4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #78

[Sister Golden Hair]

Additional facts re cellphone towers and coverage in Moscow:

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271694187.html

interesting points:

...Levitan said a typical cellphone tower covers an area of 12 square miles. Someone could be miles away from the nearest cell tower, and Moscow is a roughly 3-by-5-mile town.

Levitan added that the nearest cell tower to the King Road home covers an area of 27.3 square miles — the same size as nearly 14,000 football fields. Moscow police said Kohberger’s historical phone records were pulled to determine whether Kohberger “stalked any of the victims” before the stabbings. Levitan said if authorities during the court proceedings try to show Kohberger visited the home 12 times, “they will be wrong and could damage their case.”

...A list provided by Levitan, which he has gathered from his years testifying in various cases, showed a total of four cell towers in Moscow — including the nearest one to King Road, which is along Paradise Creek Street. The three other cell towers within the city of Moscow, according to Levitan’s list, are near Residence Street, East F Street and Paradise Ridge. A cell tower also sits along Foothill Road, which is west of Moscow Mountain and about 10 miles outside of the city.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I had checked the hours of operation for those places and if I remember correctly there are at least 1 or 2 open until 11.

Edit: I will add though that everything seems benign when you look at it outside of the context of “this guys dna was found in the house”. So I’m not sure we can weight this information the same.

The DNA could still be at the scene. BK could still be the killer. And he could have still been at Walmart on August 21st at 11 pm.

 

[Deleted member 718]

I had checked the hours of operation for those places and if I remember correctly there are at least 1 or 2 open until 11.

Edit: I will add though that everything seems benign when you look at it outside of the context of “this guys dna was found in the house”. So I’m not sure we can weight this information the same.

Yeah, but it's in the probable cause so there's a nexus.

 

[al66pine]

Ka-Bar Related Subpoenas?

The WalMart warrant (1217 knife and sheath) was Jan 1 2022 to present (signed Nov 21 2022)
The first Ebay warrant (1217 Knife and sheath) was Jan 1 2022 to present (signed Nov 26 2022)
The Amazon warrant (1217 Knife and sheath) was Jan 1 2022 to present (signed Nov 26 2022)
The second Ebay warrant (1217 knife and sheath for 13 specific buyers) was Jan 1 2022 to present (signed nov 28 2022)
The KaBar Warrant (multiple knife models and sheath) was Jan 1 2022 to present (signed Nov 28th 2022)
The Blue Ridge warrant (1217S +/- knife?) covered Jan 1 2022 to present (warrant signed December 12th 2022)....

snipped for focus @Nila Aella Thanks for your post w subpoena info, links, and ending dates ("to present"/signed dates) sought for knife & sheath transactions.

If BK did order a new Ka-Bar sheath (to replace the one left at King Road crime scene, assuming he was there), his order would have been btwn Nov. 13 and his Dec. 30 arrest date imo.

ENDING DATES ("to present"/signed date) for ^ subpoenas varied from Nov. 21, 2021 to Dec. 12, 2022.

Seems then, LE would not have been provided info re any sale to BK if he ordered btwn ending dates and Dec 30.

Are new subpoenas appropriate, or am I missing/misinterpreting something? The latter is possible. Entirely possible.

 

[Boxer]

Additional facts re cellphone towers and coverage in Moscow:

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271694187.html

interesting points:

...Levitan said a typical cellphone tower covers an area of 12 square miles. Someone could be miles away from the nearest cell tower, and Moscow is a roughly 3-by-5-mile town.

Levitan added that the nearest cell tower to the King Road home covers an area of 27.3 square miles — the same size as nearly 14,000 football fields. Moscow police said Kohberger’s historical phone records were pulled to determine whether Kohberger “stalked any of the victims” before the stabbings. Levitan said if authorities during the court proceedings try to show Kohberger visited the home 12 times, “they will be wrong and could damage their case.”

...A list provided by Levitan, which he has gathered from his years testifying in various cases, showed a total of four cell towers in Moscow — including the nearest one to King Road, which is along Paradise Creek Street. The three other cell towers within the city of Moscow, according to Levitan’s list, are near Residence Street, East F Street and Paradise Ridge. A cell tower also sits along Foothill Road, which is west of Moscow Mountain and about 10 miles outside of the city.

