4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #79

[Twistinginthewind]

If the PH would have played out that's when prosecution would have basically showed their cards.

MOO I thinks a really good decision because there is probably to much over whelming information. Maybe they don't want the jury pool tainted by the PH. That way the defence can't say hey we aren't going to get a fair trial because all of this is out there in the public
MOO

Yes, so instead of waiting for the PH, the prosecution went with a "secret" (probably unbeknownst to defense, but they knew it was a possibility and/or a probability) GJ who for primarily privacy reasons, IMO, were presented with the evidence by the prosecution and decided the evidence was sufficient to demonstrate there was probable cause that BK did commit these crimes.

The criminal rules of law state the prosecution must present an overview of their case and supporting evidence and witnesses, and they did to the satisfaction of this jury, which includes 16 people, with a quorum of 12 to indict.

I wonder where they fell, between 12 and 16 voting to indict.

If I were a betting person, and following this case from Day 2, I would bet the odds it was all 16 of them who voted Yes, BK probably did commit these murders.

IMO
ETA reference to GJ jury size and quorum:
"Idaho Criminal Rule 6. Formation of the Grand Jury
(a) Number of Jurors. A grand jury must consist of 16 qualified jurors of the county in which the grand jury sits, but 12 or more members constitute a quorum. A grand jury can deliberate and take action if a quorum is present."
Rule 6. Formation of the Grand Jury | Supreme Court

ETA reference to Prosecutor's Role In GJ proceedings:
"Idaho Criminal Rule 6.1. Prosecuting Attorney’s Role with Grand Jury
(a) Attend Grand Jury Sessions. The prosecuting attorney of the county in which the grand jury is sitting, or one or more deputies, or a special prosecuting attorney may attend all sessions of the grand jury, except during the deliberations of the grand jury after the presentation of evidence.
(b) Powers and Duties. The prosecuting attorney has the power and duty to:
(1) present to the grand jury evidence of any public offense, however, when a prosecutor conducting a grand jury inquiry is personally aware of substantial evidence which directly negates the guilt of the subject of the investigation the prosecutor must present or otherwise disclose that evidence to the grand jury;
(2) at the commencement of a presentation of an investigation to the grand jury, inquire as to whether there are any grounds for disqualification of any grand juror and advise the presiding juror of the possible disqualification of a juror;
(3) list the elements of an offense being investigated by the grand jury, before, during or after the testimony of witnesses;
(4) advise the grand jury as to the standard for probable cause, and tell them that if a person refuses to testify this fact cannot be used against him or her;
(5) issue and have served grand jury subpoenas for witnesses;
(6) present opening statements and/or instruct the grand jury on applicable law; and
(7) prepare an indictment for consideration by or at the request of the grand jury."
I.C.R. 6.1. Formation of the Grand Jury | Supreme Court

 

[U.N. Known]

MOO Saying you saw a specific person and this is them would be a positive identification.

DM provided a description of an intruder before BK was identified by other evidence as a suspect.

Her description of an intruder is not an identification.
Her description of the intruder does not exclude BK.

That was essentially my point with, I'll add, a description generic enough that it does not exclude a lot of men, particularly of college age. Hence, I don't find it enough to make me lean toward or away from guilt. As for the original conversation on witness impairment, as I said previously, if I learned a witness for either side was impaired, I would put little value in anything the person said.

 

[wary]

Oh dear......

So, the grand jury believes that he entered the house intending to commit the felony of murder.

 

[wary]

How are they already getting threats when the witness list was never released? IANAL, but everything I know about GJ tells me they're done in private and no one knows who the witnesses were unless it's released. In this case, it wasn't. So who's being threatened and by whom? BK's in jail. He clearly doesn't have friends. I personally can't see his parents threatening people. So these people who've formed some sort of weird fan club for him? And if so, how do they know who to threaten?

Nothing about this case makes sense and every day gets weirder than the day before.

MOO.

Who’s being threatened? Anyone whose name is known to the public, I suspect.

MOO

 

[Sundog]

The State didn't stall the Defense did. The State was ready to have the Preliminary Hearing and the Defense said they were not ready and pushed it back 6 months.

<snipped for focus>

IIRC, both the defense AND the state were happy to delay the preliminary hearing until June.
In fact, the prosecution suggested an even later date, but the Judge went with the late June date that was requested by the defense.

 

[Cool Cats]

<snipped for focus>

IIRC, both the defense AND the state were happy to delay the preliminary hearing until June.
In fact, the prosecution suggested an even later date, but the Judge went with the late June date that was requested by the defense.

