2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[SmoothOperator]

Well, things have changed since the RO request. It has been 3.5 months since Th has seen the baby. As I stated, TH prejudiced herself by not requesting parenting time right away. What she's doing now she could have done then. But now, the passage of time works against her. KH wants to do discovery to determine what her status is now, etc. He is entitled to a statutory period to respond and he probably needs it because if 3.5 months had passed between the last hearing on the same issue in a case, I would definitely need to prepare again. Things change, arguments change, etc. I agree there's some legal maneuvering going on here, nothing sinister, just trying to get all the time available to them.



Would you think it's fair to say that if LE has probable cause (one standard of proof), but perhaps not enough to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (another, much harder standard of proof), that LE might delay an arrest even if they have some evidence already? Do you believe that there is no way LE is taking time building their case? Do you think if arrests do not happen within a few weeks or so after a crime, that there is no evidence? If an arrest happens months, even years after a crime, do you think that means there never was any evidence until the arrest?



Not legalese. It's not vague and undefinable either, IMO. Just means he thinks TH probably killed Kyron or left him fro dead, or sold him. Some type of unimaginable horror. Maybe it's just that we're so jaded here none if it is unimaginable to us. I'm sure the possibility of his wife harming the boy she raised was unimaginable to KH though.



Perfectly stated.



Legally, what you are saying is not true. I explained in very great detail on another thread why this is not true. I think you were there. If anyone would like, I'll dig up the long explanation and paste it in this thread but someone has stated the jist of it here already, I think. Basically, if one party is requesting fees or support or payment by the other of anything on their behalf, then that other party is entitled to extensive information about the first party's financial status including the source and amount of any attorney's fees payments, or any payments made on that person's behalf. As some have stated already, it's essentially so they can argue that, "Hey, my wife has a person who gifted her a large sum. They can or may give her more and it's her decision what to use those funds for but her access to those funds should mitigate any payment on my part." This argument may or may not be successful, depending on where the funds came from and the amount and if any restrictions were placed on them, etc., but each party is entitled to info so they can make such an argument. So yes, even if it's not a joint asset or liability, it is Kaine's business.

Thanks again, gitana! You have once again made things crystal clear... Your knowledge and experience have been a huge help in this Kyron forum...

Just want to say Thanks!!!!

{for some reason it wouldn't give a lil' blue "thanks" button at the bottom of your post..so had to type a personal..Thank you! }

 

[pufnstuf]

A lot of answers can be found in the FAPA Bench Guide, which judges consult in FAPA cases. It's currently linked on the State of Oregon FAPA page.

For example:

Parenting Time (See also section IV.A.10.
and IV.B., below.)

a. Once a custody award is made, the
court must set a parenting time
schedule, unless the court finds that
parenting time is not in the best interests
of the child or children.

1) The fact that domestic violence has
occurred in the family may go to the
issue of the best interests of the
child or children.

2) The court is not limited to a
"traditional" visitation schedule.

If the court awards parenting time to a
parent who committed abuse, the court
must include adequate provisions in its
order to protect and provide for the
safety of petitioner and the child or
children. The protections under ORS
107.718(6) include, but are not limited
to, requiring one or more of the
following:

1) the exchange of the child or
children take place at a particular
location;

2) the parenting time be supervised;

3) the perpetrator of the abuse attend
and complete a program of
intervention for perpetrators of
domestic violence or other
counseling program the court
deems appropriate;

4) the perpetrator of the abuse not
possess or consume alcohol or
controlled substances during the
parenting time and up to 24 hours
before;

5) the perpetrator of the abuse pay the
costs of supervision of the
parenting time and any other
conditions placed on him or her by
the court; and

6) no overnight parenting time occur.



http://courts.oregon.gov/OJD/docs/OSCA/cpsd/courtimprovement/familylaw/FAPA_Benchguide_4-24-06.pdf

 

[stmarysmead]

???

I have never said Kaine is not a victim in this case; I was responding to what that person said they'd do under these circumstances. And my question about the truck has been stated repeatedly here, by more than a few people. So the point is, just because someone isn't acting how we would (or rather, how we think we would) doesn't necessarily make it *wrong* or indicate their involvement in Kyron's disappearance.

