2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[ThoughtFox]

But hey. It's just my opinion, and I'm glad she doesn't play their game. Her daughter needs her out of jail. Kaine's lack of cooperation for parenting time for his daughter with her mother will eventually lead to K having a guardian ad litem assigned because Kaine is not looking out for her best interests. Terri hasn't been charged, and no evidence has been shown which would prove she's a bad mother. Just accusations from a disgruntled husband with an axe to grind. IMO. ]

That's an interesting prediction I've seen tossed around several times lately, but I think it's extremely unlikely.

I guess the theory is that if there is a third-party guardian, then that levels the playing field and Kaine and Terri become equally "bad" as parents. Oh boy, that's really good for this baby! Now she has no familiar caregiver, Mommy or Daddy.

But hey, it's okay because the court could then evaluate them equally and decide who is the lesser of two evils? :angel::furious:

Here's the problem with that: that little word "evaluate."

TH's attorneys say she will not go through with any evaluation, and I bet a million dollars that Kaine would do it in a split second to get his daughter back.

Therein lies the difference.

But none of this is going to happen because TH withdrew her request for visitation. She can negotiate all she wants with Kaine, but she's not going to get her way without giving something, and that means psychologists and evaluations, and she just won't do it.

I'm sure Kaine won't compromise either. He's a victim here too. LE is on his side--he's the father of a missing child and his soon-to-be-ex-wife is the only suspect.

 

[Chablis]

Terri's rights as a parent have been "de facto" severed with no cause, and a campaign to force her to testify against herself in an unrelated matter. Terri's parenting of K was never in question until it became a tool to use against her to force her into compromising her Fifth Amendment Rights to not incriminate herself in an active investigation.

The rape statement is not only unfair to Terri, but to all rape victims. It is not a comparison that represents what Terri is facing at all.

Everyone should care when someone's constitutional rights are on the line. EVERYONE should care. And she did consent to have herself evaluated and have that person testify to their findings.

It's in the motion to motion about the petition to motion about the affidavit.

I'm sure of that last part

Its as though some are acting like Kaine made up these MFH allegations, he didn't, cops came to him, and told him Terris plans. What parent in the world would just say, oh gee golly shucks, I will just forget that, and let her be around our child. But then, there is a missinglittle boy she was last seen with, I mean being the last around a missing child, if you are so innocent, and need to see your baby then you better not sit like a bump on a log and think you dont need to be evaluated to prove your fitness.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Its as though some are acting like Kaine made up these MFH allegations, he didn't, cops came to him, and told him Terris plans. What parent in the world would just say, oh gee golly shucks, I will just forget that, and let her be around our child. But then, there is a missinglittle boy she was last seen with, I mean being the last around a missing child, if you are so innocent, and need to see your baby then you better not sit like a bump on a log and think you dont need to be evaluated to prove your fitness.

Good post! Actions have consequences and this visitation issue is one of those consequences.

TH lived her life as though she could get away with anything, and she did - she fooled alot of people and I'm sure they feel stupid now. She broke more than one social contract with her texting, although I realize to a moral relativist her actions "didn't hurt anybody but herself."

The MFH plot is a possible crime, however, and can't just be brushed under the rug. Kaine didn't make it up, he had to be convinced of it before he took action. Clearly the police took it seriously and thought Baby K was in danger. And not knowing what TH is actually capable of doing is a problem, not just for Kaine, but her TH herself.

Karma bites.

 

[Trt]

A guardian ad litem is appointed once divorce cases get to the custody phase anyway, IIRC...its standard in Oregon. I'm not sure what it means for this since the divorce dissolution agreement cannot supersede the RO, but according to Oregon law, she'd be appointed one anyway. JMO

 

[Trt]

That same withdrawal states in fact that Terri does NOT agree with no visitation, and in fact reiterates that the best interests of her daughter are her foremost concern, but she is being forced to choose to protect her Fifth Amendment Rights and the Oregon Constitution (sec 12, I believe) and so "reluctantly" withdrew.

I'm sure Kaine will not compromise.

Yes, her lawyers did assert that (in the same filing that they stated that Kaine's lawyer had done something illegal and sanctionable, which we know is false). Her withdrawal of the request for modification of the RO and stated knowledge that Kaine will not work with her and her attorneys to resolve this outside of court belies the previous assertion.

