2011.02.21 Autopsy; COD & TOD Discussion *Warning: Graphic*

[strach304]

I understand and agree with the emotions being expressed here-I think the DA has a better case with second degree if no COD can be determined because there is perhaps less of a chance she would get it overturned than if it were first degree. I mean look at how we feel here-imagine trying to find a jury of her peers who would not fry her based upon the dismemberment alone? JMO.

The point that resonates the most with me was the sleuther who pointed out that all of the cut marks were on the front side of her body.

That takes some stones, if you will forgive the phrase. I wonder how much self medicating EB had to do.

I respectfully disagree with the part of it being easier to convict on murder 2 without a cause of death. Laci Peterson and Caylee Anthony are the first two cases that jump right out at me that involve the DP no less.

No way would the jurors buy an accident or sickness as COD or there would be no need to have dismembered Zahra. We don't believe it, why would a jury? If it wasn't a murder to begin with why dismember the child? That is very strong evidence for the SA to use. He struck a deal to get Zahra's remains imo and that's why she isn't being charged as a murder 1.

 

[Dr. Know?]

With the cut marks on the bones, could that be an enraged Elisa stabbing at Zahra? Striking her with a knife that hard? Could stabbing cause those marks? There was a lot of blood in Zahra's room on the floor and blood splatters on the wall. I can't see why she'd move from one room dismembering her, then move to the bathroom (unless to hide it at times from AB). Sorry to be so blunt.

With parts of Zahra's remains missing it's very disturbing, especially the skull. She led them to parts of her, is she saying possibly Adam knows where the rest of her is and she doesn't know? Why not give up the rest of her remains?

I skipped two pages so if this has already been said, then nevermind...

 

[strach304]

With the cut marks on the bones, could that be an enraged Elisa stabbing at Zahra? Striking her with a knife that hard? Could stabbing cause those marks? There was a lot of blood in Zahra's room on the floor and blood splatters on the wall. I can't see why she'd move from one room dismembering her, then move to the bathroom (unless to hide it at times from AB). Sorry to be so blunt.

With parts of Zahra's remains missing it's very disturbing, especially the skull. She led them to parts of her, is she saying possibly Adam knows where the rest of her is and she doesn't know? Why not give up the rest of her remains?

I skipped two pages so if this has already been said, then nevermind...

The Dr. on NG suggested this last night. It's possible EB did tell them what was done with the rest of the remains but they can't be recovered.

 

[tlcya]

Dr. Know, many of us suspect the cut marks on the bones were postmortem and happened during the dismemberment. As to the blood spatter it is speculated that the spatter came either from the fatal attack or the dismemberment or both.

As to the blood/tissue found in the drains, that may have been from the dismemberment or the cleanup afterwords. I would imagine alot of mess would be involved in the killing and the dismemberment. Cleanup would involved a source of water and an area to wash up items and self. Even if the dismemberment ocurred in another area of the house, the drains would have to have come into play in the cleanup effort.

I suspect that the hands, the bone above medical amputation and the skull were dumped or secreted somewhere where EB (or helper if she had one) hoped they would never be found. Either because they would ID her (not an issue now) and/or because at least one of them would reveal evidence of exact COD (such as a massive blow to the head, etc.) To reveal that location at this point could only further harm EB in her future murder trial. So I do not think she has any reason to divulge that info and has every reason not to.

 

[panthera]

The Dr. on NG suggested this last night. It's possible EB did tell them what was done with the rest of the remains but they can't be recovered.

I would be surprised if EB told LE where all the remains were located. After all, isn't she trying to implicate AB in this horrendous event as well? In other words, isn't it possible she wants LE to believe the missing remains are what he disposed of? MOO

 

[matou]

I would be surprised if EB told LE where all the remains were located. After all, isn't she trying to implicate AB in this horrendous event as well? In other words, isn't it possible she wants LE to believe the missing remains are what he disposed of? MOO

I believe that in the letters to the serialkillers website, EB wrote that LE "knows where Zahra is" and that Zahra isn't missing. This is when she mentions about "what AB did."

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13433475

 

[matou]

Warning! Explicit post.

