too by circumventing the normal procedures in a divorce/custody matter.

IMO it is a well crafted motion that cites the appropriate statutes to back Rackner's argument as to why it should not be allowed to happen.

IMO Bunch will respond by seizing Rackner's satement that this is a very unusual circumstance to try and argue for WHY he should be allowed to step outside the usual and normal course of a divorce/custody matter.

I feel badly for the judge who will have to wrangle with these issues.

 

[tlcya]

and also IMOO, and without weighing in on whether I believe Terri was or was not involved in Kyron's disappearance -

I do find it ridiculous that Bunch expects Kaine to shoulder any finacial responsibility for costs involved if any supervised visitation is allowed. Even if Terri has done nothing in the Kyron matter, the circumstances she finds herself in ARE NOT Kaine's fault and to ask for him to shoulder this burden IMO shows a complete lack of empathy or tact on her and her counsel's part.

 

[stmarysmead]

IANAL but I agree with your assesment. Atty Rackner has, in this motion, pointed out that Terri's counsel is trying to have their cake and eat it too by circumventing the normal procedures in a divorce/custody matter.

IMO it is a well crafted motion that cites the appropriate statutes to back Rackner's argument as to why it should not be allowed to happen.

IMO Bunch will respond by seizing Rackner's satement that this is a very unusual circumstance to try and argue for WHY he should be allowed to step outside the usual and normal course of a divorce/custody matter.

I feel badly for the judge who will have to wrangle with these issues.

BBM...the "unusual" circumstance issue cuts both ways however. Kaine's attorney might agree and say it is exactly those unusual circumstances of murder-for-hire plots and disappearing children that DEMAND extraordinary care be taken as to Baby K's physical and mental health.

Terri is not your usual cheating divorcee.

Terri's "Gimmee...Gimmeee...Gimmeee...I want... what I want... what I want!" defense goes to the very state of mind that could well be capable of finding a husband or child who impedes her wishes...mortally expendable:supreme over-riding self-involvement. She feels ABOVE the usual precautions; she feels "entitled" to money and special conditions. Just as she may have felt "entitled" to end the lives of people and children who disappointed her.To allow her to reappear in Baby K's life without any type of mental evaluation is absurd.

As to the $350,000...I can imagine many "sickening ways" she might have come by that sum of money. If any of these sickening things concern Kyron or Baby K...count me on the side of those who believe justice for Kyron or any child involved trumps her right to financial "privacy." To say it is not Kaine's "business" when we do NOT know what Terri's... "business"... was...may well protect and coddle a woman who has sunk to acts of extraordinary cruelty. That's not an even trade.

If she has nothing to hide...then it is nothing but the most arrogant stubborn pride that prevents her from clearing this issue. She knows her husband is in mourning yet...she adds this to his burden. Another revealing personality trait!

She is already suspected of crimes that involve extraordinary calculation and coldness. How long did she plan to make Little Kyron disappear...how many hugs and smiling photos did she take while her mind sorted through how she would do it...and when? This was no accident. Terri lived this many times in her mind if she did this...fantasizing what little Kyron would endure.

So now the Court is to give her Baby K? With no pre-conditions , no tests, no testimony?

One just ROLLS the dice and crosses our fingers because those Facebook pictures were so, so nice...she must be so nice...and that's all anyone needs?

In my opinion.... NO.

Baby K is no one's test case, or afternoon pastime. She is Kaine's only surviving child (most likely)

And, like any child , she is precious and absolutely irreplaceable.

For once, Terri Horman's "needs" should NOT trump all.

 

[grandmaj]

I don't know I think the Judge in this case may see that Terri is trying to circumvent the process, is not being cooperative, and join this motion with the other divorce matters. No child should be placed without the proper evaluations. Especially given the circumstances here.

Bunch's motion to abate and his arguments on that motion might just come back to bite him in this motion.

A judge can't act in a total vacuum. If I were a gambling woman I'd guess the Judge refuses to act on Terri's terms. MOO.

 

[believe09]

That's not necessarily true in a divorce situation. He does have the right to know where the money came from, and I believe eventually her attorneys are going to have to pony up and actually give an accounting of how much it is, and exactly where it came from. "Just 'cause I said so" is not a legal term.

mmagique, you are absolutely correct. Each party in a divorce has to give a sworn detailed statement regarding assets and liabilities, and it has to be signed by both the individual and the attorney under penalty of perjury.

