2010.07.19 Defense is Investigating George

[Woe.be.gone]

This is the one emotion in the grieving process that is most often hidden, because we culturally are taught from an early age not to express anger.
I think GA is angry and has no way to act it out properly, especially with cameras on him. Like many in the process of grief, he knows how to maintain some sense of self-control and push the anger down for self-preservation if nothing else.
The anger comes out in spurts later, when KC is home, as TraceyM told us about.
So, as you wrote above, he is faking, or sort of flatlining his emotions. I don't think he is void of them, I think he is hiding them-To what end is a different question-To protect KC or his own sanity, or CA-dunno.
He hid them with police, too-He came to the brink of anger when he really started thinking about what he knew to be true, but then used his reflexive technique-Jibber-jabbering-to make the feeling stop.

I understand your point but with GA it goes beyond what to me seems within the normal range of hiding sadness and managing to function. I don't see him as being flat as much as I notice he's almost effervescent under the circumstances. For instance, when KC appeared behind the glass to visit her mom and dad while in jail she exclaimed 'hi, how are you?' in that oh so happy kinda voice. GA uses the same type of affect in his speech. When he got into LE's car within a month of finding out his granddaughter was missing (two months really) and he said CHEERFULLY 'hi guys, blah blah blah'. His behavior just seems 'off' much like KC's does much of the time. There's really not an explanation for it imo. He is what he is but something seems amiss. :twocents:

Actually we've seen GA loose his temper and have heard stories about his violent outbursts. I'm sure he works hard not to loose it with the cops but he leans over too far as in too buddy buddy - I just can't put my finger on it but his behavior is weird much of the time.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I think CA's excited utterance shows she had only just found out. JMO

When I first heard CA's last 911 call, that's what I thought too. Now I don't know what she may have know before 'the last day'. Remember KC said to CA "just give me one more day". When I think about it it sounds like CA had already given KC thirty-one days and KC wanted one more. Because of the smelly car CA could not grant KC any more days.

Remember when GA and CA found the car, CA texted KC, 'we have a big problem'.
It's stuff like that that gets me wondering. Also I can no longer imagine how CA could have possibly stayed out of KC's business (about who the nanny supposedly was and especially KC having Caylee out of CA's house for over a month sight unseen) for any amount of time let alone a month.

There's got to be more to it imo.

 

[TorisMom003]

I think her time is coming. I've always thought that when push comes to shove, Casey could easily claim that on the evening of June 15, 2008 she and her mother had a terrible fight and her mother got physical and hit her. She would state that she became frightened and left the house, leaving Caylee behind............and that's the last time she ever saw her daughter.

This will never fly with a jury (IMO). What kind of mother would leave her helpless 2 year old daughter in the care of a woman that hit her? That would prove that Casey had no thought or concern for Caylee's safety. Casey is up sh@t creek without a paddle. No matter what kind of excuse she or her defense team may come up with there is no getting around the fact that in every possible scenerio Casey comes out looking like a horrible mother. If they claim that Casey left Caylee with George after a fight, she looks bad. If they claim that Casey left Caylee with Cindy after a fight, she looks bad. If they claim that someone kidnapped Caylee while in Casey's care, she looks bad. Nope, Casey is the only one that will end up looking like the selfish horrible mother that she is.

MOO

 

[txsvicki]

I understand your point but with GA it goes beyond what to me seems within the normal range of hiding sadness and managing to function. I don't see him as being flat as much as I notice he's almost effervescent under the circumstances. For instance, when KC appeared behind the glass to visit her mom and dad while in jail she exclaimed 'hi, how are you?' in that oh so happy kinda voice. GA uses the same type of affect in his speech. When he got into LE's car within a month of finding out his granddaughter was missing (two months really) and he said CHEERFULLY 'hi guys, blah blah blah'. His behavior just seems 'off' much like KC's does much of the time. There's really not an explanation for it imo. He is what he is but something seems amiss. :twocents:

Actually we've seen GA loose his temper and have heard stories about his violent outbursts. I'm sure he works hard not to loose it with the cops but he leans over too far as in too buddy buddy - I just can't put my finger on it but his behavior is weird much of the time.

