4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #79

[North_Idaho_Nony]

It certainly can be. It has some really deep sections, as well. I know that there are dams along its length. Probably very silty on the bottom, though. It was never an easy river to navigate, either (so not many places where one can get into the river or put in a boat - Clarkston is one of those places, though; both Lewis and Clark used the area as a base of operations, having found big sections of the Snake to be unpassable by boat, that area was their best field camp.

If a Ka-Bar knife is found in the Snake River, I would say it has evidentiary value; I think the jury's ears would prick up. Especially as phone records and the video in Albertson's show the defendant to have been right in that area. However, it's a needle in a haystack.

(I think you used your terms properly, btw - its evidentiary value would be lessened by having all relevant biological evidence scraped off in the sandpaper bottom of that river, IMO).

But it would still form a nice link in the circumstantial trail, if found in the Snake. And I do believe it's possible that it's in the Snake and that LE is monitoring the traps at the various dams down river from there (as they did in the Suzanne Morphew case, but in that case, to no avail).

We will likely hear at the PH whether they sent divers into the water near that coffee stand (I bet they did).

IMO.

I’ve mentioned this case before in this thread, but with respect to the Snake River in the particular area where BK was after the murders, my guess is the knife likely won’t be found if he dumped it there since Rachael Anderson’s remains were never found despite multiple searches:
Charles Capone Found Guilty of Killing His Estranged Wife Rachael Anderson

Reminder: Bill Thompson was the Latah County PA who secured the “no body” homicide conviction in Rachael’s murder. IIRC, this was the first successful “no body” murder conviction in the entire state of Idaho. I guarantee the defense team will not make the mistake of underestimating any prosecution led by BT!

MOO

 

[schooling]

To me, there has to be a good reason why he drives down that way two different times within a 24 hour period, both trips after the Elantra is seen leaving 1122 King area.

First time, it was still dark. He might have been unable to find his way easily to the river (doesn't strike as a good navigator/driver, JMO). He drives past a second time after going back to 1122 King. It's even possible (PURE SPECULATION) that he realized fully, in the light of day, that he had left the sheath in the house. He may have gone back hoping it was outside the house somewhere. Finding the house still unawake and no police present, I do wonder if he thought about going back inside (maybe he even did - but got spooked and left without the sheath).

My own profile of BK is that he is fastidious, believes in certain theories of crime, and must have been somewhat agitated by the missing sheath. Did he delay his evidence dumping until the second trip? I don't think the PCA actually mentions many stops on that second trip (but that doesn't mean stops didn't happen).

Since we know that Albertson's has a video record of him in the aisles, they can compute his approximate time of going through the check-out stand pretty closely. If he paid cash for his purchases, that may be a weak link. However, both the store video and the coffee worker have him in Clarkston that Sunday at around noon (but he was only at the house at 9:30? For how long? What was he doing in between?)

I also think he's fairly naïve about the landscape of that part of Idaho/Washington. He may have thought he'd easily find a forest road or something, where he could dump his evidence. He makes that first pass just before dawn, stops a few times, but apparently in towns or near the road. Second time through, we have a missing hour or so for that route. And he has his phone on!

IIRC. IMO. Speculation.

I've always imagined that he got very little sleep that night. And obsessively refreshed the web to see what/when the crime was discovered. After not seeing anything on the news he probably drove by to see what was going on.

I never believed that he would have gotten out of the car to look for the sheath. I never EVER believed that he might have gone back into the house.

But now I believe all of those things seem highly plausible. With the lack of news reports he probably convinced himself to drive by the scene to check for the small possibility that it hadn't been reported yet. Driving around might have led to walking around which might have led to the urge to quickly go inside of the house. I wouldn't...but then again I wouldn't do anything he's accused of being capable of doing.

If BK truly didn't see DM on the way out. You'd have to imagine that he might have thought that no one else was home. And that the house was still without a single person alive...