The prosecution had nothing to do with it, it was only up to the defense and the judge if BK could waive his right to a speedy PH.

Of course the prosecution was happy, they were given months and months to gather evidence and serve subpoenas to get ready for a Grand Jury Trial.

The defense lost their gamble. <modsnip> Prosecution comes out better off.

 

[10ofRods]

How are they already getting threats when the witness list was never released? IANAL, but everything I know about GJ tells me they're done in private and no one knows who the witnesses were unless it's released. In this case, it wasn't. So who's being threatened and by whom? BK's in jail. He clearly doesn't have friends. I personally can't see his parents threatening people. So these people who've formed some sort of weird fan club for him? And if so, how do they know who to threaten?

Nothing about this case makes sense and every day gets weirder than the day before.

MOO.

I think the poster to whom you responded was indicating all the witnesses. I suspect that the GJ did not hear all possible witnesses (nor would that have happened at the PH, but the Defense certainly made moves that made it seem as if the two survivors would be called - I would bet many donuts that neither of those women testified to the GJ and that it was all or mostly expert testimony). I don't know Idaho law about who gets to call how many witnesses at Prelim, but I do know that the Judge allotted a short time and wasn't going to hear all possible witnesses. It's not a trial. It is exactly like the PCA, but with a higher bar of evidence. What is missing is that the Defense didn't get to speak or call witnesses (but this is consistent with Idaho - a very conservative, law and order state).

The people (besides DM and BF) that people here on WS have thought might be called as witnesses at an actual trial probably would not be called at a PH - but, it sure was looking like BF was going to be called. Those could include (in addition to the ones already discussed here recently:

DoorDash Driver; Driver who took KG/MM home; Neighbor who saw the open door; the many witnesses who arrived before LE got there <modsnip - RUMORS ARE NOT ALLOWED>; members of the Pullman, WA PD and members of the WSU campus police; many, many investigators and so on. PA LE. Etc. That's all for trial. The evidence bar for a GJ or a PH is not like that at trial.

But the PH would not have called all these. IMO.

To me, the only thing weird about this case is that someone used a knife, in the middle of the night, to kill 4 (apparently near stranger) young people in the prime of their life. The case itself is absolutely not unusual, IMO.

The one sort of unusual thing about this case is...Idaho:

Death penalty state. No NGRI. Uses GJ to indict murderers (that hasn't happened where I live since the late 1950's-early 60's). Low population, rarely changes venues (it has to stay in Idaho; Moscow is the most liberal town in Idaho, so I'll be surprised but not shocked if Defense tries a change of venue - but they may not argue strenuously for just that reason). All of this is normal.

Idaho is different to where I live. But it's not that unusual. in several states to use a GJ in certain murder cases and it can sometimes (often?) help with diminishment of appeals. Here's a relevant case from 1956. It shows the ways in which GJ indictments are held accountable at trial.

IMO.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

How are they already getting threats when the witness list was never released? IANAL, but everything I know about GJ tells me they're done in private and no one knows who the witnesses were unless it's released. In this case, it wasn't. So who's being threatened and by whom? BK's in jail. He clearly doesn't have friends. I personally can't see his parents threatening people. So these people who've formed some sort of weird fan club for him? And if so, how do they know who to threaten?

Nothing about this case makes sense and every day gets weirder than the day before.

MOO.

That was my first thought: Who would threaten whom with what and how would the generic who know who the whoms are?

My second thought: There are a lot of missing pieces in those warrants, motions, and orders...

 

[maconrich]

I completely agree with you and I would be *so* frustrated and sleepless if this were my child who was murdered. I'd also be on every online forum, everywhere, drinking up any information about Kohberger that I could find.

It is not that long in the past that LE *did* communicate more openly with the families of victims. I think where this case turned the corner is with an actual arrest. Up until then, I think if the families were persistent (as SG was), much information was shared, out of compassion.

I agree that their attorney is not the best one for them. And it's almost certain, in my mind, that SG didn't realize he could still speak (and I say that because even here on WS and certainly on other platforms, many, many people thought the same). SG's attorney may have thought the same, we don't know.

I am so sorry to hear about your son. I can't even imagine. You have an inquisitive mind and I don't know how you stood up. I would *have* to have the coroner's report and would go to court over that if I had to (but I believe it was shared with the families when it was completed in this case - if they wanted to see it). The closest I've come to this is the havock wreaked in my own family when my talented young musician cousin died in a single car accident around 1972, and we all waited anxiously for the Coroner's report (and then, my uncle misinterpreted it and had a nervous breakdown - his thinking was completely off the charts for a couple of years).

