2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[AlexisFresca]

In the photos of Terri shown on Dateline, there is one with her on our right, and Kyron on our left. She's looking into the camera and that look on her face and in her eyes gives me the heebie jeebies. I know that photos are a snapshot of a moment, but still!

My gut feeling is that she did "something" with Kyron.

The show also said that she failed 2 lie detector tests and walked out on a 3rd.

But I can totally understand how an innocent person can be manipulated into seeming guilty (thanks, poster whose name I don't recall).

Cazzie, I know exactly what you are talking about!! I saw it last night myself, when they showed some of her pictures - and it wasn't just the picture of her with Kyron. There were others with just her alone in the pictures and she had that 'look'. I am glad I was not the only one to 'see' it.

 

[BeanE]

Not gram, but I think she was referring to the affidavit that was signed by the attorney rather than by Terri, the way Kaine signed an affidavit (or declaration, I don't remember which it was.)

Yes, the way Rackner signed similar documents and not Kaine.

There was no unsigned affidavit from Terri with the motion document.

 

[grandmaj]

A motion she refused to sign? What leads you to believe Terri refused to sign the motion, or for that matter, that anyone wanted her to sign the motion?

If you'll notice, this motion of Kaine's, for example, is not signed by Kaine:
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/kaine+horman+court+1112.pdf


Nor this motion of Kaine's:
http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib...e7b948/SharpNews_koin.com_20101022_165135.pdf


Also, attorneys act on behalf of their clients. The actions they take, the things they write in motions, are taken by the court to be the client acting and stating. These attorneys are not acting independent of their clients. I see no reason here to believe they've gone rogue, and are acting without the knowledge and consent of their clients, for their clients, and as their clients.


Can you please clarify what you mean by Terri refusing to sign the motion, gram?


TIA

Terri refused to sign the affadavit. Kaine has signed under oath his affadavits.

I never said the attorneys were acting without knowledge of their clients. What they are doing is attempting to have her testify in any way including by not signing the affadavit.

Terri's attorneys have submitted everything under second party. Kaine Horman certfied his affadavit under his signature and oath.

Yes the motions are signed by the attorney.

What I ask is where is one, just one sworn under oath affadavit of Terri Horman stating that Kaine's allegations are wrong, that Kaine is not telling the truth, or that she wants to see her child spelling out the reasons she should?

 

[gwenabob]

Yes, the way Rackner signed similar documents and not Kaine.

There was no unsigned affidavit from Terri with the motion document.

Right. The point being Kaine signed an affidavit (or declaration) of facts as he knows them. Terri did no such thing. Instead, her lawyer signed an affidavit. Terri did not say anything at all in her name.

 

[debs]

A child has an absolute right to be with a safe parent. Kaine is not the person who is the focus of Kyron gone missing. He is not the focus of a criminal investigation in which a child is missing.

A safe parent has an absolute right to be with their child, at least for visitation. I don't know that I would consider Terri a safe parent at this point. How many children have to disappear? She could take the child and run. Wouldn't that be the final blow of vengeance to Kaine?

If Terri refuses to prove to the family court that she will not endanger baby K then how can the family court protect that child?

Terri is not the focus of a criminal investigation into robbing a bank or defrauding a store. She is not a suspect in bouncing checks or a pyramid scheme. She is the focus of an investigation into a child gone missing and attempting to hire a man to murder her husband. The child could be at great risk in my opinion.

A child has rights that are being violated. K is being kept from her mother. A mother in jail has the right to see her child. The child visits in a supervised setting. Terri's attorney stated Terri would agree to supervised visitation. Kaine then wanted her to submit to a psych eval before he'd even consider it, and without having to submit to one for himself. Sure, he's not the alleged crazy one, but just because HE says Terri is crazy doesn't make it so, and surely isn't the criteria one should use to believe someone should undergo psychiatric evaluation in order to prove something that someone says about them.

She isn't charged with a crime. She's accused of a lot of things. Yeah, she could come out and just state they are all lies, but at some point, you cannot shout down the loud voices who want to just say crap about you. She has to think of the real losses she could face. Yeah, it's obvious she could have thought about that sooner. But she HAS to think of it now. And that is she wants her daughter back all the way. Now she has to focus on longer term goals. That's what her attorney said, and that is what she will do.

 

[AlexisFresca]

Right. The point being Kaine signed an affidavit (or declaration) of facts as he knows them. Terri did no such thing. Instead, her lawyer signed an affidavit. Terri did not say anything at all in her name.

The only thing I recall as far as Terri's side has been the emails from her to friends that were released to the public, and Kaine's/Desiree's statements about how Terri told her friends she failed the polygraphs and so on. Everything made public regarding 'her side' come from sources other than her herself.

 

[JBean]

That's right. But we can't then cheer for violating Terri's rights in order to restore or vindicate the rights taken from Kyron. That serves no one's rights at all.

I concur debs. Terri's rights are my rights and I want them protected.
Moreover, if at the end of the day TH's rights are violated in an effort to bring her to justice;everything will have then been for naught.

 

[BeanE]

Terri refused to sign the affadavit. Kaine has signed under oath his affadavits.