MOO

 

[schooling]

Also...a few questions...

Was LE's murder window so tight that they neglected to pull video from 2am up until the discovery of the murders that afternoon?

Meaning anything after 5am was ignored?

And when they finally discovered the cellular data pointing to the 9am drive by it was months later. Were all said videos gone by then? Overwritten.

If so...IMO the defense is likely want to know why no video exists from that morning drive by...in the same locations as the previous night where video exists of a car similar to his, in the same place cellular data said he should have been....

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I’ve mentioned this case before in this thread, but with respect to the Snake River in the particular area where BK was after the murders, my guess is the knife likely won’t be found if he dumped it there since Rachael Anderson’s remains were never found despite multiple searches:
Charles Capone Found Guilty of Killing His Estranged Wife Rachael Anderson

Reminder: Bill Thompson was the Latah County PA who secured the “no body” homicide conviction in Rachael’s murder. IIRC, this was the first successful “no body” murder conviction in the entire state of Idaho. I guarantee the defense team will not make the mistake of underestimating any prosecution led by BT!

MOO

Thank you for the reminder, @North_Idaho_Nony !

I remember you mentioning Rachael Anderson's case and Bill Thompson as PA securing a "no body" conviction against Charles Capone for the murder of his estranged wife, whose remains he probably disposed of in the Snake River, never to be found.

I was pleased to see him "onsite" at the crime scene and speaking to the press in the first few days after the murders of Xana, Maddie, Kaylee and Ethan.

He really seems like a strong advocate for justice in that community, and I have a lot of respect for him and believe he will be unstoppable in his quest for justice for the 4 victims.

Bill Thompson

IMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Mmmm. Is Snake River fast-flowing? IIRC here in Australia, there have been sections of waterways where the sediment* beneath the water has been very closely inspected -(successfully) - not "dredging" as such, but using teams of divers.

If the knife was located, is it of evidentiary value now?

*I don't think this is the correct term - can't think of the correct name.

I don't know the Snake River conditions at that location on that date.

It would be circumstantial evidence if a knife was found where BK actually was, and the knife matched the victim's wounds. Probably no forensic evidence left on it, but they hit the jackpot and got a smoking gun by finding the sheath with DNA on it.

There was enough DNA and it was in good enough condition for the lab to get a suspect profile, thus, if the jury finds the DNA credible I believe BK will be convicted.

Even though Jurors consider DNA evidence to be strong evidence they don't just automatically convict on that, jurors can remain skeptical. What strengthens DNA evidence is when you pare and it with strong circumstantial evidence such as multiple car videos and multiple cell tower pings.

Also what strengthens DNA evidence is when the DNA is pared with a witness account. The knife sheath DNA confirms a suspect who is male, 6 feet tall, athletic build, bushy eyebrows.

The sheath DNA does not exclude the witness description. The witness description does not exclude the DNA. The DNA and witness description go together.

What Evidence Matters to Jurors? The Prevalence and Importance of Different Homicide Trial Evidence to Mock Jurors - PMC

The present research explores how important different trial evidence is to mock jurors’ decisions. Study 1 surveys legal professionals to determine what evidence is common at homicide trials. Study 2 utilizes the list of evidence generated in Study ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The present research explores how important different trial evidence is to mock jurors’ decisions. Study 1 surveys legal professionals to determine what evidence is common at homicide trials. Study 2 utilizes the list of evidence generated in Study 1 to ask mock jurors to report how important each piece of evidence would be in deciding their verdicts.

The results indicate that DNA is most important to mock jurors, followed by fingerprints, the weapon, video records, crime-scene photos, gunshot residue, bodily secretions, video confession, testimony from a forensic expert, and eyewitness testimony. Study 3 utilizes a different methodology wherein mock jurors were presented with folders labeled with different evidence and asked to choose the piece of evidence they wanted to learn more about first, second, and so on. The results from Study 3 indicate again that DNA evidence is most important to mock jurors, followed by video confession evidence, eyewitness testimony, and fingerprint evidence.

