4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #77

[NoSpoonFeeding]

From the PCA for BK's arrest warrant:
BBM

" Kernodle was deceased with wounds that appeared to have been caused by an edged weapon.

Chapin was also deceased with wounds later determined (Autopsy Report provided by Spokane L REDACTEt} I I 13734030 Cormty Medical Examiner dated December 15,2022) to be caused by "sharp-force injuries.

Both Goncalves and Mogen were deceased with visible stab wounds."

MOO The officer included the medical examiner's findings for the purpose of confirming that his observations of stab wounds and use of an edged weapon are correct and to tie them into the knife sheath of the style of knife consistent with the wounds.
It paints a picture and it is consistent, stab wounds, edged blade, sharp force injuries, and sheath from the KBar style of knife.
Some of the wounds are going to naturally be a bit different, were any of the victims standing up or moving away from the attack? Were the first victims flat on a bed? If some of the wounds present a bit differently, that doesn't change who the suspect is and the manner or cause of death.
I don't think that the officer's use of two common variations of wound descriptors has any significance.

 

[jepop]

Keep in mind that Ethan's mention was the only one that had redactions. Something was different about his murder than the 3 girls. It's pretty interesting considering how quickly BK got in and out AND murdered 4 people. You'd think he'd use the same method for all 4 of them so as to not switch weapons, or carry several, yet it appears he might have switched to some other method with Ethan. Since I doubt he had multiple weapons with him, perhaps Ethan picked something up to use it as a weapon and BK took it away and used it against him? If his golf clubs were in Xana's room I'd think maybe it was one of them.

Also, wasn't Ethan's car and stuff held longer? I'm blurry on those facts and a quick Google search (and I do mean quick) didn't come up with what I was hoping for that I thought I had read in the past.

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RBBM: I'm not sure, but my reading of that section of the PCA is that it is a general "Redacted" stamp there on the page and is not referring specifically to Ethan's autopsy as such, but to the the Autopsy Report of the CME which would have included all four victims. So it's not that Ethan's mention "was the only one that had redactions". The autopsy findings for all four victims are redacted from the PCA. MOO

I think, it may simply have been harder for the affiant to describe EThan's wounds at the time he did the walk through at 1122 because of the positioning of his body or something like that. In the PCA the affiant notes of XK that she appeared to have wounds caused by a sharp edged object (P1) and that MM and KG upstairs had visible stab wounds (p2). It seems to me that he was not able to do the same for Ethan at the time of the walk through. This is only MOO and alternative reading.

ETA: So the description of "sharp force injuries" would be a phrase taken from CME's autopsy report, whereas the terms used for the other victims in the PCA are simply the affiant's observations at the time. MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

potentially, it could happen, but I'd offer one caveat: we can't say this is 'certainly doable' imo jmo without a lot more info re crime details, and I'm pretty sure none of us have that.

Neither we nor the video creators have the knowledge/experience required to factor in the emotional, psychological, physical, visceral response or what 'fighting back' looks like. jmo imo. sometimes I find easy things are harder than they look jmo.

editing to add: sometimes my posts are interpreted as snarky even though they were not written that way. this one was def not intended as snarky. only trying to say that killing four people might be harder than it looks and take more time than it would seem in a video.

Hah, if you've been around here long enough you'll know that I welcome debatable posts. How boring would it be if we all thought the same?

The one caveat I would offer back is that he snuck in on sleeping victims, not alert, fighting back victims, making it easer and faster.

I really loathe this defendant. These were some beautiful, bright victims who had a lot to offer the world. So senseless.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Autopsy results from Spokane WA are sealed so far. I'm curious how they placed their estimated time of death.

Xana was up and received her DD order so they know she/they were alive at 4 am. Maybe the partially digested food from JIB, stage of liver mortis and body temps.

Just a guess.

 

[Boxer]

potentially, it could happen, but I'd offer one caveat: we can't say this is 'certainly doable' imo jmo without a lot more info re crime details, and I'm pretty sure none of us have that.