I agree that this gives the families more time to heal. It also gives the highly mobile population of residents of Moscow, ID to have some turn over, in terms of a potential jury pool. That benefits the defendant and helps the prosecution escape appeals based on "not a fair trial." By the time this comes to trial, it will be much more fair. I think Mr G took the brunt of handling the funerals, viewing the bodies - and he is the one who read the autopsies (I think MM's mom probably delegated that to him or allowed it).

Maybe the parents got access to all the coroner's reports (which would have been standard many years ago). What the parents want is justice and I believe they think the right person has been charged and have been privy to enough information (way more than the PCA - because they saw the full ME reports, at least for their own kids). From what SG said, the manner of death showed a lot about the killer's mind and pattern of crime execution.

Most days, I can't get what he said out of my mind and I haven't forgotten - it's a key piece of this case.

Since I believe the right person is in custody, I can't fault the state (and I think Mr. G thinks the same and has way more information than I do). There is no hurry here, to try him.

The victim family pathway through a terrible crime is fraught with constant re-trauma, IMO. And I wish it weren't so, but it is part of making sure the right person is convicted. I always keep in mind that it's like some family members are reading here.

IMO.

And I agree with you.

No doubt that the families are frustrated, sleepless, beyond depressed and anxious. Possibly reading forums, etc but hopefully they're being selective (due to the nature of some of the things online as well as the fact that things like that intensify all the emotions they're already feeling - even if they're just reading things about BK).

I'm not sure how it works in other states, but here in NC, I had to request the coroner's report once it made it to the state capital. I spoke to the local coroner the day after it happened. He was extremely kind, answered my questions and told me how to get the official report. I think it took about a month for me to get it, and I got the police report and made a trip to the local newspaper in the meantime. I'm sure LE or the local coroner told the families how to get the reports if they wanted them.

Thank you for your condolences. Like your cousin, my son (and only child) was in a violent one vehicle accident (no one else was in the car). I've not been able to go near that road since, and I know that I never will be able to. I'm sorry that happened to your uncle, but I sure can understand it.

That's a good point about there being some turnover in the population of Moscow, and it could help when it comes to a fair trial. I do hope they have the right person, and that no one else was involved. Honestly I'm still waiting for whatever is making it so it doesn't click for me to click. But I do want justice for the victims and their families. And I totally agree that the loved ones will be re-traumatized, perhaps for the rest of their lives. I also keep in mind that family and/or friends could be reading here and thus watch how I word things. I hope that one day their pain will ease - at least as much as it can.

Thank you again

 

[U.N. Known]

I am feeling grammatically triggered by that first document.

"media outlets transcended upon the Vandal community..."

I think "descended upon" is what they were looking for. Media outlets don't transcend, imo. I wish I had a "deep sigh" emoji.

IMO.

Thank you for the chuckle. And here I was thinking how well-written that document is! I'll have to amend that to, it's well-written in comparison to the AP's motion. Their lead attorney's motion was a bit of a mess.

 

[arielilane]

BREAKING: I just confirmed with Latah County court that a grand jury has indicted Bryan Kohberger for the murders of four U of I students. This eliminates need for preliminary hearing, sets path for trial.

Story here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658858167319789568

5.17.2023

Idaho grand jury indicts Kohberger for U of I murders, sets him on path for trial

MOSCOW, ID. - A grand jury in Idaho has indicted the man accused of killing four U of I students in an off-campus home last fall.

www.kxly.com

MOSCOW, ID. - A grand jury in Idaho has indicted the man accused of killing four U of I students in an off-campus home last fall.

Bryan Kohberger has been in the Latah County Jail since early January, charged with killing Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, Kaylee Goncalves and Madison Mogen.


According to court documents, Kohberger has been indicted on four counts of first-degree murder and one count of felony burglary.

In Idaho, prosecutors need to prove there's enough evidence to hold someone over for trial, either through a grand jury indictment or a preliminary hearing.

Kohberger has been on track for a preliminary hearing scheduled for late June, but the Latah County Court clerk confirmed Wednesday the grand jury indictment was handed up this week and makes the preliminary hearing unnecessary.


Steve Goncalves, Kaylee's father, released a statement following news of the indictment. He said, "We are just grateful another step in the process has been completed and we believe this was the best option for the circumstances."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658859420141654016

Note: thankful to the Latah County clerk who confirmed this and was very polite, despite the fact every journalist was calling at the exact same time.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658892014883307520

In a ruling by the magistrate judge in the Kohberger case, she refers to the case against him as a “capital case” meaning a death penalty case. That hasn’t been officially declared yet, though all signs have pointed there. Curious if it was a misstatement or she just revealed it

This ruling denies the press motion to rule quickly on our request to lift/amend the gag order. The matter is set for a scheduling hearing next week, same day as Kohberger’s arraignment.