 

[citigirl]

I just read on the lawyer thread that one of the lawyers feels the judge will not ask for a psych eval unless Oregon statute requires it. He thinks it is probably not required because Kaine's lawyer didn't mention such a statute.

I think it is fine not to require it in all cases, but if ever there were a reason to require one, it is in this case, where the mother's attorney has revealed that the mother is a (de facto) suspect in a child kidnapping investigation and a murder-for-hire scheme.

If he does not require one, Oregon residents need to reconsider their family law statutes carefully...

 

[SmoothOperator]

Originally Posted by mountaintime View Post
Besides the legal maneuvering here...
imagine if your partner ,that you believed in your heart was involved with the disappearance and possible death of your little son, after months of showing no interest ( and having another relationship in the interim!) wanted time with your only remaining child...
I too would fight like a tiger to prevent it.
Whatever the legal right and wrong of it...I would fight.
JMO

Response below

And I sure as heck wouldn't keep, much less drive, the vehicle I knew was used to abduct and transport him.

This is apples and oranges... Kaine fighting parenting time... and... Kaine keeping and driving his truck that is implied to have been the transportation for his son's body??????

They do not relate nor have anything in common..

I do not believe that Kaine nor his actions should be NEGATIVELY questioned[as if he is somehow in the wrong for driving HIS TRUCK]...He is a victim, and if his truck was used to abduct and transport his son IT IS TERRI THAT DID THAT AS WELL...

 

[tlcya]

BBM...the "unusual" circumstance issue cuts both ways however. Kaine's attorney might agree and say it is exactly those unusual circumstances of murder-for-hire plots and disappearing children that DEMAND extraordinary care be taken as to Baby K's physical and mental health.

Terri is not your usual cheating divorcee.

Terri's "Gimmee...Gimmeee...Gimmeee...I want... what I want... what I want!" defense goes to the very state of mind that could well be capable of finding a husband or child who impedes her wishes...mortally expendable:supreme over-riding self-involvement. She feels ABOVE the usual precautions; she feels "entitled" to money and special conditions. Just as she may have felt "entitled" to end the lives of people and children who disappointed her.To allow her to reappear in Baby K's life without any type of mental evaluation is absurd.

As to the $350,000...I can imagine many "sickening ways" she might have come by that sum of money. If any of these sickening things concern Kyron or Baby K...count me on the side of those who believe justice for Kyron or any child involved trumps her right to financial "privacy." To say it is not Kaine's "business" when we do NOT know what Terri's... "business"... was...may well protect and coddle a woman who has sunk to acts of extraordinary cruelty. That's not an even trade.

If she has nothing to hide...then it is nothing but the most arrogant stubborn pride that prevents her from clearing this issue. She knows her husband is in mourning yet...she adds this to his burden. Another revealing personality trait!

She is already suspected of crimes that involve extraordinary calculation and coldness. How long did she plan to make Little Kyron disappear...how many hugs and smiling photos did she take while her mind sorted through how she would do it...and when? This was no accident. Terri lived this many times in her mind if she did this...fantasizing what little Kyron would endure.

So now the Court is to give her Baby K? With no pre-conditions , no tests, no testimony?

One just ROLLS the dice and crosses our fingers because those Facebook pictures were so, so nice...she must be so nice...and that's all anyone needs?

In my opinion.... NO.

Baby K is no one's test case, or afternoon pastime. She is Kaine's only surviving child (most likely)

And, like any child , she is precious and absolutely irreplaceable.

For once, Terri Horman's "needs" should NOT trump all.

As to the BBM portion of your post. I am pretty sure all I was covering in my post was the motion and what I feel Bunch's response to it will be based on what I have seen of his work so far. At least that was my intention with my post.

Not sure exactly how that post of mine earned your vehement (bolded) response as I in no way said I was agreeing with Bunch, simply stated what I expect his response will be.

 

[stmarysmead]

As to the BBM portion of your post. I am pretty sure all I was covering in my post was the motion and what I feel Bunch's response to it will be based on what I have seen of his work so far. At least that was my intention with my post.

Not sure exactly how that post of mine earned your vehement (bolded) response as I in no way said I was agreeing with Bunch, simply stated what I expect his response will be.

Oh dear...no vehemence at your post at all. It just inspired my line of thinking. I quite agreed with your post. Sometimes a line or a few words gets me thinking...that's all.