Neither we nor the video creators have the knowledge/experience required to factor in the emotional, psychological, physical, visceral response or what 'fighting back' looks like. jmo imo. sometimes I find easy things are harder than they look jmo.

editing to add: sometimes my posts are interpreted as snarky even though they were not written that way. this one was def not intended as snarky. only trying to say that killing four people might be harder than it looks and take more time than it would seem in a video.

Violent ambushes are over very quick.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

It will be interesting, but since Spokane MEs didn't get the bodies until Sunday night at the earliest, I doubt they'd be able to narrow TOD further than it was already established by phone usage, neighbors' security cams, etc.

Body temps would only give them a large window by the time of the autopsies. Stomach contents might do a little better, but not "to the minute" like security videos of the Elantra leaving the scene.

In short, I doubt the autopsies will tell us much more than we already know about TOD. (Of course, that isn't to say they won't give us other useful info.)

ETA I'm neither a medical examiner nor a forensic anthropologist. @10ofRods or others may have more knowledgable ideas about what the autopsies can reveal.

BBM.

IANAL, but IMO, you can't use the Elantra leaving the scene to determine time of death in court. Doing so is acting off the presumption that the Elantra was connected directly to the murder as if it's fact. It's not fact, which is why there's a trial.

IMO, they need to say TOD was at 4:15 and the Elantra was spotted leaving at that same time to draw the connection. TOD should be determined with other means that are rooted in fact, such as Xana's stomach contents. Also, we have a lot of other clues in this case, such as the TT activity and what time DM and BF texted the group. Still, I expect BK's lawyer to play up that the deaths could have happened later in the morning.

MOO.

 

[Megnut]

It's also possible that D texted her roommates prior to or in conjunction with opening her door to ask for quiet. That would further pinpoint the time of the attack.

Jmo

 

[U.N. Known]

Keep in mind that Ethan's mention was the only one that had redactions. Something was different about his murder than the 3 girls. It's pretty interesting considering how quickly BK got in and out AND murdered 4 people. You'd think he'd use the same method for all 4 of them so as to not switch weapons, or carry several, yet it appears he might have switched to some other method with Ethan. Since I doubt he had multiple weapons with him, perhaps Ethan picked something up to use it as a weapon and BK took it away and used it against him? If his golf clubs were in Xana's room I'd think maybe it was one of them.

Also, wasn't Ethan's car and stuff held longer? I'm blurry on those facts and a quick Google search (and I do mean quick) didn't come up with what I was hoping for that I thought I had read in the past.

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Actually, the information about Ethan's wounds is not redacted. If you notice the partial pages posted, the only thing missing is the name of the medical examiner. I thought there was something missing about his murder too, but It was explained (somewhere!) that there was some issue when the PCA was copied. The page with REDACTED stamped on it is between the first two pages. The redactions are people's names.

The full version of the PCA is added as Exhibit A in the PA arrest/warrant documents. The medical examiner's name, the roommates' names, etc. are listed in the exhibit. The link below is from the PA Court system. The PCA (Exhibit A) begins on page 9.

https://www.pacourts.us/Storage/media/pdfs/20230302/150347-dec.29,2022-searchwarrant(b.kohberger),inventory,exhibits.pdf

 

[maskedwoman]

SG has certainly gone quiet.

Maybe, once there was an arrest, he just sort of "wound down" because he didn't have a need to advocate for finding his daughter's killer any longer.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Hah, if you've been around here long enough you'll know that I welcome debatable posts. How boring would it be if we all thought the same?

True that - I came here for thoughtful analysis!

The one caveat I would offer back is that he snuck in on sleeping victims, not alert, fighting back victims, making it easer and faster.