JMO

 

[Trt]

Everyone should care when someone's constitutional rights are on the line. EVERYONE should care. And she did consent to have herself evaluated and have that person testify to their findings.

It's in the motion to motion about the petition to motion about the affidavit.

I'm sure of that last part

respectfully snipped by me...

BBM...I have looked at every filing from Terri's lawyers to date and cannot find where they stated that she consented to have herself evaluated and that person would testify to their findings. Can you direct me to the appropriate filing and paragraph number? The best I could find was the petition for the RO modification (para. 7) where her lawyer states that an expert would be willing to testify that K needs to have contact with her mother and that there are safety measures that can be implemented that would ensure K's emotional and physical wellbeing.

TIA

 

[Trt]

Stating that Terri's daughter was taken away from her with no cause is like saying that the judge didn't do his job. I don't believe that the judge didn't do his job.

JMO

 

[nursebeeme]

Which makes a compromise and cooperation the much better answer.

I completely and utterly disagree.

 

[germaine]

Question. And I may need to put this in the lawyer Q&A thread. But what we refer to as Kaine's affidavit starts out "do hereby swear and depose". The word 'depose' leads me to call it a deposition. Is it different from a deposition? Or is it a deposition.


Or is it a deposition *and* an affidavit.

Hulu - Saturday Night Live: Shimmer Floor Wax

The webster definition of depose is :

to testify to under oath or by affidavit

The usual language in an affidavit is something like "I ___, of full age and having been duly sworn, upon my oath, depose and say blah, blah blah"

total anachronism, but it's still used.

What KH submitted is an affidavit.

In every day parlance, a deposition is when the witness is questioned by the opposing party (his own counsel and other parties can also ask questions) under oath before a court reporter and a transcription of the questions and answers are taken down in the form of a transcript.

Both are considered sworn testimony because both a court reporter for depositions, and a notary for affidavits, is authorized to administer an oath.

jmoo

 

[Trt]

I completely and utterly disagree.

I think Terri does too, since she was refusing to cooperate with any evaluations, etc. that could be required as a prerequisite to seeing her daughter. Compromise means give and take and I haven't seen what Terri was willing to *give* in order to be able to *take* visitation with her daughter.

JMO

 

[Adrienne37]

I think Terri does too, since she was refusing to cooperate with any evaluations, etc. that could be required as a prerequisite to seeing her daughter. Compromise means give and take and I haven't seen what Terri was willing to *give* in order to be able to *take* visitation with her daughter.

JMO

You nailed it on the head TRT. All Terri is interested in at this point is what she wants, nothing else matters to her except protecting herself. There shouldn't even be an argument regarding this issue because it was Terri's own attorneys who withdrew the request for visitation. I personally don't see the ongoing need for discussion on this subject. I'm sure Terri isn't sitting back worrying about what baby K is doing right now because if she were, she'd be fighting tooth and nail for any amount of time with her. I can't believe that people don't see this woman in the same light as Elisa Baker and Casey Anthony, both of who have little to no regard for any other person's feelings except their own. JMO.

 

[debs]

You nailed it on the head TRT. All Terri is interested in at this point is what she wants, nothing else matters to her except protecting herself. There shouldn't even be an argument regarding this issue because it was Terri's own attorneys who withdrew the request for visitation. I personally don't see the ongoing need for discussion on this subject. I'm sure Terri isn't sitting back worrying about what baby K is doing right now because if she were, she'd be fighting tooth and nail for any amount of time with her. I can't believe that people don't see this woman in the same light as Elisa Baker and Casey Anthony, both of who have little to no regard for any other person's feelings except their own. JMO.

I guess I don't see Terri having to protect her Constitutional Rights as wanting what she wants. I find it an untenable position for any American to be in, having to continue to be separated from her child or forced into a Fifth Amendment dilemma. Doesn't seem like anything anyone would WANT, at all.

It's all so easy for us in the cheap seats to say all she has to do is submit. That is simply blind to the truth that if she submits, it's one step closer to someone else having to do so as well. It doesn't say a word about her guilt or innocence. It's about protection under the law. LE can't use this as a way to gather information. That's the law. To say Terri should just suck it up and do it "if she wants her daughter back" refuses to take into account that being forced to choose doesn't mean she doesn't love her daughter. In fact, her latest motion states that she is concerned greatly for the short term and long term effects this all will have on her daughter.