Judicial notebook: What's your type? The power of DNA evidence

The Supreme Court will soon deal with unreliable DNA evidence in McDaniel v. Brown, an appeal of a case in which a defendant was convicted of raping a child.

www.apa.org

Overall, research on jurors' use of statistical information about DNA matches indicates that jurors are more skeptical of the reliability of DNA evidence and less likely to blindly accept DNA evidence as absolute proof of guilt than proponents of the "CSI Effect" might believe. However, DNA is very powerful: When DNA evidence matches the defendant, guilty verdicts are more likely.

Research also indicates that DNA evidence can increase the perceived credibility of other evidence.

 

[Boxer]

I suspect the bushy eyebrows testimony and height and physique of the person DM described will be put into question by this new attorney, along with the experts who she puts on the stand regarding witness testimony.

The witness' state of mind and other conditions will be of interest to the experts who will testify about the credibility of witness testimony. DM is certainly a victim, but in a death penalty case, her testimony will come under intense scrutiny as the stakes are so high.

The defense can try, but MOO her state of intoxication is immatetial.
She gave a statement at the time.
She isn't picking from a line up or saying she can identify the individual.

The defense can and probably will try to conflate identifiying a specific individual as the intruder with a witness providing a description of an intruder that does not exclude the defendant, but hopefully they won't be successful.

 

[10ofRods]

I’ve mentioned this case before in this thread, but with respect to the Snake River in the particular area where BK was after the murders, my guess is the knife likely won’t be found if he dumped it there since Rachael Anderson’s remains were never found despite multiple searches:
Charles Capone Found Guilty of Killing His Estranged Wife Rachael Anderson

Reminder: Bill Thompson was the Latah County PA who secured the “no body” homicide conviction in Rachael’s murder. IIRC, this was the first successful “no body” murder conviction in the entire state of Idaho. I guarantee the defense team will not make the mistake of underestimating any prosecution led by BT!

MOO

Thank you for those facts. Wow. Yeah, I'm not optimistic about something as heavy as a knife being slowly pushed down river to someplace where it might be found (sort of depends on the amount of resources, I guess - but if I were Idaho, I wouldn't spent the resources there).

The ME will establish the style and length of knife. The sheath gives a good approximation of the brand. Further, there are radiological techniques that could further point to the composition of the knife. The knife is not the crucial piece of this. If it were found in the Snake, people would just say that it's the obvious place for anyone (esp. someone from outside the West) to put a knife. There seems to be no indication, however, that Kohberger drove far enough off any main road to reach, say, a lake in more wilderness.

Thank you for the words about BT, as well. I'm pretty confident about this case myself, and think it will be chock full of forensic evidence. All of Idaho must be praying for a conviction in this case. Of someone. I think it will be clearer after the Prelim exactly what kind of case they have, obviously.

IMO.

 

[I'm Nobody]

I’ve mentioned this case before in this thread, but with respect to the Snake River in the particular area where BK was after the murders, my guess is the knife likely won’t be found if he dumped it there since Rachael Anderson’s remains were never found despite multiple searches:
Charles Capone Found Guilty of Killing His Estranged Wife Rachael Anderson

Reminder: Bill Thompson was the Latah County PA who secured the “no body” homicide conviction in Rachael’s murder. IIRC, this was the first successful “no body” murder conviction in the entire state of Idaho. I guarantee the defense team will not make the mistake of underestimating any prosecution led by BT!

MOO

Yes. Thanks.

Team Thompson all the way here. The Capone case had a co-defendant, David Stone, an eyewitness to the murder who filled in missing pieces, corroborated evidence, and testified against Capone in exchange for a lesser charge.

BK killed his eyewitnesses, Kaylee and Xana or Maddie and Ethan, depending on the order of those he killed first in each room. IMO the other person in each room woke so they were an eyewitness to the killing of their friend. If he had seen Dylan, she would not be alive either.