 

[tlcya]

okay, whew, here I thought I had inadvertently given the impression I was arguing for or against and I had tried so hard to stick just with the thread topic of the motion, lol. I don't want to fight or set anyone off, just want Kyron found, like everyone else.

I totally see what you are saying tho as I do that as well. Someone's post will set my wheels spinning and off I go

No harm no foul.

 

[stmarysmead]

Response below



This is apples and oranges... Kaine fighting parenting time... and... Kaine keeping and driving his truck that is implied to have been the transportation for his son's body??????

They do not relate nor have anything in common..

I do not believe that Kaine nor his actions NEGATIVELY questioned[as if he is somehow in the wrong for driving HIS TRUCK]...He is a victim, and if his truck was used to abduct and transport his son IT IS TERRI THAT DID THAT AS WELL...

Victims of crimes often do not have the financial resources to replace their cars...or any other material object connected to the crime. Maybe when he is driving the truck, his emotions are REALLY invoked by thinking of what Kyron endured...and then he remembers that Terri pulled $350,000 out of a hat to pay for her attorney!!

Imagine how that feels! He can't even replace the truck...and she has $350,000 at her disposal!!!

And.... then is also hitting HIM up to pay her other expenses. No chance to get another truck and relieve his grief when Terri has him in that bind!

 

[stmarysmead]

okay, whew, here I thought I had inadvertently given the impression I was arguing for or against and I had tried so hard to stick just with the thread topic of the motion, lol. I don't want to fight or set anyone off, just want Kyron found, like everyone else.

I totally see what you are saying tho as I do that as well. Someone's post will set my wheels spinning and off I go

No harm no foul.

Your post was excellent! I should have made note of that.

I do get emotional thinking of Baby K...and the issues before the court.

 

[tlcya]

I feel for baby K as her entire world, home, routine, etc have been torn asunder. But I am also glad that she is so young as youngsters, IME, tend to adjust to change well IF they are immediately gotten back into a routine that can help them to adjust.

This case has so many of us so emotional. I hope wherever little Kyron is he knows how greatly he has affected so many and how very loved he he was, not just by family and friends, but by those of us who only came to know him after this nightmare began.

 

[Calliope]

Response below



This is apples and oranges... Kaine fighting parenting time... and... Kaine keeping and driving his truck that is implied to have been the transportation for his son's body??????

They do not relate nor have anything in common..

I do not believe that Kaine nor his actions NEGATIVELY questioned[as if he is somehow in the wrong for driving HIS TRUCK]...He is a victim, and if his truck was used to abduct and transport his son IT IS TERRI THAT DID THAT AS WELL...

???

I have never said Kaine is not a victim in this case; I was responding to what that person said they'd do under these circumstances. And my question about the truck has been stated repeatedly here, by more than a few people. So the point is, just because someone isn't acting how we would (or rather, how we think we would) doesn't necessarily make it *wrong* or indicate their involvement in Kyron's disappearance.

I've had a sinking feeling about this case from the start. Especially when I saw the immediate terrain around the school and what the searchers were cutting through looking for this child, and then the videos of the roads in the area. It just seems so remote and wild. I can't imagine what the locals must be feeling and how vulnerable they must feel. It's the sort of place I'd love to live --- I much prefer that sort of setting than something like a barren savanna *smiles* --- and now their idyllic little community has been shattered. It just goes to show how one person can ruin so many lives.

I understand that Kaine is going to fight against any and every motion Bunch puts forward. I just wonder what the actual reasoning is behind all this. Is it typical wrangling we'd see in any contentious divorce, or is Kaine hoping to stall these motions long enough to allow LE to get their ducks in a row? Wasn't it said the case would be wrapped up by January (something like that). I thought it interesting that it seems to coincide with the civil action.

 

[ThoughtFox]

And I sure as heck wouldn't keep, much less drive, the vehicle I knew was used to abduct and transport him

Let's get real - if Kaine had dumped or sold the truck right after Kyron disappeared, everyone would have seen it as suspicious behavior. Everyone's red flags would have gone up, and Kaine would have been accused of all manner of things - although he had nothing to do with the disappearance of his son.

It would remind many people of the rental car used and discarded by the parents in the Madelaine McCann case. He would be accused of destroying or tampering with evidence, just as the Anthony family was slammed for cleaning out the car that supposedly transported Caylee.

Especially since that is his personal truck, even though TH had full access to it not only that day Kyron disappeared but the day before. It doesnt make much sense to me, but people would have cried foul if Kaine had done anything with the truck.