But yeah. Terri should just submit to having her rights violated. That always works for people.

 

[Trt]

That's fine and good that Terri wants to protect her 5th Amendment rights...but then Kaine has a right and obligation to protect his daughter as well. He has chosen to believe LE (and whatever info they have provided him regarding his son's disappearance and the alleged MFH) and feels that he owes it to his daughter to protect her lest something happen to her as well. I think its possible to consider the unique position that both of these parents find themselves in and not blame one or the other for why Terri cannot see K right now.

IOW, if we can cut Terri slack for doing what she *has* to do to stay protected under the law, I'm sure we can afford Kaine the same slack.

JMO

 

[germaine]

I guess I don't see Terri having to protect her Constitutional Rights as wanting what she wants. I find it an untenable position for any American to be in, having to continue to be separated from her child or forced into a Fifth Amendment dilemma. Doesn't seem like anything anyone would WANT, at all.

It's all so easy for us in the cheap seats to say all she has to do is submit. That is simply blind to the truth that if she submits, it's one step closer to someone else having to do so as well. It doesn't say a word about her guilt or innocence. It's about protection under the law. LE can't use this as a way to gather information. That's the law. To say Terri should just suck it up and do it "if she wants her daughter back" refuses to take into account that being forced to choose doesn't mean she doesn't love her daughter. In fact, her latest motion states that she is concerned greatly for the short term and long term effects this all will have on her daughter.

But yeah. Terri should just submit to having her rights violated. That always works for people.

Her rights aren't being violated. There is a right to plead the 5th. There is no right that your decision to plead the 5th can't have adverse consequences to your ability to defend yourself in a civil case. That's just the way it is. Houze seems to recognize that, since he's doing whatever he can to prevent civil actions from going forward at this time, i.e., filing for an abatement and withdrawing the motion for visitation when it became clear to him that there would be discovery even to get supervised visitation, imo. In fact, the judge actively protected th's constitutional rights by ordering the abatement, even if just briefly.

 

[debs]

Her rights aren't being violated. There is a right to plead the 5th. There is no right that your decision to plead the 5th can't have adverse consequences to your ability to defend yourself in a civil case. That's just the way it is. Houze seems to recognize that, since he's doing whatever he can to prevent civil actions from going forward at this time, i.e., filing for an abatement and withdrawing the motion for visitation when it became clear to him that there would be discovery even to get supervised visitation, imo. In fact, the judge actively protected th's constitutional rights by ordering the abatement, even if just briefly.

Actually, my quote said "should just submit to having her rights violated." I didn't suggest they are right now; just that people believe she should submit to having them violated.

 

[Pensfan]

Actually, my quote said "should just submit to having her rights violated." I didn't suggest they are right now; just that people believe she should submit to having them violated.

Wise words that Terri should heed:

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
~Martin Luther King

(What matters is the disappearance of a helpless, 50 lbs, legally blind child; not Terri Horman's desires.)

 

[Trt]

Actually, my quote said "should just submit to having her rights violated." I didn't suggest they are right now; just that people believe she should submit to having them violated.

I don't believe she should submit to having her rights violated. Again, she can plead the fifth at any time. My recent questions have been about why she felt she couldn't answer to anything in Kaine's affidavit(which I think we all agree didn't contain any allegations of illegal activity) without compromising her 5th amendment rights not to incriminate herself.

JMO

 

[BeanE]

Wise words that Terri should heed:

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
~Martin Luther King

(What matters is the disappearance of a helpless, 50 lbs, legally blind child; not Terri Horman's desires.)

Kyron is legally blind? I never heard that before. Where did you get that info, Pensfan?

TIA

 

[BeanE]

I don't believe she should submit to having her rights violated. Again, she can plead the fifth at any time. My recent questions have been about why she felt she couldn't answer to anything in Kaine's affidavit(which I think we all agree didn't contain any allegations of illegal activity) without compromising her 5th amendment rights not to incriminate herself.

JMO

Because anything she said could be used against her.

 

[Pensfan]

Kyron is legally blind? I never heard that before. Where did you get that info, Pensfan?

TIA

This is found in one of the early news articles. One of Kyron's parents discussed Kyron's very severe visual impairment when he is not wearing his glasses.