I've had a sinking feeling about this case from the start. Especially when I saw the immediate terrain around the school and what the searchers were cutting through looking for this child, and then the videos of the roads in the area. It just seems so remote and wild. I can't imagine what the locals must be feeling and how vulnerable they must feel. It's the sort of place I'd love to live --- I much prefer that sort of setting than something like a barren savanna *smiles* --- and now their idyllic little community has been shattered. It just goes to show how one person can ruin so many lives.

I understand that Kaine is going to fight against any and every motion Bunch puts forward. I just wonder what the actual reasoning is behind all this. Is it typical wrangling we'd see in any contentious divorce, or is Kaine hoping to stall these motions long enough to allow LE to get their ducks in a row? Wasn't it said the case would be wrapped up by January (something like that). I thought it interesting that it seems to coincide with the civil action.

I don't think anything is "typical" to Kaine Horman at this point. I can't imagine the totality of betrayal he feels.

Here is a man whose little boy goes missing at school. At school! Where most of us presume our children to be safe. And then while he is trying to cope with this, LE calls him in to tell him that his WIFE most likely is behind this and...oh, yeah...she was trying to hire the Landscaper to kill you. Just four days later, that wife is sexting an old acquaintance of his from school.

It was not the neighbor down the street who came to him and told him his wife was trying to have him killed..it was the professionals investigating this case!! And the person they pointed at...was the one he most needed for comfort and solace in his grief and worry..his wife!

Yes, his wife...the woman he shielded in his arms in that first press conference...the woman I believe he was defending against Internet and media gossip.

To assume that the locals have had THEIR lives ruined...one must assume that Terri is innocent..and the professionals who have ALL THE EVIDENCE in this case are wrong. There is no basis to think LE is incorrect in suspecting Terri. The only information we have is Facebook pictures and media. If they tell Kaine differently...till I have reason to think differently...I will trust THAT.

And trusting THAT, Kaine is probably only concerned , not with "wrangling" but safeguarding the only child he still has,...Baby K. These are crimes of stealth, calculation, deception and cruelty. Teri offers NOTHING to rebut LE...but expects to be taken only at her word.

Why should Kaine have to risk his only surviving child if Terri offers no reason to doubt what LE believes? What colossal arrogance on Terri's behalf!

I doubt Kaine is thinking of much more than how to safeguard his child from the "mother" he has been advised by LE....was coldly able to dispose of another small child of his that loved her.

 

[stmarysmead]

Well, things have changed since the RO request. It has been 3.5 months since Th has seen the baby. As I stated, TH prejudiced herself by not requesting parenting time right away. What she's doing now she could have done then. But now, the passage of time works against her. KH wants to do discovery to determine what her status is now, etc. He is entitled to a statutory period to respond and he probably needs it because if 3.5 months had passed between the last hearing on the same issue in a case, I would definitely need to prepare again. Things change, arguments change, etc. I agree there's some legal maneuvering going on here, nothing sinister, just trying to get all the time available to them.



Would you think it's fair to say that if LE has probable cause (one standard of proof), but perhaps not enough to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (another, much harder standard of proof), that LE might delay an arrest even if they have some evidence already? Do you believe that there is no way LE is taking time building their case? Do you think if arrests do not happen within a few weeks or so after a crime, that there is no evidence? If an arrest happens months, even years after a crime, do you think that means there never was any evidence until the arrest?



Not legalese. It's not vague and undefinable either, IMO. Just means he thinks TH probably killed Kyron or left him fro dead, or sold him. Some type of unimaginable horror. Maybe it's just that we're so jaded here none if it is unimaginable to us. I'm sure the possibility of his wife harming the boy she raised was unimaginable to KH though.



Perfectly stated.



Legally, what you are saying is not true. I explained in very great detail on another thread why this is not true. I think you were there. If anyone would like, I'll dig up the long explanation and paste it in this thread but someone has stated the jist of it here already, I think. Basically, if one party is requesting fees or support or payment by the other of anything on their behalf, then that other party is entitled to extensive information about the first party's financial status including the source and amount of any attorney's fees payments, or any payments made on that person's behalf. As some have stated already, it's essentially so they can argue that, "Hey, my wife has a person who gifted her a large sum. They can or may give her more and it's her decision what to use those funds for but her access to those funds should mitigate any payment on my part." This argument may or may not be successful, depending on where the funds came from and the amount and if any restrictions were placed on them, etc., but each party is entitled to info so they can make such an argument. So yes, even if it's not a joint asset or liability, it is Kaine's business.