I agree, but think his behavior is very dramatic and manipulative, and he's just too much of a nervous wreck to pull it off very well. Many of his conversations end up being about him and probably every one I've heard has him casting some sort of blame on Cindy for HIS behavior. Either he's made a lifetime of doing that, or found out real early on that Cindy was being blamed and they decided to use that. I don't believe either one knew Caylee was gone before smelling the vehicle and realizing that Casey wouldn't say where she was. It must have been horrific to get that car and realize that smell was of a dead body, then have to try and get info out of that person they call a daughter.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Originally Posted by Leila
I think her time is coming. I've always thought that when push comes to shove, Casey could easily claim that on the evening of June 15, 2008 she and her mother had a terrible fight and her mother got physical and hit her. She would state that she became frightened and left the house, leaving Caylee behind............and that's the last time she ever saw her daughter.

It wouldn't fit in with Caylee's decomposing body being in the pontiac that ICA had custody of..it all goes back to ICA. She was the last one with physical custody of Caylee. Caylee's body was placed in her trunk, my worry is the defense will cry chain of custody. Who's to say someone else didn't have a key to ICA's car or was using it. Still, they'd have to prove Caylee was with someone else, which she wasn't. The defense can try and spin this as they choose but those jurors will have to use common sense and I feel the SA's have their case planned out for what it is! Filicide! ICAs goose is cooked, IMO...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

 

[essies]

George is the last person, besides ICA, to see Caylee alive-that we know of. If the defense wants a juror to believe that ICA didn't harm Caylee then either they need to pin it on George or someone that is tangible before the Blockbuster video that same night. This is where JB better let the jury have that story that will make everything "make sense". The defense can try and knock at the forensics-call test samples "junk science", cast suspicion on RK, JG, or anyone else they choose, say that LE didn't do their job or spin any other tale or sling all the mud they want-it won't matter to me and I'm sure a juror will feel the same way. Till ICA and her "dream" team can explain and can prove where ICA and Caylee were between the time George last saw them and ICA's visit with TL to Blockbuster-the suspicion is on ICA!! As JA said so chillingly in court-
“If we have gotten to this stage those same jurors have already decided that the face Caylee saw in those final moments of her life was her mother’s face.":furious:

 

[Just Jayla]

I understand your point but with GA it goes beyond what to me seems within the normal range of hiding sadness and managing to function. I don't see him as being flat as much as I notice he's almost effervescent under the circumstances. For instance, when KC appeared behind the glass to visit her mom and dad while in jail she exclaimed 'hi, how are you?' in that oh so happy kinda voice. GA uses the same type of affect in his speech. When he got into LE's car within a month of finding out his granddaughter was missing (two months really) and he said CHEERFULLY 'hi guys, blah blah blah'. His behavior just seems 'off' much like KC's does much of the time. There's really not an explanation for it imo. He is what he is but something seems amiss. :twocents:

Actually we've seen GA loose his temper and have heard stories about his violent outbursts. I'm sure he works hard not to loose it with the cops but he leans over too far as in too buddy buddy - I just can't put my finger on it but his behavior is weird much of the time.

No, I think you are making the same point, just more accurately! Some sort of emotion is there, but he has implemented a weird mechanism of converting anger to elation.
I'm sorry if this seems mean, but I think it relates a bit to him not being the sharpest tool in the shed-IMO, people that have mature/advanced intellect can self-realize, and GA is missing this, maybe because his true nature is to be somewhat of a brute, not so much a deep thinker.
He has embarrassed himself in the past with his caveman behavior (throwing pops through a window), and maybe through CA or his own understanding, has decided that he should replace the nasty feelings with happy thoughts....it is like his own version of anger management, but he does not seem to understand that in some cases, ANGER IS APPROPRIATE!

 

[Just Jayla]

George is the last person, besides ICA, to see Caylee alive-that we know of. If the defense wants a juror to believe that ICA didn't harm Caylee then either they need to pin it on George or someone that is tangible before the Blockbuster video that same night. This is where JB better let the jury have that story that will make everything "make sense". The defense can try and knock at the forensics-call test samples "junk science", cast suspicion on RK, JG, or anyone else they choose, say that LE didn't do their job or spin any other tale or sling all the mud they want-it won't matter to me and I'm sure a juror will feel the same way. Till ICA and her "dream" team can explain and can prove where ICA and Caylee were between the time George last saw them and ICA's visit with TL to Blockbuster-the suspicion is on ICA!! As JA said so chillingly in court-
“If we have gotten to this stage those same jurors have already decided that the face Caylee saw in those final moments of her life was her mother’s face.":furious:

Enter RickP, to tell the story of GA's outbursts in Ohio. The defense should have stuck with GA all along, even as far as using his "suicide attempt" against him. Good thoughts, essies.
Not saying it will work because there are real reasons to believe GA did not have anything to do with Caylee's death, but it could be their best shot.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I understand your point but with GA it goes beyond what to me seems within the normal range of hiding sadness and managing to function. I don't see him as being flat as much as I notice he's almost effervescent under the circumstances. For instance, when KC appeared behind the glass to visit her mom and dad while in jail she exclaimed 'hi, how are you?' in that oh so happy kinda voice. GA uses the same type of affect in his speech. When he got into LE's car within a month of finding out his granddaughter was missing (two months really) and he said CHEERFULLY 'hi guys, blah blah blah'. His behavior just seems 'off' much like KC's does much of the time. There's really not an explanation for it imo. He is what he is but something seems amiss. :twocents:

Actually we've seen GA loose his temper and have heard stories about his violent outbursts. I'm sure he works hard not to loose it with the cops but he leans over too far as in too buddy buddy - I just can't put my finger on it but his behavior is weird much of the time.

Don't ya see it in Lee too, Woe? It's cuz they don't have "selves". They have been molded and shaped and manipulated for so many years that they don't know how to act. They have no normal.. everything about them is an act, part of the "Cindy perfect family act".

IMO

 

[OneLostGrl]

No, I think you are making the same point, just more accurately! Some sort of emotion is there, but he has implemented a weird mechanism of converting anger to elation.
I'm sorry if this seems mean, but I think it relates a bit to him not being the sharpest tool in the shed-IMO, people that have mature/advanced intellect can self-realize, and GA is missing this, maybe because his true nature is to be somewhat of a brute, not so much a deep thinker.
He has embarrassed himself in the past with his caveman behavior (throwing pops through a window), and maybe through CA or his own understanding, has decided that he should replace the nasty feelings with happy thoughts....it is like his own version of anger management, but he does not seem to understand that in some cases, ANGER IS APPROPRIATE!

ita. Like when he was lying to LE that he used to walk the kids to school and back- that he was there for them after school.. cuz that's what parents do. He also said "they have to get jobs and earn their own things- that's how I was raised" but he clearly didn't do the same thing. The cops caught him in the lie about being there for the kids and said " idn't you work such and such time when they were that age" and he's like "oh yeah, Lee used to walk her home". Why did he feel the need to LIE about being there? Like he felt he was a bad parent if he wasn't there after school but how many of us aren't there after school for our kids?! It's part of life- we gotta work!

 

[OneLostGrl]

George is the last person, besides ICA, to see Caylee alive-that we know of. If the defense wants a juror to believe that ICA didn't harm Caylee then either they need to pin it on George or someone that is tangible before the Blockbuster video that same night. This is where JB better let the jury have that story that will make everything "make sense". The defense can try and knock at the forensics-call test samples "junk science", cast suspicion on RK, JG, or anyone else they choose, say that LE didn't do their job or spin any other tale or sling all the mud they want-it won't matter to me and I'm sure a juror will feel the same way. Till ICA and her "dream" team can explain and can prove where ICA and Caylee were between the time George last saw them and ICA's visit with TL to Blockbuster-the suspicion is on ICA!! As JA said so chillingly in court-
“If we have gotten to this stage those same jurors have already decided that the face Caylee saw in those final moments of her life was her mother’s face.":furious:

But we don't really know George is the last person to see Caylee alive. The actual person we know to have seen Caylee is Cindy.. on fathers day.

 

[Sun]

But we don't really know George is the last person to see Caylee alive. The actual person we know to have seen Caylee is Cindy.. on fathers day.

From Casey's own lips, she says she last saw Caylee on June 16. It was on one of the jail video visitation tapes that I heard these words from her lips. Of course, if Casey's lips are moving, she's no doubt lying. :banghead:

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

But we don't really know George is the last person to see Caylee alive. The actual person we know to have seen Caylee is Cindy.. on fathers day.

From Casey's own lips, she says she last saw Caylee on June 16. It was on one of the jail video visitation tapes that I heard these words from her lips. Of course, if Casey's lips are moving, she's no doubt lying. :banghead:

Right. We know what Casey says and we know what George says. Neither of those two have any third party that that can verify their statements of when they were last with Caylee. Cindy was the last person that anyone who was uninvolved can state that it was true that Cindy was last seen with Caylee at GGM Shirley's house. All other claims cannot be verified, can they? Interesting?

