2011.04.08 Frye Hearing Summary Thread

[Softail]

JB - Clorloform Hysteria came from these e-mails. Pre-trial publicity

 

[Chiquita71]

JB: this non chemist, non scientist is inserting his findings. chloroform, hysteria unfolded. led to an incredible pre trial talk that created a theory that the victim in this case was overdosed with chloroform. Dr. Vass 's reports uses method that can only be described as a crude method.

he says we have a peak and although we cannot tell you what else was there, it was higher. he states he tried to get a standard to measure but he failed.

JB is now telling the judge what a standard is.

 

[Chiquita71]

JB: Dr. Vass "its the largest sample I have seen in twenty years." We know he has tested at the body farm, but he is not a chemist. he wants to give scientific levels of a chemical compound. he does have a chemist that works with him...dr. weis...
HH: mr. baez, just a minute...

(silence)

 

[wenwe4]

Jb saying this non-chemist/non-scientist . . . . . . . led to incredible amt of pretrial publicity saying the victim was overcome by chloroform. He used quantitative analysis instead of qualitative . . . the method could only be described as a crude method . . . .the peak was higher . . . he attempted to get a standard to measure that amt but that failed . . . get a scientific measurement of how much chloroform there is . . . it's the largest peak I have seen in 20 yrs, he does air samples from bodies and body farm, testified to various other examinations he conducted but he is not a chemist and wants to give scientific levels of a compound. He does have a chemist that works with him . . .
HHBP - just a second - I want to bring up Westlaw for a second

 

[LaLaw2000]

It is just amazing to me how little ICA is affected by this whole proceeding. Talk about decomposition and chloroform doesn't phase her. She is so detached.

JMO

 

[Chiquita71]

Jose was saying that in the email exchanges between vass and vincent it is evident they were privy to the investigation. JB referenced in the emails how they spoke of where cindy worked.

JB: ....
JA: objection, have they submitted those?
HH: this is argument. it is quicker folks.

JB: he stated this was a quantitative element and he couldn't get a reasonable sample "gassing".

CM: asked for something
HH: brief recess while court reporter takes care of something.

(cowpolk, cowpoke...? what is that word?)

 

[Chiquita71]

HH: any such animal as a independent witness.
JB: cyber case was dr. logans lab. interesting. the defense is mistaken with error rate. the defense likes to throw around error rate like it is the number of times you get something wrong. it is taking a complex scientific process and making it too simple. misunderstanding of what frye means. they think someone else has to agree with their opinion. it has nothing to do with that.

 

[eaglemom]

JA - misunderstanding - Frye does not mean that someone has to agree with an expert's opinion. What matters in this issue (chloroform) that GCMS is a generally accepted method in measuring chloroform - LOgan, Furton and Vass all agree it is

 

[wenwe4]

JA - the defense doesn't understand the word "error rate" - only a process can have an error rate not a person. misunderstanding what Frye means - requries a certain number of people come to the same conclusion as the expert in question . . . counsel continues to argue as if that matters. Was the methodology used generally accepted . . .Dr Furton & Logan agree that it is. the other questions what methodology did Dr use . . . looking at the relative height of the peak in the chrmotoagram.

 

[Chiquita71]

JA: the gcs is a generally accepted method, even dr. furton. what methodology did the dr. use in coming to an opinion. everyone agrees he did it by looking at the peaks. dr. furton agrees that by looking at the relative peaks you can get relative results.

Dr. furton agrees yes, look at relative hights to determine relative results. all dr. vass's opinion is is the peak is far greater than can be accounted for by chloroform. that is all he said. they agree it is an opinion you can come to, not agree on the opinion. dr. furton's work has been only on body parts. they may not have experience to agree or disagree with his conclusion but that does not stop them from coming to a conclusion. the opinion can be out of left field but that is for the jury to decide.

 

[wenwe4]

JA they all agree that Dr Vass used generally accepted methods, they may not agree with his conclusion. this is not about whether is agreed to, correct, or common - could be out of left field and it's up to the jury to determine if it right or wrong.

Dr Vass doesn't claim to quantify this - he attempted to and there was so much chloroform there he was unable to do it. The defense has withdrawn their objection to Dr Rickenbach's confirmation of chloroform. they chose not to call Rickenback etal and the defense said they didn't want. Dr Weiss was available and defense chose not to call them. Defense didn't enter their testimony in evidence.

 

[cloud9]

OMG! JA just said Dr. Vass attemped to quantify but there was so much chloroform it couldn't be done!

 

[Chiquita71]

dr. vass testified he tried to quantify but the levels were too high. the defense has withdrawn their problem with rickenbok. they have chosen not to call weiss, rickenbok and sigmond. all of those people were available to them. JB says, we don't want them. defense chose not to call, that's fine. Frye cannot be established by the bare assertion of a person. we have provided you with additional witnesses that agree. we are all in agreement. the state has met is burden of the general acceptance.

 

[logicalgirl]

no requirement that more than one expert argue on Frye - when you boil it down to the actual issue, we are all in agreement.

 

[nursebeeme]

"the jury will decide who is credible and who isn't"
-JA

 

[wenwe4]

JA the state has met it burden of general acceptance of methodology . . . other vague . . in this motion on the issue of relevance - it's a little early .

The jury should be permitted to decide about Dr. Vass, no matter how many times he screams that he is not a chemist - the jury should decide.

 

[Chiquita71]

JA: with respect to JB opinions of dr. vass, the jury will decide. the motion should be denied.
HH: thank you.

JB: i would hope that this court takes my word that we are not in agreement with JA. the state says we have all these science and it all agrees. I do not agree with Dr. Vass. Error rate, you cannot compare a judge's error rate...there is no agreement that the crude method of looking at two gas chromatagraphs and saying ,ah...

(imho: ja already covered this. the jury decides.)

JB: says the court decides who is an expert. the defense has no burden under frye.

 

[Chiquita71]

JB: these methods are not scientifically accepted. we did not call those witnesses because it is not our burden. it is not our burden during the whole case to prove anything.

 

[wenwe4]

JB - we didn't call those experts because it's not our burden . . . . under frye we would have certainly called rickenbach and weiss to testify about crude methods of dr. vass

HHBP - next motion

JB - canine alerts

 

[nursebeeme]

sims case comes up again and
*once again*
hhjp reiterates that it was an ineffective use of counsel case