The one caveat I would offer is the word "if"
that's not snark, that's my teasing, by the way

honestly, it seems like Xana, Kaylee and/or Maddie may have been awake based on some of what we've learned since the initial reports that they were all asleep. I hope they were. I'm not sure they were

I really loathe this defendant. These were some beautiful, bright victims who had a lot to offer the world. So senseless.

MOO

Yep.

 

[Gemmie]

RBBM: I'm not sure, but my reading of that section of the PCA is that it is a general "Redacted" stamp there on the page and is not referring specifically to Ethan's autopsy as such, but to the the Autopsy Report of the CME which would have included all four victims. So it's not that Ethan's mention "was the only one that had redactions". The autopsy findings for all four victims are redacted from the PCA. MOO

SBMFF.

Good to know.

 

[ktm44]

I use TT often and when I first read the post you quoted I thought that cant be how it works, Im sure it stops or powers down after a few mins and turns itself off.

So I opened up the TT app scrolled and watched a few videos then came to one and just sat the phone down with it playing and went to lunch. I returned almost an hour later and the same video was still fully illuminated, volume up and continually replaying on a loop ; (

I believe there is also an auto scroll feature that can be used as well, which will continue to advance from one video to the next.

 

[maskedwoman]

From the PCA for BK's arrest warrant:
BBM

" Kernodle was deceased with wounds that appeared to have been caused by an edged weapon.

Chapin was also deceased with wounds later determined (Autopsy Report provided by Spokane L REDACTEt} I I 13734030 Cormty Medical Examiner dated December 15,2022) to be caused by "sharp-force injuries.

Both Goncalves and Mogen were deceased with visible stab wounds."

MOO The officer included the medical examiner's findings for the purpose of confirming that his observations of stab wounds and use of an edged weapon are correct and to tie them into the knife sheath of the style of knife consistent with the wounds.
It paints a picture and it is consistent, stab wounds, edged blade, sharp force injuries, and sheath from the KBar style of knife.
Some of the wounds are going to naturally be a bit different, were any of the victims standing up or moving away from the attack? Were the first victims flat on a bed? If some of the wounds present a bit differently, that doesn't change who the suspect is and the manner or cause of death.
I don't think that the officer's use of two common variations of wound descriptors has any significance.

I'm not convinced that the change in wording necessarily indicates a change in weapon. When I did some research on sharp force injuries, it included incised wounds, stab wounds, chop wounds and combination wounds. So, as I understand that, all of the wounds described in the PCA could have been created with a Ka-Bar being used in various ways. I can certainly imagine that if Ethan and Xana fought back, and what we know about Xana certainly indicates she did, BK might have resorted to slashing with the knife as well as stabbing.

I will also say that all of those different types of wounds would certainly suggest a great deal of blood flowed. The wounds were not all delivered so as to be fatal without much blood, as we originally discussed. That idea would also fit with what we have thought was the blood that flowed down the house's foundation from the room Ethan and Xana were in. MOOooo

 

[Gemmie]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... high school friend, Schyler Jacobson.

Jacobson, a 2012 graduate of Pleasant Valley, said he and Kohberger, who was a grade behind him, would often run together at night to keep in shape during high school but had limited contact since then.
“That was 11, 12 years ago. People change,” Jacobson said.

Details emerge about Monroe County suspect in Idaho killings

As a student at DeSales University, Bryan Christopher Kohberger assisted with a research project into how emotions and psychological traits influence decision-making when committing a crime.

www.citizensvoice.com

Vid of him talking about it to MSM reporter ~ 55 secs in:

 

[jepop]

great point... I also noticed Ethan's 'sharp-force injuries' were described differently than Xana's 'edged weapon' and different than Kaylee's and Maddie's 'visible stab wounds' and since the PCA isn't a creative writing exercise, I noted it as potentially important imo jmo icbw