Consider further that Casey and George both describe Caylee in the same clothes. They were not the clothes found with her remains. They were, however, the same clothes described by a family friend who said she saw Casey and Caylee shopping a few days before her disappearance. Was there some collaboration between Casey and George? Did they subconsciously copy this woman's description or overhear one another's statements to the police at the house?

I don't believe Casey; I don't believe George and I don't believe Cindy either. But at least it has been verified that Cindy was with Caylee at the nursing home and Shirley's house. (And was it only forgetfulness that caused Cindy to forget this? Even to make a huge error on the date?) Seems so, so strange to me.

 

[Leila]

It wouldn't fit in with Caylee's decomposing body being in the pontiac that ICA had custody of..it all goes back to ICA. She was the last one with physical custody of Caylee. Caylee's body was placed in her trunk, my worry is the defense will cry chain of custody. Who's to say someone else didn't have a key to ICA's car or was using it. Still, they'd have to prove Caylee was with someone else, which she wasn't. The defense can try and spin this as they choose but those jurors will have to use common sense and I feel the SA's have their case planned out for what it is! Filicide! ICAs goose is cooked, IMO...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

I agree that KC's goose is cooked, but what I was trying to illustrate is that KC and the defense team have no qualms about throwing anyone and everyone under the bus. They've cast suspicions on the innocents in this case - innocents that I would count as victims - Jesse, Amy, Tone, Ricardo, Roy Kronk, etc.

Casey has thrown her own father and brother under the bus with the suggestion that they molested her. Cindy will be thrown under the bus at some point, simply because Casey could care less about her mother and the defense must show reasonable doubt.

Casey could state that she left Caylee with Cindy the night of June 15th and never saw her again, and let the evidence prove her wrong. It would be another attempt at blaming someone else and providing reasonable doubt.

 

[Leila]

I have long wondered, ever since listening to the first phone calls Cindy made to police, she was getting angrier with Casey. In one she says something to the effect that if that's how Casey wants to play then she'll play that way, one way or the other she's going to find Caylee.

I wondered where that went while watching the jail visits. Either because there's a camera on her or she's already figured out what happened and she's just trying to make things look differently to the public that she knows will watch their visit later...or both. What happened to that angry grandma wanting to be taken to her granddaughter?! To me it seems she's trying to get Casey to play the lie game with her. As in "let's work together here for the camera and make this look differently than it appears to everyone." Casey didn't want to talk about it at all or play the game and that to me is really odd. She had an opportunity to lie some more and stretch, but she just quit or she didn't like the way Cindy was trying to lead the lying. Oh it makes my head hurt when I ponder it sometimes. :headache:

I've always felt that George was suspicious from the beginning. When he smelled the car, he knew someone was dead.

With Cindy, I've always felt that she knew on July 16, 2008, when she learned that Casey had been arrested for lying to police (along with child neglect and obstruction of justice). She knew then that Casey's story about the nanny kidnapping Caylee was a lie.

By Friday, July 18, 2008, Cindy was already busy defending Casey's lies. In their first interview conducted by one of the local media, Cindy did most of the talking with George at her side. She was already trying to explain away things she knew would eventually be made news in the case...........Casey borrowed a shovel to cut down weeds in the backyard so that Caylee wouldn't get stickers in her feet; how they always keep the shed locked and Casey didn't have a key; how they always take the ladder away from the pool after use......things like that.

Never once did Cindy make a plea to the nanny kidnapper to bring Caylee home. She knew there was no nanny. Within the next few days, Cindy was denying the car smelled like a dead body, claiming it was rotten pizza that made the car smell. I've never felt that Cindy was ever in denial. It was more a matter of covering up what her daughter did.

 

[Leila]

Right. We know what Casey says and we know what George says. Neither of those two have any third party that that can verify their statements of when they were last with Caylee. Cindy was the last person that anyone who was uninvolved can state that it was true that Cindy was last seen with Caylee at GGM Shirley's house. All other claims cannot be verified, can they? Interesting?