Thank you so very very much!

 

[pufnstuf]

What can we expect to happen next? Does Terri's attys respond or is this now in the judge's lap?

The FAPA court will schedule a hearing. I don't know what the time frame is for that hearing as required by Oregon law... I've not found anything that states that the hearing must be held within a required amount of time.

 

[gitana1]

What can we expect to happen next? Does Terri's attys respond or is this now in the judge's lap?

TH's attorneys should have an opportunity to respond but since she is requesting an expedited hearing it may not be until the day of the hearing, if at all.

 

[pufnstuf]

And I sure as heck wouldn't keep, much less drive, the vehicle I knew was used to abduct and transport him.

Once divorce is filed, an automatic restraining order is triggered which prevents either party from selling or transferring items like vehicles.

So it appears that, no matter his personal feelings, Kaine is abiding by the law.

 

[cluciano63]

This is kind of OT but I read about a case in NY a while back where a vehicle was retained by police for almost two years...while a criminal case was being investigated. That is why I was surprised that the truck was returned so quickly, maybe in Oregon they have no choice? And the people (in NY) had to keep making payments on it the whole time.

In any event, this family court issue is very depressing to me as I have no confidence at all that it will do anything to move the case of Kyron's whereabouts forward in the slightest. I'm sure Kaine will be relieved to be well clear of Terri officially and all that...but it is very sad that the only "news" in this case refers to the civil case. I think most of us know very well that Terri and her attorneys do not plan to make any grand revelation as to what happened to Kyron in this forum, or any other, if they know.

Without charges filed, I do not personally have an issue if TH is allowed to see her baby under strictest of supervision as I am not of the opinion that she can or will tackle the guards and make off with the baby. But it won't bother me if she can't see her either. I don't feel it is any of my business and am confident the judge will do his best to do the right thing.

I wish my confidence extended to believing that LE will be able to prove a case against the persons(s) who committed whatever acts have been committed against Kyron. I wish even more that I was confident that he will ever be found.

 

[believe09]

I just read on the lawyer thread that one of the lawyers feels the judge will not ask for a psych eval unless Oregon statute requires it. He thinks it is probably not required because Kaine's lawyer didn't mention such a statute.

I think it is fine not to require it in all cases, but if ever there were a reason to require one, it is in this case, where the mother's attorney has revealed that the mother is a (de facto) suspect in a child kidnapping investigation and a murder-for-hire scheme.

If he does not require one, Oregon residents need to reconsider their family law statutes carefully...

I think one should happen for both parties given the incredible strain they have both been under.

 

[believe09]

And I sure as heck wouldn't keep, much less drive, the vehicle I knew was used to abduct and transport him.

Gosh it would be nice if he had that luxury-as someone else pointed out, you cannot distribute assets while a divorce is going on...no selling nada.

 

[kappy50]

Once divorce is filed, an automatic restraining order is triggered which prevents either party from selling or transferring items like vehicles.

So it appears that, no matter his personal feelings, Kaine is abiding by the law.

huh...divorce..please the truck was being driven by....ask Free...she has seen him driving it.....Mr.Horman has been driving that truck since day 1 hour for all we know...gotta tell ya...If I thought remotely my son's last hours were in that truck which I think he does....I would be darned if I would whoop around Portland in it......sell...transfer...to me burn it....But Kaine is the crim da crim....God bless him...find Kyron...

 

[believe09]

BeanE, it makes me wonder if, back when KH originally filed the petition for the TRO, he assumed that LE would provide evidence to the court if need be. It was a filing done in a hurry (as TROs often are).

And then, LE makes it clear they are not going to be providing evidence of any sort in order to protect the ongoing investigation.

That makes perfect sense from the point of view of LE: they addressed the most acute need to protect KH and Baby K but they don't want to endanger the Kyron investigation in any way.