Just to clarify something that stood out to me after reading your post. EM's wounds are described differently to the others in the PCA, but that brief description comes from the later autopsy report not the affiant. It's the CME's wording and IMO the affiant includes this snippet from the autopsy to confirm that EM was also murdered with an edged weopen (ie a knife?). In the case of the other three victims the affiant is stating what he could see re wound type at the scene and obviously prior to detailed autopsy. I'd guess that he was unable to ascertain by sight the nature of EM's wounds. Could be body position? This was pre forensics so bodies would be 'in situ' IMO. We actually don't know how the CME has characterised the wounds of the other victims or if they will be markedly different from the "sharp force" description assigned to EM's injuries. This is JMO but I suspect that in the case of all four victims, the autopsy reports will contain descriptions that include terms such as "sharp force injuries" amongst others. MOO.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I am new here and first of all, I would like to say how impressed I am with all that you are doing here in helping to solve the crime. I followed the discussion for a while and I do hope I got the gist of how to post but if I make any faux pas please do not take it against me

Regarding the probable cause affidavit - PCA Kohberger I have a few things that I noticed that are just not sitting right with me:

"D.M. stated she was awoken at approximately 4:00 a.m. by what she stated sounded like Goncalves playing wilh her dog in one of the upstairs bedrooms, which were located on the third floor."

On the other hand, we get this information from the camera (which in MOO should be more accurate time-wise than witness perception) where it says that the camera recorded the dog barking starting at 4:17 am:

"At approximately 4:17 am., a security camera located at I 112 King Road, a residence immediately to the northwest of 1122 King Road, picked up distorted audio of what sounded like voices or a whimper followed by a loud thud. A dog can also be heard barking numerous times starting at 4:17 am. The security camera is less than fifty feet from the west wall of Kernodle's bedroom."

However, Kohberger was already seen leaving 1122 King Road at 4:20 as per PCA and it was footage from multiple videos in the neighborhood - so again cameras time wise should be pretty accurate:

"A review of footage from multiple videos obtained from the King Road Neighborhood strowed multiple sightings of Suspect Vehicle I starting at 3:29 a.m. and ending at 4:20 a.m. These sightings review of footage from multiple videos obtained from the King Road Neighborhood strowed multiple sightings of Suspect Vehicle I starting at 3:29 a.m. and ending at 4:20 a.m. These sightings show Suspect Vehicle I makes an initial three passes by the 1122 King Road residence and then leave via Walenta Drive."

It is all MOO IMOO and I might be just a newbie but from the PCA it looks as if Kohberger had only 3 minutes from the dog barking (4:17 am) because dog would start barking immediately during the first attack on the second floor ( I was thinking that maybe this discrepancy was because of the camera being activated only at 4:17 for the first time but it says that dog was heard multiple times and it seems continuous recording starting at 4:17) and leaving at 4:20 am. Maybe someone can shed some light on this and help me to think better about it. I am truly confused in MOO IMOO and would like your view of this.

Welcome to WS @OnaZgSleuth ! Great post! Since OPs have already replied with their views that also cover what I know, I'll just say it's good to hear from you and welcome to this thread!

 

[Red Clover]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... high school friend, Schyler Jacobson.

Jacobson, a 2012 graduate of Pleasant Valley, said he and Kohberger, who was a grade behind him, would often run together at night to keep in shape during high school but had limited contact since then.
“That was 11, 12 years ago. People change,” Jacobson said.

Details emerge about Monroe County suspect in Idaho killings

As a student at DeSales University, Bryan Christopher Kohberger assisted with a research project into how emotions and psychological traits influence decision-making when committing a crime.

www.citizensvoice.com

Vid of him talking about it to MSM reporter ~ 55 secs in:

Thank you @Gemmie. That was helpful.

 

[Cool Cats]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... in Washington BK's neighbor invited him to the gym but he declined. I don't know if Kohberger just didn't want to go or if it is true what he said, that he had something else to do.

He didn't ask to go to the gym at another time but instead, later, he invited the neighbor for coffee.

By this time the neighbor was avoiding him because when Kohberger started talking he wouldn't stop and it was hard to "get away" from him.