I realize there are people who think “of COURSE” this is a death penalty case. But, in reality, it doesn’t happen that often. There are only 8 people on Idaho death row. One man has been there since 1983. https://idoc.idaho.gov/content/prisons/death-row

https://twitter.com/MelissaKXLY4

 

[10ofRods]

So, the grand jury believes that he entered the house intending to commit the felony of murder.

Yes, that appears to be what the GJ believes.

Although intent can be formed very quickly, IMO. But the turning off of the phone...

 

[arielilane]

Our @naniigrant is covering updates from Moscow and the Kohberger case today

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658930836086071298

https://twitter.com/MelissaKXLY4

 

[arielilane]

Bryan Kohberger has been indicted by a grand jury in Moscow, Idaho … the multi count indictment includes murder in the first degree - the Latah County District Court has confirmed to
@ABC #BreakingNews #idahohomicides

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658860907123077121

https://twitter.com/KaynaWhitworth

 

[arielilane]

"We are just grateful another step in the process has been completed and we believe this was the best option for the circumstances." - Steve Goncalves - father of Kaylee Goncalves #Idahohomicides @ABC

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658867266472267783

https://twitter.com/KaynaWhitworth

 

[arielilane]

Sources telling us Kohberger will appear in court Monday morning - he will enter a plea - in all likelihood that will be “not guilty” at which point a trial date will be set #idahohomicides #idahomurders

Other local reaction from Moscow - people saying they are happy the surviving roommates were protected (by the decision to present case to Grand Jury)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658885606062325760

https://twitter.com/KaynaWhitworth

 

[arielilane]

Brian Kohberger has been indicted in connection to the murders of four Idaho college students. Steve Goncalves, father of Kaylee, one of the victims, tells our @kanyawhitworth he believes this indictment is the "best option for the circumstances."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658884812466159677

https://twitter.com/KaynaWhitworth

 

[arielilane]

BK has been indicted on four (4) counts of 1st degree murder and one (1) count of burglary. His arraignment is May 22 @9:00 am MT (there is also a scheduling conference over the gag order). Cameras will be allowed; However, live-streaming is not permitted. moo

 

[Twistinginthewind]

How are they already getting threats when the witness list was never released? IANAL, but everything I know about GJ tells me they're done in private and no one knows who the witnesses were unless it's released. In this case, it wasn't. So who's being threatened and by whom? BK's in jail. He clearly doesn't have friends. I personally can't see his parents threatening people. So these people who've formed some sort of weird fan club for him? And if so, how do they know who to threaten?

Nothing about this case makes sense and every day gets weirder than the day before.

MOO.

MOO:

There has been a whole lot of personal identity information which has gotten "out there" on the internet on this case that is available to anonymous people, regarding who all the "involved parties" are on this case, that it could be fairly obvious who the prosecution might call as a witness before the GJ, or if that didn't occur, the PH, or at trial.

The focus on this case from likely thousands if not millions of people from all over the world who are following it on the internet through MSM, SM, and more closely by viewing court documents and following it on platforms like WS and others like Reddit and Facebook, has made it far too easy for the potential key witnesses (and obviously the victims' families, friends, and significant others, as well as drivers and food delivery people, etc.) to be found out, and to be empathized with perhaps, but more often, sadly, to be intimidated, threatened, harassed, ad nauseum, as has been discussed many times in court documents (as reason given to seal or redact) and posted about here many times.

This is why the GJ was the only route available to the prosecution that would keep things in secret (like the actual list of witnesses), to protect not only the identity of people peripherally, but truly involved in this case, from potential harm.

Every sealed and/or redacted court document on this case has cited this ^^^^ as a reason as to why personal information about parties involved in the case, who are therefore likely to have been interviewed or asked to testify as a witness (and to potentially have blame of some kind laid on them, whether it is reasonable and called for or not), needs to be kept from the public.

MOO

 

[Boxer]

That was essentially my point with, I'll add, a description generic enough that it does not exclude a lot of men, particularly of college age. Hence, I don't find it enough to make me lean toward or away from guilt. As for the original conversation on witness impairment, as I said previously, if I learned a witness for either side was impaired, I would put little value in anything the person said.

My opinion is that she saw what she saw.
The intruder was a white man plus a few details, eyebrows prominent, not overweight, not short.
MOO Eliminates lots of men.