I have to wonder if EB burned Zahra up first. The head would have had hair and skin. EB either burned her or contained her head in something and buried it. The hair would have left a trail for dogs to pick up, I would think. Sorry, this thought just came to me now and seemed relevant.

 

[tlcya]

We should not forget the search area that was not Christy and not Dudley Shoals. The search where nothing was found. I believe it was on Indian Grave Road (rather a morbid location given the circumstances) Perhaps that is another dumpsite that was indicated by EB but no remains were located there? That does not mean they aren't there but rather than none could be found. I do not know.

My own suspecion is, she knows full well where they were dumped and won't reveal that now if she hasn't already.

 

[newone]

If I were EB and I was into all that devil type stuff, I would want to salvage the head as a trophy or as a gift/sale to another freaker devil worshiping type person. I wouldn't picture her throwing it away.

yikes! as in the recent gift of $10K from UK male to EB

 

[tlcya]

Again, the 10,000 gift has not been established or confirmed by LE. It was suggested in court by a family member of EB's and was not a lump sum buth rather multiple smaller cash gifts given over the course of about a year, per that family member. We have never heard one word from LE or any official about that. Th eonly person we have heard that from is the family member. My own believe is that it is a huge red herring in this case and I do not feel it is relevant to her autopsy.

 

[panthera]

Again, the 10,000 gift has not been established or confirmed by LE. It was suggested in court by a family member of EB's and was not a lump sum buth rather multiple smaller cash gifts given over the course of about a year, per that family member. We have never heard one word from LE or any official about that. Th eonly person we have heard that from is the family member. My own believe is that it is a huge red herring in this case and I do not feel it is relevant to her autopsy.

You are correct.

MOO

 

[bessie]

Okay, looks to me to be exactly the kinds of cut marks one would expect to find in a crude dismemberment. Notice how many of the cuts start on one side of the bone, and then move directly across from that cut to the other side of the bone? I would think this is the result of someone sawing back and forth at different angles. I'm not particularly adept at cutting tree trunks and this is exactly what my cut marks look like. Start sawing on one side, move to the other side and try to get the cut to meet in the middle. (Sorry guys)

Anyway, all the cut marks go across. I don't see any frenzied stabbing pattern. If a stabbing were the cause of death here, I would think the victim would be moving, thus even less chance that the cut marks would go in the same direction. Also, you stab downward. This would have to be a really wide blade to make such long cuts in a downward stabbing motion.

I'm not seeing that at all.

JMO

Thanks for your input, MK. Now that I've had more time to study the report (and I'm not so tired), I do agree with you. What I see in the diagram definitely look like cutting marks at the edges of the bones. And yes, on the anterior side of the Zahra's body. I have to read the NG transcript from last night to see why the expert was so certain about stabbing.

This, in my MOO, is what happened. I believe there was blunt force trauma to the head, and the weapon was Zahras prostetic leg. It just seems like something EB would do to add insult to injury. Also, wasnt the prostetic leg found not in its complete state? like it was taken apart before disposal, or it had FALLEN apart during IMPACT.

That idea has always stayed in my mind, too.

 

[JoeFromLB]

Poor Zahra...what a depraved act...despicable, heartwrenching to read of Zahra's dismemberment...CSI couldn't get all of Zahra, what a heartless, horrendous, depraved and indifferent individual...I am so angry..what possesses a human to act like a beast! One can't even call her an animal for animals only kill to survive...she is the devil in sheeps clothing...JMHO

Black heart and soul, this woman doesn't deserve to live...I wish the prosecution hadn't given this woman a deal. If ever a DP charge, this is it...I though Caylee's demise was horrendous but here comes the worst yet!..JMHO

Rest peacefully Zahra...

Justice for Zahra

She could also be roaming free in 15 years. That's a terrifying thought.

 

[strach304]

I would be surprised if EB told LE where all the remains were located. After all, isn't she trying to implicate AB in this horrendous event as well? In other words, isn't it possible she wants LE to believe the missing remains are what he disposed of? MOO

Yes, true but then again I doubt they would take EB's word so there would have to be some kind of proof. We know her cell phone pinged near the remains site on the 25th.