JMO

"At trial, the State relied heavily on Stone’s testimony. Stone testified that he was at Capone’s shop on April 16, 2010. Capone went outside to talk with Anderson. Stone heard a noise and went outside to find Capone strangling Anderson. Anderson was still moving and Stone asked Capone what he was doing. Capone instructed Stone to get a tarp. Stone went inside and searched for a tarp. When he came back out, Anderson was dead. Stone testified that he and Capone wrapped Anderson’s body in the tarp and a chain and drove to Lewiston, where they threw her body into the river from a bridge." There was sufficient evidence to corroborate Stone’s testimony. Stone later told a cellmate they would never find the body in the river because they did not put it in the river.
Good case summary in the denial for Capone's retrial:

Idaho v. Capone

Charges were brought against Charles Capone following the disappearance of Rachael Anderson in April of 2010. He was convicted by jury of felony first degree murder, failure to notify coroner or law enforcement of death, and conspiracy to commit failure to notify coroner or law enforcement of...

law.justia.com

edit: nothing. changed mind.

 

[jjleroche]

It certainly can be. It has some really deep sections, as well. I know that there are dams along its length. Probably very silty on the bottom, though. It was never an easy river to navigate, either (so not many places where one can get into the river or put in a boat - Clarkston is one of those places, though; both Lewis and Clark used the area as a base of operations, having found big sections of the Snake to be unpassable by boat, that area was their best field camp.

If a Ka-Bar knife is found in the Snake River, I would say it has evidentiary value; I think the jury's ears would prick up. Especially as phone records and the video in Albertson's show the defendant to have been right in that area. However, it's a needle in a haystack.

(I think you used your terms properly, btw - its evidentiary value would be lessened by having all relevant biological evidence scraped off in the sandpaper bottom of that river, IMO).

But it would still form a nice link in the circumstantial trail, if found in the Snake. And I do believe it's possible that it's in the Snake and that LE is monitoring the traps at the various dams down river from there (as they did in the Suzanne Morphew case, but in that case, to no avail).

We will likely hear at the PH whether they sent divers into the water near that coffee stand (I bet they did).

IMO.

Thanks 10 of Rods. Very interesting. I hadn't thought of traps.

 

[jepop]

Wasn't his car spotted going through a fast food drive through in one of those towns?

Later that day in early afternoon at Clarkson or something he went shopping and from memory video surveilance from a coffee place picked up the elantra (Kates' coffee cup?). So could not be related to a hypothetical/speculated bar hopping alibi on the night I guess? I don't believe his route in the early AM hours from near Blaine to Pullman took him very close to Clarkson/Lewiston or the Snake River. MOO. After phone reconnecting at 4.50ish near Blaine Id highway 95, he continued south to near Genesee Id, then headed west to ping off Union Town WA then north back towards Pullman. (PCA at pp 13-15). It doesn't appear from PCA that he stopped on this trip, or if he did, not for more than a few minutes, because of time stamps from phone pings, video footage in Pullman at 5.25ish and distance travelled. MOO

ETA "hypothetical/speculated" in text.

 

[Cool Cats]

Does LE drug test witness's to a crime?

No.

Idaho police use breathalyzers and drug tests for suspected impaired driving. Courts can require drug testing as part of the conditions for Bond/Probation/Parole.

A judge isn't going to let the defense falsely accuse a witness of being mentally impaired and prejudice the jury. The Prosecution would immediately object to this. Maybe one time they could ask a witness if they were impaired but when the witness says "no" they can't keep harping on it.

It is far more likely a defense attorney would question how awake a person was and how dark it was in the hallway - were any lights on?