You know the type, happens on the phone too. You give hints but the "talkative " person doesn't take the hint.
Doesn't "get" the social cues.

His downstairs neighbors described him as an insomniac who stayed up until 4:00am and paced around,
intermittently running his garbage disposal. Interesting that he was spotted by the FBI outside at 4:00am putting trash in his neighbor's bin - in Pennsylvania. And he was up at 1:00am sorting his trash during his arrest.

Interesting because his phone pinged on the King Rd cell tower 11 times late at night into the early morning hours. And that the murders occurred around 4:00am.

Unlike most people who would likely be too tired and not have the energy to do what Bryan did that night, Bryan was used to being active at 4:00am. That was another advantage Kohberger had, especially with the 2 students fighting back. Kohberger was wide awake but those 2 students were likely ready to sleep. Plus, this murderer ambushed them - took them by surprise.

Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger was eager to make friends, neighbors say — and so chatty one sometimes dodged him

Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger has been called a loner, but others described him as being outgoing, charming, and eager to make friends.

www.insider.com

 

[Red Clover]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... in Washington BK's neighbor invited him to the gym but he declined. I don't know if Kohberger just didn't want to go or if it is true what he said, that he had something else to do.

He didn't ask to go to the gym at another time but instead, later, he invited the neighbor for coffee.

By this time the neighbor was avoiding him because when Kohberger started talking he wouldn't stop and it was hard to "get away" from him.

You know the type, happens on the phone too. You give hints but the "talkative " person doesn't take the hint.
Doesn't "get" the social cues.

His downstairs neighbors described him as an insomniac who stayed up until 4:00am and paced around,
intermittently running his garbage disposal. Interesting that he was spotted by the FBI outside at 4:00am putting trash in his neighbor's bin - in Pennsylvania. And he was up at 1:00am sorting his trash during his arrest.

Interesting because his phone pinged on the King Rd cell tower 11 times late at night into the early morning hours. And that the murders occurred around 4:00am.

Unlike most people who would likely be too tired and not have the energy to do what Bryan did that night, Bryan was used to being active at 4:00am.

Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger was eager to make friends, neighbors say — and so chatty one sometimes dodged him

Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger has been called a loner, but others described him as being outgoing, charming, and eager to make friends.

www.insider.com

That's an interesting article, thanks for pointing me towards it.

I wonder how well he functioned for his day classes, being such a night owl. His students seemed less than impressed with his abilities as a TA and one described him as gruff.

You're right,@Cool Cats most people aren't out and about being active and carrying out energetic acts that late/early. I wonder when he did sleep? Early evening into night maybe, awakening around midnight.

Also- who runs a garbage disposal in the middle of the night when others are sleeping? Seems inconsiderate at best, like not catching on to a social cue, maybe because he'd only lived with his parents he wasn't aware that running the garbage disposal at 4:00 am is considered rude in a living situation with shared walls and floors.

 

[Gemmie]

That's an interesting article, thanks for pointing me towards it.

I wonder how well he functioned for his day classes, being such a night owl. His students seemed less than impressed with his abilities as a TA and one described him as gruff.

You're right,@Cool Cats most people aren't out and about being active and carrying out energetic acts that late/early. I wonder when he did sleep? Early evening into night maybe, awakening around midnight.

Also- who runs a garbage disposal in the middle of the night when others are sleeping? Seems inconsiderate at best, like not catching on to a social cue, maybe because he'd only lived with his parents he wasn't aware that running the garbage disposal at 4:00 am is considered rude in a living situation with shared walls and floors.

It's just as rude running a garbage disposal at 4am when you're living with someone (parents in this case). lol You'd think his mom would have asked him not to do that the next morning and that would have been his clue. Neighbors likely aren't going to confront you over something like that.

Which begs the question... just what does he feel the need to grind up in a garbage disposal at 4am?? It's rather odd.