 

[panthera]

Yes, true but then again I doubt they would take EB's word so there would have to be some kind of proof. We know her cell phone pinged near the remains site on the 25th.

Correct. I was only referring to her attempt to implicate him, therefore not divulging the location of the missing remains.

 

[Flakes]

Dr. Know, many of us suspect the cut marks on the bones were postmortem and happened during the dismemberment. As to the blood spatter it is speculated that the spatter came either from the fatal attack or the dismemberment or both.

As to the blood/tissue found in the drains, that may have been from the dismemberment or the cleanup afterwords. I would imagine alot of mess would be involved in the killing and the dismemberment. Cleanup would involved a source of water and an area to wash up items and self. Even if the dismemberment ocurred in another area of the house, the drains would have to have come into play in the cleanup effort.

I suspect that the hands, the bone above medical amputation and the skull were dumped or secreted somewhere where EB (or helper if she had one) hoped they would never be found. Either because they would ID her (not an issue now) and/or because at least one of them would reveal evidence of exact COD (such as a massive blow to the head, etc.) To reveal that location at this point could only further harm EB in her future murder trial. So I do not think she has any reason to divulge that info and has every reason not to.

Please let me first convey a WARNING on this post. It is directed at anyone who knows about blood consistency in the body post-mortem.

The above post by tlcox made me think about just how much blood there would have been at the location where the dismemberment took place. I understand samples were taken from the carpet in the bedroom (though not a large area, so I presume there was little in that room ... perhaps consistent with, for instance, a blow to the head, or similar). And I also understand that the bathroom walls had been painted or covered with some kind of material that forensics peeled off to examine the under-wall.* So this probably indicates a greater amount of blood in the bathroom. Though that said, I still would have presumed an enormous amount of blood even if done post-mortem.

So I am wondering as minutes, hours and days pass, how much blood remains liquid in the body such that it would splatter during the "desecration" and dismemberment (chopped, stabbed, carved or whatever ghastly else)?

I was witness to a car accident where a pedestrian was hit by a van and a HUGE amount of blood was lost from his head (nose), which surrounded his body on the road. I thought he was going to die. I made the 000 (911) call, and waited until he was taken by ambulance. I was eager to find out how he was, so contacted a close friend who's a Mica Paramedic for an update. The news came back that he was fine, and without any issues. I was stunned. My friend explained that what appears to the public as a very large amount of blood is actually a very small amount in real terms. Blood just tends to spread and thicken very fast even from a living person, so it gives a false impression of quantity.

I guess we envisage a large amount of blood, but perhaps there was not much at all, depending on timeframe and the blood characteristics post-mortem?

[* my feeling is that the date this 'renovation' was done may be relevant to the investigation – esp. if it was done post 24th September. Also considering the possibility that EB may have hidden Zahra's body at another location for some days and then brought it back into the house to dismember at a "more convenient" date, then did the bathroom walls, so it may have been at a date post 24th-25th.]

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Please let me first convey a WARNING on this post. It is directed at anyone who knows about blood consistency in the body post-mortem.

The above post by tlcox made me think about just how much blood there would have been at the location where the dismemberment took place. I understand samples were taken from the carpet in the bedroom (though not a large area, so I presume there was little in that room ... perhaps consistent with, for instance, a blow to the head, or similar). And I also understand that the bathroom walls had been painted or covered with some kind of material that forensics peeled off to examine the under-wall.* So this probably indicates a greater amount of blood in the bathroom. Though that said, I still would have presumed an enormous amount of blood even if done post-mortem.

So I am wondering as minutes, hours and days pass, how much blood remains liquid in the body such that it would splatter during the "desecration" and dismemberment (chopped, stabbed, carved or whatever ghastly else)?

I was witness to a car accident where a pedestrian was hit by a van and a HUGE amount of blood was lost from his head (nose), which surrounded his body on the road. I thought he was going to die. I made the 000 (911) call, and waited until he was taken by ambulance. I was eager to find out how he was, so contacted a close friend who's a Mica Paramedic for an update. The news came back that he was fine, and without any issues. I was stunned. My friend explained that what appears to the public as a very large amount of blood is actually a very small amount in real terms. Blood just tends to spread and thicken very fast even from a living person, so it gives a false impression of quantity.