2 Cents

 

[Cool Cats]

Later that day in early afternoon at Clarkson or something he went shopping and from memory video surveilance from a coffee place picked up the elantra (Kates' coffee cup?). So could not be related to a hypothetical/speculated bar hopping alibi on the night I guess? I don't believe his route in the early AM hours from near Blaine to Pullman took him very close to Clarkson/Lewiston or the Snake River. MOO. After phone reconnecting at 4.50ish near Blaine Id highway 95, he continued south to near Genesee Id, then headed west to ping off Union Town WA then north back towards Pullman. (PCA at pp 13-15). It doesn't appear from PCA that he stopped on this trip, or if he did, not for more than a few minutes, because of time stamps from phone pings, video footage in Pullman at 5.25ish and distance travelled. MOO

ETA "hypothetical/speculated" in text.

Good detail as always.

Remember LE removed a shovel from his car?
What if he used that shovel to bury the evidence?

Since his foray to the banks of the Snake River wasn't until the afternoon, he probably stopped out in the boonies and buried/burned everything.

 

[jepop]

To me, there has to be a good reason why he drives down that way two different times within a 24 hour period, both trips after the Elantra is seen leaving 1122 King area.

First time, it was still dark. He might have been unable to find his way easily to the river (doesn't strike as a good navigator/driver, JMO). He drives past a second time after going back to 1122 King.
<RSBMFF>

Since we know that Albertson's has a video record of him in the aisles, they can compute his approximate time of going through the check-out stand pretty closely. If he paid cash for his purchases, that may be a weak link. However, both the store video and the coffee worker have him in Clarkston that Sunday at around noon (but he was only at the house at 9:30? For how long? What was he doing in between?)


I also think he's fairly naïve about the landscape of that part of Idaho/Washington. He may have thought he'd easily find a forest road or something, where he could dump his evidence. He makes that first pass just before dawn, stops a few times, but apparently in towns or near the road. Second time through, we have a missing hour or so for that route. And he has his phone on!

IIRC. IMO. Speculation.

RBBM: My penchant for details is niggling me! It's so easy to get lost in them...so I think per PCA, later that morning BK left Pullman about 9am and was then pinging off King Road towers between about 9.10am and 9.20. Then he pings his way back to his appartment in Pullman, arriving about 9.30am?(about page 15/16 of PCA). So my conjecture is he left for Clarkson some time after 9.30am from his appartment in Pullman. PCA doesn't specify. MOO

The way I read his earlier trip from near Blaine Id (reconnection to network point) to Pullman WA is that he didn't travel close to the Snake River, and that he very likely didn't stop for any length of time on that trip (if at all, and if he did stop, only for a moment) or he would have arrived later than 5.25amish at Johnston Road Pullman (where the first camera picks him up that is congruent with phone pings on return trip). MOO

 

[Deleted member 718]

10,200 photographs

How many of Kohberger? Maybe fingerprints?

 

[jepop]

Also...a few questions...

Was LE's murder window so tight that they neglected to pull video from 2am up until the discovery of the murders that afternoon?

Meaning anything after 5am was ignored?

And when they finally discovered the cellular data pointing to the 9am drive by it was months later. Were all said videos gone by then? Overwritten.

If so...IMO the defense is likely want to know why no video exists from that morning drive by...in the same locations as the previous night where video exists of a car similar to his, in the same place cellular data said he should have been....

MOO but I doubt LE ignored or disposed of video footage they were given that included time stamps later than say 5am. As the investigation unfolded they might need it. I can't remember from early press conferences what time stamps LE asked for at various points. That info is probably on media thread though.

The lack of mention in PCA of footage of a white elantra on Queen street later that morning at 9.10ish makes me think that BK didn't drive directly up Queen Street from King Road in broad daylight. If he (as alleged killer) went there to check out the LE situation he could have parked in car park on Taylor Road and still been able to observe the residence/Street. There might be other vantage points where he could get a view without having to drive on Walenta, King or Queen? MOO

EBM to correct time

 

[jepop]

Good detail as always.

Remember LE removed a shovel from his car?
What if he used that shovel to bury the evidence?