Consider further that Casey and George both describe Caylee in the same clothes. They were not the clothes found with her remains. They were, however, the same clothes described by a family friend who said she saw Casey and Caylee shopping a few days before her disappearance. Was there some collaboration between Casey and George? Did they subconsciously copy this woman's description or overhear one another's statements to the police at the house?

I don't believe Casey; I don't believe George and I don't believe Cindy either. But at least it has been verified that Cindy was with Caylee at the nursing home and Shirley's house. (And was it only forgetfulness that caused Cindy to forget this? Even to make a huge error on the date?) Seems so, so strange to me.

Caylee being with Cindy at the nursing home on June 15, 2008 is the only thing that can be proved. There's the date-stamped video of Caylee reading the book to great grandpa, the visitor sign-in sheet at the nursing home, and independent witnesses - nurses, who can verify that Cindy and Caylee were there.

After Cindy and Caylee left the nursing home, there's no verifiable independent witnesses. I do trust SP's statement that Cindy and Caylee had dinner at her home, but after that all we have are the statements of George, Cindy, and Casey.

 

[mitzi]

Don't ya see it in Lee too, Woe? It's cuz they don't have "selves". They have been molded and shaped and manipulated for so many years that they don't know how to act. They have no normal.. everything about them is an act, part of the "Cindy perfect family act".

IMO

Off topic:

OLG, I love reading your posts, because you are continually "spot on". You have really educated me while I have been here for this case. Thank you! :blowkiss:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Don't ya see it in Lee too, Woe? It's cuz they don't have "selves". They have been molded and shaped and manipulated for so many years that they don't know how to act. They have no normal.. everything about them is an act, part of the "Cindy perfect family act".

IMO

I do now. At first I didn't. I thought just because you're someone's sibling doesn't mean you're involved in their crimes or daily life once you are grown. I figured Lee had a full time job, was in his twenties, had a girlfriend, etc.

But after the high-five he gave KC and his performance at the memorial service where CA stood stroking his back, I thought he's :crazy: too. The other trait he has (Tracy M. has it too - unrelated I know) is that goofy laughing response to questions that aren't funny. That must be some kind of a coverup response one develops to stress or something.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

But we don't really know George is the last person to see Caylee alive. The actual person we know to have seen Caylee is Cindy.. on fathers day.

This is the one conflict (both GA and CA) that I can never clear outta my head. At first I never could have thought the grandparents would have anything to do with whatever happened to Caylee but after observing their behavior, hearing the peculiar one liners they have uttered and witnessing all of their lies as well as supporting KC's lies, I can't outrule the possibility that the whole family devised the script after whatever happened happened.

I'm in the minority I know - I guess I'm lacking common sense - but something's not kosher with these people. GA has his secret that he gave KC permission to reveal if she felt she must. CA saying she didn't want to loose her husband. Knowing CA's perfection at all costs status and how she thinks she's above the law. By the way, where is the second car seat? The one that was in CA's car? Or if the one in KC's car is the one that was in CA's car, then where is KC's? Little things like that that should have an easy answer but have never been answered. It's the little things that don't make sense (and the big ones like cleaning the car instead of calling the police right THEN and there) that don't add up if you ask me.

It's impossible for me to think that GA and CA would never do this or that after following/observing how they behave. I wouldn't put anything past them to think they can outwit or control whatever it is they are trying to as far as influencing the outcome they want to see happen. It's hard for me to fathom why people have such faith in them and believe their versions of how the days of June 15, 16 and 17 unfolded. I don't get it. Peeps believe they told the truth about those days but lie about everything else? I don't think so.

Maybe they are the types that would throw their own daughter under the bus and not the other way around. It's possible. I can't shake the feeling that one of them is guilty of something too.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Caylee being with Cindy at the nursing home on June 15, 2008 is the only thing that can be proved. There's the date-stamped video of Caylee reading the book to great grandpa, the visitor sign-in sheet at the nursing home, and independent witnesses - nurses, who can verify that Cindy and Caylee were there.

After Cindy and Caylee left the nursing home, there's no verifiable independent witnesses. I do trust SP's statement that Cindy and Caylee had dinner at her home, but after that all we have are the statements of George, Cindy, and Casey.

I've even found myself questioning this trip at times but then I remember there is evidence of CA going through tolls that match the time she says she made the trip.
Even the witnesses at the old peoples' home seemed sort of vague but it was longer than a month later - how convenient!

By the way, what were you, your child or your husband wearing a month ago? Let's see, that would be August 20 I guess.