From KH's point of view, he's been, well, not completely hung out to dry but certainly left in a difficult position by LE. I'm sure he doesn't want to endanger the Kyron investigation either but the refusal of LE to provide any evidence for the suspicions they (LE) shared with him leaves him in an uncomfortable position.

And hence, an adjustment of language in successive filings.

I get your point, but see it as far simpler than this. He didnt have to provide proof then. She waived her right to contest it. He actually doesnt have to prove the allegations in the RO now either-they stand. She doesnt get a do-over for it, although I suppose he could drop it if he chose, but I doubt it is in his or BabyK's best interest to do so.

So Rackner states for him that TH isnt really entitled to an expedited hearing because Kaine has work to do to prove the court should continue to allow him to direct the parenting time of his remaining child, as well as to continue to make all decisions regarding her.

Given the statements of Kaine's beliefs and what LE has told him, she needs to be evaluated. So should he. JMVHO. Which will take time. And if she chooses not to be...well everyone's hands are tied because innocent until proven guilty is not sufficient cause to give parenting time to a person who decided it was in her best interests not to give any statements that were legally binding under any circumstances...even one that would cause her to be removed for at least a year from her biological child....given the fact that right now she looks like a perpetrator of domestic violence with a standing restraining order against her. On paper at least.

What a mess.

 

[SmoothOperator]

???

I have never said Kaine is not a victim in this case; I was responding to what that person said they'd do under these circumstances. And my question about the truck has been stated repeatedly here, by more than a few people. So the point is, just because someone isn't acting how we would (or rather, how we think we would) doesn't necessarily make it *wrong* or indicate their involvement in Kyron's disappearance.

I've had a sinking feeling about this case from the start. Especially when I saw the immediate terrain around the school and what the searchers were cutting through looking for this child, and then the videos of the roads in the area. It just seems so remote and wild. I can't imagine what the locals must be feeling and how vulnerable they must feel. It's the sort of place I'd love to live --- I much prefer that sort of setting than something like a barren savanna *smiles* --- and now their idyllic little community has been shattered. It just goes to show how one person can ruin so many lives.

I understand that Kaine is going to fight against any and every motion Bunch puts forward. I just wonder what the actual reasoning is behind all this. Is it typical wrangling we'd see in any contentious divorce, or is Kaine hoping to stall these motions long enough to allow LE to get their ducks in a row? Wasn't it said the case would be wrapped up by January (something like that). I thought it interesting that it seems to coincide with the civil action.

Above BBM...That barren savanna *smiles* must get awfully lonely... I too would opt to live in an idyllic *community* much like the one I do live in......

 

[kappy50]

Gosh it would be nice if he had that luxury-as someone else pointed out, you cannot distribute assets while a divorce is going on...no selling nada.

he had every opporunity to do that prior to the divorce or distributing the assets....sell prior to ..nope...still driving around the big ole truck...JMO

 

[pufnstuf]

huh...divorce..please the truck was being driven by....ask Free...she has seen him driving it.....Mr.Horman has been driving that truck since day 1 hour for all we know...gotta tell ya...If I thought remotely my son's last hours were in that truck which I think he does....I would be darned if I would whoop around Portland in it......sell...transfer...to me burn it....But Kaine is the crim da crim....God bless him...find Kyron...

I've spent a few minutes trying to decipher what it is you're saying. Kaine is "the crim da crim?" What is that?

 

[gwenabob]

Kaine has also been seen many times driving the Mustang. What is he supposed to do? He can't sell them until the divorce is final. He probably owes money on them. He is probably stretched to his last dime with legal bills. He is not wealthy. He can't just run out and buy a new car!

 

[pufnstuf]

he had every opporunity to do that prior to the divorce or distributing the assets....sell prior to ..nope...still driving around the big ole truck...JMO

When? When could he have legally sold the truck, exactly?

 

[kappy50]

I've spent a few minutes trying to decipher what it is you're saying. Kaine is "the crim da crim?" What is that?

icing on the cake!

 

[kappy50]

When? When could he have legally sold the truck, exactly?

day one...

 

[gwenabob]

On day one, nobody knew what happened to Kyron. Terri hadn't taken any lie detector tests yet. Nobody knew Kyron had possibly spent his last moments in the truck. By the time he found out, he was filing the RO and divorce papers. By then, he couldn't sell anything.