CAST technology, can from a single tower locate a phone by the distance of the ping from the tower in a 30 degree arc.
Each ping provides distance and the arc.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

it's in the probable cause so there's a nexus.

Personally, at 1.7 miles away, I'd call it a stretch of a nexus, but it worked for the purposes of the PCA. 1.7 miles away sounds pretty close, until the fact that Moscow is approximately 3 x 5 miles of a town pops into the convo. Then it's a little less compelling because it's basically halfway across town. If I were the defense, I'd do that math. Add to that, the shopping centers are much, much closer than the King Road house, and I think that when those facts are considered, that particular piece of PCA is 'a stretch'. That's jmo and looking at it from the objective perspective.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271694187.html#storylink=cpy

 

[Nova]

snipped by me for focus:

I didn't do a lot of work on this, so I didn't find the exact link, but I think it's altogether possible that there could be MOUs that allowed/required BK to be on the UofI campus. Both interlocal agreements and MOUs exist in the area, and those could be used to work out any issues re allocation of costs/funding/etc.

Here's one re tribes:
https://www.uidaho.edu/-/media/UIdaho-Responsive/Files/president/direct-reports/tribal-relations/inter-institutional-mou.pdf

Here's an interlocal agreement that covers LE: MRSC - Interlocal Cooperation in Law Enforcement
There are other interlocals between WA & ID, too.

And of course, Moscow's 911 calls go to Pullman, WA, so the states have definitely found ways to make cooperation and sharing resources work to benefit all of the citizens while being mindful of their duties re state resources.

WHITCOM 9-1-1

www.pullman-wa.gov

Register for WSU and U of I co-op | University of Idaho

UIdaho and WSU share academic resources that enrich educational opportunities for students at each university.

www.uidaho.edu

and there's a reciprocity agreement between ID & WA, so maybe this could have come into play with BK as well? I'm not going to dig in and do the research, but I think you raised a really valid point, and I think that concerns re state funding and taxes, etc. are probably already resolved b/c the two states do work together.

RCW 28B.15.750: Waiver of nonresident tuition fees differential—Washington/Idaho reciprocity program.

app.leg.wa.gov

Sister, I don't see anything in your links about swapping faculty members, much less TAs. No doubt professors from one place do "guest lectures" at the other, just as I have often done myself in the past. But that is done on a voluntary basis and, unless some sort of stipend has been assigned, it's done on an unpaid basis.

Yes, the two unis have set up a system of reciprocity in some fields, but students who take courses at the college where they are NOT enrolled are treated, for most purposes, as transfer students. If they pass the course, the credits then transfer back to their "home" uni. (The big exception is "residency". For those who don't know, almost all colleges require that their students do a minimal number of hours at the institution granting the degree. Four-year programs commonly require two full years be done at the "home" uni. But the WSU/UofI agreement allows classes in certain departments at one place to count toward the residency requirement of the other.)

I didn't do an in-depth study either, but I don't find anything that says a TA will be required to work at a uni where s/he is not employed. As I wrote before, I am particularly skeptical that either school would require a first-term grad student to work at another university.

I have heard of cooperative programs before. (I did most of my coursework in NYC and LA, where there are many, many colleges in close proximity.) And I have taken courses from "guest faculty" who were on loan from their tenured positions elsewhere. But such "guests" were in residence where they were teaching and were paid by the host institution for the relevant terms.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Sister, I don't see anything in your links about swapping faculty members, much less TAs. No doubt professors from one place do "guest lectures" at the other, just as I have often done myself in the past. But that is done on a voluntary basis and, unless some sort of stipend has been assigned, it's done on an unpaid basis.

Yes, the two unis have set up a system of reciprocity in some fields, but students who take courses at the college where they are NOT enrolled are treated, for most purposes, as transfer students. If they pass the course, the credits then transfer back to their "home" uni. (The big exception is "residency". For those who don't know, almost all colleges require that their students do a minimal number of hours at the institution granting the degree. Four-year programs commonly require two full years be done at the "home" uni. But the WSU/UofI agreement allows classes in certain departments at one place to count toward the residency requirement of the other.)