Since his foray to the banks of the Snake River wasn't until the afternoon, he probably stopped out in the boonies and buried/burned everything.

Good points. Often wondered what he was doing between about 5.30pm and 8.30pm on NOv 13th when his phone once again disconnects (for three hours) from the network whilst pinging off Johnston Id towers. LE had reason for sticking that in the PCA I guess. It would have been dark again then and I've hypothesised previously that he might have been cleaning his car out there somewhere using a torch or whatnot. But maybe getting rid of evidence like clothing and weopen or even both! And remember the approx missing 15mins between 4.20am leaving Queen and 4.50am when he reconnects near Blaine? I've thought he could have been cleaning up himself then, but he might also have had a place in mind north of Blaine or east of Moscow to bury/burn evidence (but time is tight for a burning event and to get changed, clean himself up and get hsi head together). MOO

 

[al66pine]

BK. Obsessively Refreshing on the Web?

I've always imagined that he got very little sleep that night. And obsessively refreshed the web to see what/when the crime was discovered....

snipped for focus @schooling
Thanks for your post. Agreeing that's verrry likely.

^^^ Prompts a question (for you or anyone who is familiar w digital evidence) --- would that constant refreshing on any device be reflected in the reports the state has?
Would it depend on the particular device he used? TiA.

 

[jepop]

The defense can try, but MOO her state of intoxication is immatetial.
She gave a statement at the time.
She isn't picking from a line up or saying she can identify the individual.

The defense can and probably will try to conflate identifiying a specific individual as the intruder with a witness providing a description of an intruder that does not exclude the defendant, but hopefully they won't be successful.

Insightful point. MOO

 

[jepop]

BK. Obsessively Refreshing on the Web?

snipped for focus @schooling
Thanks for your post. Agreeing that's verrry likely.

^^^ Prompts a question (for you or anyone who is familiar w digital evidence) --- would that constant refreshing on any device be reflected in the reports the state has?
Would it depend on the particular device he used? TiA.

Could be a case of MWT but i'd say things like constant or repetitive refreshing would be logged by the OSs of most laptops and tablets. Not sure about Android and Apple on phones. MOO

 

[schooling]

BK. Obsessively Refreshing on the Web?

snipped for focus @schooling
Thanks for your post. Agreeing that's verrry likely.

^^^ Prompts a question (for you or anyone who is familiar w digital evidence) --- would that constant refreshing on any device be reflected in the reports the state has?
Would it depend on the particular device he used? TiA.

Tricky question. On SSDs 0s and 1s are almost purely electric and can be destroyed by simply powering your computer off. Unlike a traditional magnetically written HDD where impressions need to be overwritten over and over again before it's truly gone.

HDD technology is still being sold. SSD is still gaining popularity but is typically more expensive. What kind of hard drive did BK have?

What web browser did he use? Does he know that Google saves all of your search history in your account by default unless you explicitly opt out? That's true as long as you use Google.com regardless of what browse you're using. Then there's browser caches that outlive History clearings. Did he know where that lives in Windows? What DNS was he using? Was he using a firewall? Any plugins? The more of those things that you have the easier it is bust you (contrary to popular belief).

So honestly, it's really hard to tell.

If I was a betting man I'd bet that the first few times BK performed these web searches he was super careful. Incognito mode. Cleared his history. Found where cache's might be stored and wiped him.

I bet by early December he got a lot sloppier and lazier. IMO he likely used his personal apartment laptop....and his office laptop...and his home PA laptop.....and his cell phone. Did he check during his trip/drive with his dad? If he somehow managed to not let curiosity get the best of him and/or perfectly wiped everything ID BE HIGHLY SURPRISED.

IMO they'll find something. They always do.

Of course he can make the argument that everyone was following the case, naturally. But not everyone has the added context of their DNA being found at the crime scene. Also, did he type anything into the search box that may have not been publicly released at that time?

MOO