I never said the attorneys were acting without knowledge of their clients. What they are doing is attempting to have her testify in any way including by not signing the affadavit.

Terri's attorneys have submitted everything under second party. Kaine Horman certfied his affadavit under his signature and oath.

Yes the motions are signed by the attorney.

What I ask is where is one, just one sworn under oath affadavit of Terri Horman stating that Kaine's allegations are wrong, that Kaine is not telling the truth, or that she wants to see her child spelling out the reasons she should?

What affidavit has Terri refused to sign? I think it's that she hasn't provided any first person affidavit, such as that provided by Kaine.

Her attorney, however, has provided affidavits on her behalf, unsigned by her, just as Kaine's attorney has provided affidavits on his behalf, unsigned by him.

My understanding is that those affidavits are just as if the client themself is speaking/stating/acting. So if the document says, as it does (paraphrased) that Terri cares about her child, then that is Terri saying she cares about her child, in the eyes of the court.

 

[grandmaj]

What affidavit has Terri refused to sign? I think it's that she hasn't provided any first person affidavit, such as that provided by Kaine.

Her attorney, however, has provided affidavits on her behalf, unsigned by her, just as Kaine's attorney has provided affidavits on his behalf, unsigned by him.

My understanding is that those affidavits are just as if the client themself is speaking/stating/acting. So if the document says, as it does (paraphrased) that Terri cares about her child, then that is Terri saying she cares about her child, in the eyes of the court.

Exactly instead her attorney made a declaration of facts. My point exactly. Terri has not signed anything under oath as being true and factual nor has she stated in any document signed under her hand that what the facts are. Why?

 

[gwenabob]

What affidavit has Terri refused to sign? I think it's that she hasn't provided any first person affidavit, such as that provided by Kaine.

Her attorney, however, has provided affidavits on her behalf, unsigned by her, just as Kaine's attorney has provided affidavits on his behalf, unsigned by him.

My understanding is that those affidavits are just as if the client themself is speaking/stating/acting. So if the document says, as it does (paraphrased) that Terri cares about her child, then that is Terri saying she cares about her child, in the eyes of the court.

Not so sure about that. If that were true, what is the point of plaintiffs EVER filing affidavits on their own behalf? Why not ALWAYS have their attorney file them instead?

I think the point is that an affidavit, sworn under oath, could be used in the future as a tool for impeachment. Kaine is not worried about that. Terri is.

 

[BeanE]

Right. The point being Kaine signed an affidavit (or declaration) of facts as he knows them. Terri did no such thing. Instead, her lawyer signed an affidavit. Terri did not say anything at all in her name.

Just as Kaine has said things via his attorney's affidavits that are unsigned by him.

Do we not take what comes from an attorney such as these documents (motions, affidavits, etc) as coming from the client themself? I know in hearings I'm always hearing in the courtroom where the defense and state say, e.g., "Miss Anthony contends that blah blah blah", and it is discussing what an attorney wrote in a motion or affidavit.

 

[BeanE]

Exactly instead her attorney made a declaration of facts. My point exactly. Terri has not signed anything under oath as being true and factual nor has she stated in any document signed under her hand that what the facts are. Why?

Okay, I think I'm understanding what you're saying now.

A good explanation of why is in the video called "Why Terri Horman Remains Silent" posted in the Today's News thread.

 

[BeanE]

Not so sure about that. If that were true, what is the point of plaintiffs EVER filing affidavits on their own behalf? Why not ALWAYS have their attorney file them instead?

I think the point is that an affidavit, sworn under oath, could be used in the future as a tool for impeachment. Kaine is not worried about that. Terri is.

Well, if they're not speaking/acting as the client, then what's the point of them making statements such as Rackner makes, like "Petitioner has received document of text messages from LE" (paraphrased)?

And if they're not acting on their client's behalf, then on whose behalf are they acting?

Maybe these are questions for the attorney Q&A thread. I don't want to tie up a discussion thread with technicalities, if it's not appropriate.

 

[BeanE]

I concur debs. Terri's rights are my rights and I want them protected.
Moreover, if at the end of the day TH's rights are violated in an effort to bring her to justice;everything will have then been for naught.

As we seem to be learning the hard way in Gabe's case.

 

[grandmaj]

A child has rights that are being violated. K is being kept from her mother. A mother in jail has the right to see her child. The child visits in a supervised setting. Terri's attorney stated Terri would agree to supervised visitation. Kaine then wanted her to submit to a psych eval before he'd even consider it, and without having to submit to one for himself. Sure, he's not the alleged crazy one, but just because HE says Terri is crazy doesn't make it so, and surely isn't the criteria one should use to believe someone should undergo psychiatric evaluation in order to prove something that someone says about them.

She isn't charged with a crime. She's accused of a lot of things. Yeah, she could come out and just state they are all lies, but at some point, you cannot shout down the loud voices who want to just say crap about you. She has to think of the real losses she could face. Yeah, it's obvious she could have thought about that sooner. But she HAS to think of it now. And that is she wants her daughter back all the way. Now she has to focus on longer term goals. That's what her attorney said, and that is what she will do.