I didn't do an in-depth study either, but I don't find anything that says a TA will be required to work at a uni where s/he is not employed. As I wrote before, I am particularly skeptical that either school would require a first-term grad student to work at another university.

I have heard of cooperative programs before. (I did most of my coursework in NYC and LA, where there are many, many colleges in close proximity.) And I have taken courses from "guest faculty" who were on loan from their tenured positions elsewhere. But such "guests" were in residence where they were teaching and were paid by the host institution for the relevant terms.

Beats me. I was just pointing out that agreements do exist, others may exist (MOUs, etc.) and there are allocation funds set up with the states, so the argument that funds would be an issue because of state tax issues/two different states is not valid. I stopped there.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>
My thoughts are not highly organized as I keep shifting information we gather from one pile to another. Many go into the 'trash' pile (like the naked runner) while others stay in the more 'valid' stack (dna on sheath & video of Elantra at house).
This factoid of the Elantra and its other reported appearances near the house go into my 'might be suspicious' group. There very well might be other valid reasons that they could move out but at this point, with so few facts for me to move them, they remain there. I will, without disappointment, move them as soon as I have facts that support that move. And, oh my gosh, is this pile ever large!!!
<modsnip: Removed reference to removed post>

I'd be a lot more sold on the Elantra if LE hadn't changed the years. IMO I think that dings the case a bit. Now if DNA from the victims is found in the Elantra and there are no evidence issues surrounding the find, then who cares what year it is, but otherwise, the model year change is problematic - or at least an area where the defense can make a point. IIRC, there are quite a few specific differences between the model years. Now mind you, I can't tell an Elantra from any other small white car but I'm surprised that the FBI's experts couldn't ID the right year. I expect AT may show the same surprise in front of the jury. And the timing around when they changed the years is also important, I think.

As for the touch DNA on sheath, potentially much more compelling, but we don't know if it will be admitted, we don't know if there are any chain of custody issues with that sheath, we don't know a lot about it. If it's not admitted, I think it will really make BARD difficult based on what we know now. I felt very differently about this back in January after the PCA but before the warrants.

At this point in time, based on what we know now, I agree that there are lots of things shifting, but I don't see full BARD and I do see some reasonable doubt opportunities. ICBW, and of course, we know very little.

 

[jepop]

There are 12 mentioned King Rd cell tower pings with 11 listed as late night early morning.

This traffic stop could be the one King Rd cell tower ping that did not occur in the late night early morning hours. Maybe the Citation is available to look up, it isn't under a Gag Order. It would give the time.

The stalking assertion comes from the LE professionals who see a connection to stalking behavior. I would need to check the PCA to clarify this assertion, see how they worded this.

EDIT

TIME OF TRAFFIC STOP POSTED BELOW - 11:40pm

To clarify, when BK was pulled over for the Aug 21 traffic stop at corner of Farm Rd/Pullman Highway, it was 11.37pm and he was pinging off cellular resources "consistent with the location of the traffic stop during this time". The PCA seems to state that prior to this, between c 10.34pm and 11,35pm, the phone was utilsing different cellular resources that provided coverage to the King Road residence. MOO. IMO each of the 12 times, currently unredacted from the relevant search warrant (and IMO contained in the currently completely sealed warrant for AT&T), will present as a time range and have more precise location estimations/analyses. When BK was pulled over, at Farm Rd intersection he was not pinging off towers that provide coverage to King Road, but had been (as discovered later by LE on 23rd DEc) just minutes prior and for the time range specified. MOO

P18 of docs related to Washington Serach Warrant. Quote is from PCA attached to search warrant docs.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/search%20warrant%20for%20bryan%20kohberger%20apartment/ddb059f6cc8e24c1/full.pdf