I guess we envisage a large amount of blood, but perhaps there was not much at all, depending on timeframe and the blood characteristics post-mortem?

[* my feeling is that the date this 'renovation' was done may be relevant to the investigation – esp. if it was done post 24th September. Also considering the possibility that EB may have hidden Zahra's body at another location for some days and then brought it back into the house to dismember at a "more convenient" date, then did the bathroom walls, so it may have been at a date post 24th-25th.]

BBM

According to the SW, no carpet was ever retrieved from the house. It does list carpet fibers being taken into evidence, and though the SW doesn't specifically state which room these fibers came from, my assumption is that they were recovered from the floor of Zahra's bedroom. If you look at the pictures and video taken from inside the house, you can clearly see that the bedroom floor is not a finished floor, but rather sub-flooring. I think there was carpet on her bedroom floor, and it was removed during the cleanup. LE was able to retrieve fibers from the carpet from the wood floor. If you look at the sections of the room LE cut out and took into evidence, it's quite easy to imagine that Zahra was struck in the head (blood pattern on wall) and fell to the floor (cut out section of floor). I think from there, she was placed on the mattress so that the perpetrator/s could assess the damage, see if it was "fixable". I think she laid there on the mattress for quite some time before the perpetrator/s figured out that Zahra was either dead, or in such a state that calling an ambulance was out of the question. I don't for one moment believe dismemberment occurred in the bedroom. I think she was laid out on the bathroom floor next to the tub and dismembered there. VERY hard to saw through bone with the side of the tub right where your arm needs to be to do that. Also, if you look at the cut mark patterns from the autopsy, you can clearly see that across the femur bone, the cut marks are on both sides of the bone. Impossible to do that if the body is lying in a tub, imo.

I think you make an excellent point about what we perceive to be alot of blood. If you spill a small glass of water on the floor from say a nightstand, that water goes everywhere. When you're cleaning it, it looks like ALOT of water because it's spread out over a large area. But if you could magically suck it all back into the glass, it would still only fill that small tumbler.

JMO (and a long rambling one at that!)

ETA: Prior to your post, I hadn't even considered how long the blood remains fluid post mortem. It's a great question. Wish I knew the answer to that.

 

[reasypeasy]

Again, the 10,000 gift has not been established or confirmed by LE. It was suggested in court by a family member of EB's and was not a lump sum buth rather multiple smaller cash gifts given over the course of about a year, per that family member. We have never heard one word from LE or any official about that. Th eonly person we have heard that from is the family member. My own believe is that it is a huge red herring in this case and I do not feel it is relevant to her autopsy.

The family member could very well be telling the truth as they know it, having been lied to about it by EB in the first place.

Dodgy types like her do it all the time, when they need to explain something that makes them look bad they lie.

Famously broke but got new furniture and don't want to tell family you are up to your old tricks of bouncing cheques again? Tell them someone gave you money but only to buy the furniture. Want a loan but have no way of paying it off? Tell them you've got a source of money that will pay off soon but not soon enough.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

Zahra Baker case might be complicated by lack of specific cause of death

Wednesday, February 23, 2011

By Gary L. Wright and Franco Ordoñez | The Charlotte Observer

Catawba County prosecutors may face a daunting task in trying to prove that Elisa Baker killed her stepdaughter without clear evidence to show how the 10-year-old girl died.

In an autopsy revealed Monday, the N.C. Medical Examiner's Office concluded that Zahra died as a result of "undetermined homicidal violence."

"I've never heard that term before," Steve Ward, a Mecklenburg prosecutor for 25 years, told the Observer. "It means the medical examiner is saying the victim was killed, but they have no idea how it happened."

More at:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/02/23/109253/zahra-baker-case-might-be-complicated.html

 

[tlcya]

Flakes, I have responded to your post regarding blood spatter and portmortem blood quantity on the COD TOD thread as it seemed the more appropriate venue.

Don't want to make the mods work any harder than they post keeping us on topic.