BBM The the child's rights are not being violated. Kaine has a restraining order in place. Ordered by the Court! Terri chose not to fight the RO. That was her choice because she would not submit to the normal and ordinary procedures that all parents go through.

Not for a minute do I believe the child's rights are being violated when a court ordered RO is in place. The court must based on tried and true methods determine if the RO should be amended. They cannot do that in a vacuum.

Terri filed for visitation. Kaine asked the court for discovery to determine that Terri was not going to harm baby K. Exactly what would have been ordered by the court had she challenged the RO except that now since so much time has passed he also asked for doctor records and depositions from her friends. Who wouldn't in his position? I know I would be doing exactly the same thing is my other child was missing.

Terri's attorney tried to end run the ordinary testing and screening that would have been done in the whole divorce process. Terri though her attorney asked for the abatement not Kaine.

All she has to do it agree to the ordinary process to ensure she is a safe mother and the RO could be amended. She refuses. In fact my opinion is that she withdrew just before the hearing because there was a real possibility that that judge would have ordered a mental evaluation.

Baby K"s rights are being monitored by the court and ruled on by the court. Terri wants it to be different for her. It doesn't work that way.

I would never say that an RO ordered by the court is violating a child's right. The child cannot speak for herself. The right of the child is determined by the court to be exercised when the court is assured that no harm will come to the child.

 

[AlexisFresca]

I don't think anyone has alleged she gets drunk every night. I think the allegation was several nights a week. And an alcoholic doesn't get drunk with the first drink. It takes awhile. She might have started drinking at 8 pm, and got progressively tipsy as the evening wore on. Doesn't mean she was drunk all the time or every night.

Its been awhile since I read the list, but when someone goes through the checklist of whether or not their an alcoholic, aren't these some of the questions?

Do you drink to escape from worries or trouble?
Do you drink alone?
Do you drink to build up your self-confidence?
Does your drinking make you careless of your family’s welfare?
Do you turn to lower companions and an inferior environment when drinking?

- We know that Terri wasn't happy in her marriage
- We know she drank alone at night after everyone was in bed (note I'm not saying 'daily' here)
- We know Terri befriended people she deemed 'less attractive' than her (exhibit 1: DeDe)
- We know that Kaine and Kyron were doing laundry and that James was responsible for the yard work. Who else was doing what around the house, other than Terri?

Didn't Kaine say that he even approached her about her drinking at one point, and he didn't get a good reaction from her about it?

Some other questions I remember from past years:

Has your drinking ever prevented you from going to work?
Have you ever faced legal ramifications for your drinking? (we know Terri has had other alcohol offenses other than her DUI with a minor child, J, in the car with her).
Have you refused invitations because you'd rather spend that time drinking?

 

[grandmaj]

Okay, I think I'm understanding what you're saying now.

A good explanation of why is in the video called "Why Terri Horman Remains Silent" posted in the Today's News thread.

But BeanE that is a defense attorney view about the criminal matter.

Terri is in a pickle. Ya know I don't even believe at times that Terri did anything but hand Kyron off and got herself caught up in a horrible mess. Do I believe Terri acted in a sane and normal way? NO But from what I have seen, Terri just wanted to hurt Kaine and it backfired. God I hope Kyron is hidden away somewhere with people that just thought they were doing the right thing.

But the possible criminal case is affecting the family court matters and without Terri's help that is not going to end. Keeping your mouth shut for the criminal case I get that. I actually agree with that.

But there is nothing that guarantees Terri's rights to not participate with assurances to the court that K is going to be safe in the family matters. The only way to do that is to participate. Or to wait it out. If she doesn't want to participate she needs to wait to see her child is my opinion.

I don't want to open the forum one day and see that Terri got visitation and baby K disappeared while with her. That would be a tragedy. And right now I believe that Terri is capable of doing that. Whatever happened she has not acted rationally.

 

[BeanE]

Have you ever faced legal ramifications for your drinking? (we know Terri has had other alcohol offenses other than her DUI with a minor child, J, in the car with her).

I don't know that Terri has had other alcohol offenses other than that one. I've never seen that reported.

Could we have a link for that info please?

TIA

 

[grandmaj]

Talking of pictures...the "Child Seek Network" has a collage of approx. 60 pictures. I have looked at these over and over again. If you go to their website, view pictures # 32,33,34,35...they appear to be Easter morning. Now got to #'s36,37,38,39...appears to be the night before where KH and Kyron are doing Easter eggs. Jammies are the same in all pictures. So if they are doing Easter eggs at night, and Terri's so drunk she can't stay up, who then took the pictures. Maybe she has a steady hand with a camera and drunk...dunno..However, it appears they were recent so I assume this past Easter and J..was out of the house by then...I thought them interesting as are some others...

I think Kaine stated that it happened 2 or 3 nights a week. I don't recall him stating that Terri was drunk every night or constantly drunk.

 

[AlexisFresca]

I don't know that Terri has had other alcohol offenses other than that one. I've never seen that reported.

Could we have a link for that info please?

TIA

Honestly, I don't remember where it was that I read that, just that someone who had access to a criminal data base ran her name and found some stuff. One of those databases you have to pay to use. They link into WhitePages.