"One of these occasions , on August 21, 2022 , the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources
providing coverage to the King Road Residence from approximately 10:34 p.m. to 11:35 p.m. Atapproximately 11:37 p.m., Kohberger was stopped by Latah County Sheriff's Deputy CorporaDuke , as mentioned above . The 8548 Phone was utilizing cellular resources consistent with thelocation ofthe traffic stop during this time (Farm Road and Pullman Highway)"

EBM spelling

 

[jepop]

I have wondered, if he bought the sheath and the knife separately, and if it's possible, he, at some point, RETURNED the knife. It would be the perfect place to "dispose" of it. IMO

Wouldn't returning the knife, post murders, be incredibly suspicious? Retailers would have records and LE would be on to that straight away IMO. It's an idea ofcourse, but realistically I can't imagine that the killer would return it! But who knows?! Ditto for replacing the lost sheath. I've seen a post or two about that possibility and IMO I would hope LE have checked that out, although so far we haven't seen additional knife/sheath retailer/ distributor warrants for end NOv to BK's arrest. OTOH, I also have doubts that the murderer would go out of his way to leave a trail showing purchase of a replacment sheath in the months post murders. MOO

 

[Nila Aella]

Ka-Bar Related Subpoenas?


snipped for focus @Nila Aella Thanks for your post w subpoena info, links, and ending dates ("to present"/signed dates) sought for knife & sheath transactions.

If BK did order a new Ka-Bar sheath (to replace the one left at King Road crime scene, assuming he was there), his order would have been btwn Nov. 13 and his Dec. 30 arrest date imo.

ENDING DATES ("to present"/signed date) for ^ subpoenas varied from Nov. 21, 2021 to Dec. 12, 2022.

Seems then, LE would not have been provided info re any sale to BK if he ordered btwn ending dates and Dec 30.

Are new subpoenas appropriate, or am I missing/misinterpreting something? The latter is possible. Entirely possible.

I totally agree!
The only warrant I see that extends into December is the Blue Ridge (distribution) warrant signed Dec 12. The point of purchase past the other warrant end dates is missing. LE might have found a point of purchase in the earlier timeframe though (end of November), resulting in no need to check the later timeframe?

JMO

 

[Nila Aella]

Wouldn't returning the knife, post murders, be incredibly suspicious? Retailers would have records and LE would be on to that straight away IMO. It's an idea ofcourse, but realistically I can't imagine that the killer would return it! But who knows?! Ditto for replacing the lost sheath. I've seen a post or two about that possibility and IMO I would hope LE have checked that out, although so far we haven't seen additional knife/sheath retailer/ distributor warrants for end NOv to BK's arrest. OTOH, I also have doubts that the murderer would go out of his way to leave a trail showing purchase of a replacment sheath in the months post murders. MOO

If the knife was something others around him knew he owned (friends/family), ditching it right after the crime would look suspicious. He would have had to replace the sheath fairly quickly. IF he kept it, he would need a new sheath for it at some point. JMO

 

[Nila Aella]

On March 6, MPD posted this:
One of three cases they were requesting information from the public about. No other information provided.
The name on the truck...TV and Appliance store on Warbonnet near Walmart.
Is this a Ford Fusion?
MOO

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ETA MOO

 

[jepop]

The intersection of W Pullman and Farm Road is right by Walmart, Target and Winco.

Yes, however this isn't an area which utilises cellular resources consistent with the King's Road residence. Per PCA (emphasis mine):

""One of these occasions , on August 21, 2022 , the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources providing coverage to the King Road Residence from approximately 10:34 p.m. to 11:35 p.m. At approximately 11:37 p.m., Kohberger was stopped by Latah County Sheriff's Deputy CorporaDuke , as mentioned above . The 8548 Phone was utilizing cellular resources consistent with thelocation ofthe traffic stop during this time (Farm Road and Pullman Highway)"

Seems to be saying that at the time of the traffic stop BK was outside the area that provides cellular coverage for King Road house. PCA is saying one of the twelve occasions BK's phone was in the area of KIng Road was on Aug 21st but prior to being pull over for traffic stop. MOO.