ETA: So I don't blame him for continuing to drive his own vehicle. I'm sure it has already been searched with a fine-tooth comb anyway. He's not guilty, so why not?

 

[gitana1]

I'm not a lawyer but my impression is that it's just typical lawyer jousting for small advantages. Kinda like requesting the other party pay all legal fees in that it's not really based on the specific facts of the case but more of a boilerplate request that is routinely thrown into every motion.

Well, things have changed since the RO request. It has been 3.5 months since Th has seen the baby. As I stated, TH prejudiced herself by not requesting parenting time right away. What she's doing now she could have done then. But now, the passage of time works against her. KH wants to do discovery to determine what her status is now, etc. He is entitled to a statutory period to respond and he probably needs it because if 3.5 months had passed between the last hearing on the same issue in a case, I would definitely need to prepare again. Things change, arguments change, etc. I agree there's some legal maneuvering going on here, nothing sinister, just trying to get all the time available to them.

Seems to me that if Kaine and his lawyer are using the alledged MFH plot plus the belief that Terri kidnapped and harmed Kyron as evidence that Terri cannot see her daughter, then doesn't a judge require some proof that these allegations are true? Or will the judge just take their word for it? That doesn't quite seem fair to me.

And if there is such strong evidence that she did these things, then why has she not been charged for it already? Oh, yeah, right..... there is no evidence! If there had been, the GJ would have indicted her already, if only on the MFH plot and waited for more evidence that she kidnapped Kyron and did whatever she did with/to him. They've got nothing.
JMO, of course, laced with a little common sense. I could be wrong, of course. These legal maneuverings are beyond my comprehension sometimes.

Would you think it's fair to say that if LE has probable cause (one standard of proof), but perhaps not enough to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (another, much harder standard of proof), that LE might delay an arrest even if they have some evidence already? Or do you believe that there is no way LE is taking time building their case and going through evidence? Do you think if arrests do not happen within a few weeks or so after a crime, that there is no evidence? If an arrest happens months, even years after a crime, do you think that means there never was any evidence until the arrest? I'm trying to understand your perspective because it is shared by many.

I'm nodding my head reading your post. The terms 'unimaginable harm' must be some type of legalese I'm not familiar with, as it seems vague and undefined. I'll ask in the attorney's thread.

Not legalese. It's not vague and undefinable either, IMO. Just means he thinks TH probably killed Kyron or left him for dead, or sold him. Some type of unimaginable horror. Maybe it's just that we're so jaded here none of it is unimaginable to us. I'm sure the possibility of his wife harming the boy she raised was unimaginable to KH though.

The order that Kaine received was not a temporary restraining order. As such, at the ex parte hearing, he had to provide proof that Terri was an imminent danger to him and their joint child. When the judge signed the order, it was effective for a year. Terri had 30 days to try and get that order dismissed, but it was
not a standard TRO where an order is granted until a mandatory hearing where both sides present evidence. This is laid out in the document that stipulates what Terri's rights and responsibilities were in contesting the RO. I'll see if I can fish that one up. Jmo

Perfectly stated.

Because if it's not a joint asset or liability to Kaine, it's none of his business.

Legally, what you are saying is not true. I explained in very great detail on another thread why this is not true. I think you were there. If anyone would like, I'll dig up the long explanation and paste it in this thread but someone has stated the jist of it here already, I think. Basically, if one party is requesting fees or support or payment by the other of anything on their behalf, then that other party is entitled to extensive information about the first party's financial status including the source and amount of any attorney's fees payments, or any payments made on that person's behalf. As some have stated already, it's essentially so they can argue that, "Hey, my wife has a person who gifted her a large sum. They can or may give her more and it's her decision what to use those funds for but her access to those funds should mitigate any payment on my part." This argument may or may not be successful, depending on where the funds came from and the amount and if any restrictions were placed on them, etc., but each party is entitled to info so they can make such an argument. So yes, even if it's not a joint asset or liability, it is Kaine's business.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Oh my I know plenty about a contentious divorce... My ex drug it out absolutely as long as possible[his only revenge he could grasp onto desperately to make me pay for leaving him]...over 4 miserable years.. and thus far I don't see this divorce as such, rather only a desperate father looking to find answers that his stb-ex will NOT willingly just simply answer... I feel his frustration and my heart aches for his wanting badly to get the closure needed for his only son's death...

**and of course ensuring the safety of his only living child..babyk!!!!**