 

[NCWatcher]

So apparently BK was not parking to "lurk" when he was charged with the seatbelt violation in August, but was pulled over for suspicion of some sort of moving violation. But rather than being charged with whatever that moving violation was, he was charged with not wearing a seatbelt? It was around 11:30pm near a bunch of stores and over 1.5 miles from the King Rd house but we're wondering if BK just being there was suspicious at that time of night?

I graduated from college in NC a long time ago but since when was 11:30pm considered late at night in a town that has a university in it? On the night of the murders, the housemates were out until all hours...1, 2am. And XK was expecting a food delivery later than that. I don't think that late night hours happened only on Saturday nights in Moscow. One can certainly have questions about why BK was hanging out in Moscow at all but it's arguable whether 11:30 is "late at night" for most students.
JMO

 

[maskedwoman]

I'd be a lot more sold on the Elantra if LE hadn't changed the years. IMO I think that dings the case a bit. Now if DNA from the victims is found in the Elantra and there are no evidence issues surrounding the find, then who cares what year it is, but otherwise, the model year change is problematic - or at least an area where the defense can make a point. IIRC, there are quite a few specific differences between the model years. Now mind you, I can't tell an Elantra from any other small white car but I'm surprised that the FBI's experts couldn't ID the right year. I expect AT may show the same surprise in front of the jury. And the timing around when they changed the years is also important, I think.

As for the touch DNA on sheath, potentially much more compelling, but we don't know if it will be admitted, we don't know if there are any chain of custody issues with that sheath, we don't know a lot about it. If it's not admitted, I think it will really make BARD difficult based on what we know now. I felt very differently about this back in January after the PCA but before the warrants.

At this point in time, based on what we know now, I agree that there are lots of things shifting, but I don't see full BARD and I do see some reasonable doubt opportunities. ICBW, and of course, we know very little.

I'm less concerned about the year changing. The body changed very little from 2015 to 2016. Plus, it's not like they had a tag number or VIN at the beginning. They were working from video of a moving car, at night. I can understand why their guess was not exactly correct, although I agree it might have been a better idea to give a year range since there are clearly a few years where it's not easy to tell them apart. MOOooo

 

[SpiderFalcon]

Wouldn't returning the knife, post murders, be incredibly suspicious? Retailers would have records and LE would be on to that straight away IMO. It's an idea ofcourse, but realistically I can't imagine that the killer would return it! But who knows?! Ditto for replacing the lost sheath. I've seen a post or two about that possibility and IMO I would hope LE have checked that out, although so far we haven't seen additional knife/sheath retailer/ distributor warrants for end NOv to BK's arrest. OTOH, I also have doubts that the murderer would go out of his way to leave a trail showing purchase of a replacment sheath in the months post murders. MOO

PURE SPECULATION: Re the knife, he could also have just taken it into the store and left it...IMO. Wasn't he seen in a store on the afternoon of the murders?

 

[Boxer]

PURE SPECULATION: Re the knife, he could also have just taken it into the store and left it...IMO. Wasn't he seen in a store on the afternoon of the murders?

MOO any clerk would remember such a transaction when they saw the murders had been done with a KaBar style knife.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I'm less concerned about the year changing. The body changed very little from 2015 to 2016. Plus, it's not like they had a tag number or VIN at the beginning. They were working from video of a moving car, at night. I can understand why their guess was not exactly correct, although I agree it might have been a better idea to give a year range since there are clearly a few years where it's not easy to tell them apart. MOOooo

Per the PCA and in all of the press releases and conferences IIRC, they first stated 20ll-2013 Hyundai Elantra, and that is a big difference from 2015-2016 imo. I'm not a car expert, but I know we've got one around here somewhere...

LE also had the video in the neighborhood where the car was on video doing the three-point turn, etc., so more than just a fast moving vehicle? (See page 6 of the PCA - multiple videos from the area).

IMO, I think it's less about what you or I or any of us think. I'm looking at this from the defense perspective and seeing an issue I think they can validly raise. I'm not defending BK or side-eyeing LE; I'm just looking at things that I think are questionable, and that is one of them IMO. Where BARD is the totality of the evidence, reasonable doubt can be the chipping away of BARD IMO if that makes sense.