4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 72

[10ofRods]

<modsnip - off topic> "Insanity defenses" are to some degree procedural concepts. Insanity or mental deficiency as a defense has constitutional grounds. I have tried cases in Idaho. Have you?

I'd love to ask you about that insanity part. To my way of thinking, even if the law doesn't allow an insanity defense in Idaho, wouldn't a jury be able to notice (under certain circumstances) that the defendant was...insane?

Can it be slipped in, in some manner? Perhaps during sentencing? I have this recurring vision of BK actually taking the stand during the penalty phase, during which the entire jury will probably realize that he's...not quite right. But maybe he'll act completely normal. I would think that his defense attorney would want to allow the jury to see that his thought processes are not...typical.

It's my understanding that the DP has to be recommended by the jury. Is that right?

TIA.

(Above is my speculation of course).

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

I understand

But I followed a story (in my country) of a man who suffered from paranoid delusions - he was sure a member of his family stole money from him (NOT true) so he plotted in secrecy (premeditation) to kill this poor person.
He knew killing is wrong.

Fortunately, his family noted his strange behaviour and he was admitted to mental institution.

But if he had not been caught and killed this unfortunate person - what would happen to him in Idaho?
He was not previously medicated, his delusions started late in life, and he appeared normal.

Well, here’s a 2022 non-paywall truly tragic Idaho case, MOO, that might answer your question.
Man sentenced for 'horrific' murder as defense focuses on mental illness - East Idaho News

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

I'd love to ask you about that insanity part. To my way of thinking, even if the law doesn't allow an insanity defense in Idaho, wouldn't a jury be able to notice (under certain circumstances) that the defendant was...insane?

Can it be slipped in, in some manner? Perhaps during sentencing? I have this recurring vision of BK actually taking the stand during the penalty phase, during which the entire jury will probably realize that he's...not quite right. But maybe he'll act completely normal. I would think that his defense attorney would want to allow the jury to see that his thought processes are not...typical.

It's my understanding that the DP has to be recommended by the jury. Is that right?

TIA.

(Above is my speculation of course).

BBM

First, it has to be requested by the PA (Prosecuting Attorney) in accordance with
Idaho Code 18-4004A

“A sentence of death shall not be imposed unless the prosecuting attorney filed written notice of intent to seek the death penalty with the court and served the notice upon the defendant or his attorney of record no later than sixty (60) days after entry of a plea.”

 

[Glimma0927]

“The Pullman Police Department does not have any documentation regarding whether or not Mr. Kohberger was chosen for the internship position,” the officer stated in an email.

(edited for focus)

I suppose we could assume that if they had offered him the internship, there would be loads of documentation, but if they didn't there would be very little, if any. Perhaps a copy of a letter or email letting him know that they're not going to give him that position, but if it's like most any other job in the US, most companies or agencies would just ghost the applicant if they decide not to hire them.

 

[PrairieWind]

I'd love to ask you about that insanity part. To my way of thinking, even if the law doesn't allow an insanity defense in Idaho, wouldn't a jury be able to notice (under certain circumstances) that the defendant was...insane?

Can it be slipped in, in some manner? Perhaps during sentencing? I have this recurring vision of BK actually taking the stand during the penalty phase, during which the entire jury will probably realize that he's...not quite right. But maybe he'll act completely normal. I would think that his defense attorney would want to allow the jury to see that his thought processes are not...typical.

It's my understanding that the DP has to be recommended by the jury. Is that right?

TIA.

(Above is my speculation of course).

"insanity defenses" allow a defense to assert a claim affirmatively that could negate a conviction. But without a statute allowing that, a defense can still bring this concept forward in several ways to show the defendant wasn't capable of the intent necessary for the crime. Additionally, DP is not available for those that are mentally incompetent, and that is regardless of whether that state has a insanity defense or not. But I don't see BK as mentally incompetent. He may be a psychopath, but that isn't mental illness that would provide a defense. And there is no question he has a high IQ. So I really see the "insanity" question as irrelevant in this case.

To get a death sentence finding, the Prosecutor must first elect to seek a death sentence. The court will set a dead line for him to do that. Then at trial (assuming a guilty verdict on 1st degree murder), at the sentencing phase, testimony will be presented for and against the DP. Then the jury must select death or life. There are/were some states that allowed a judge to over-ride, but I'm not sure of the status of those, I think those have been struck down.

 

[10ofRods]

"insanity defenses" allow a defense to assert a claim affirmatively that could negate a conviction. But without a statute allowing that, a defense can still bring this concept forward in several ways to show the defendant wasn't capable of the intent necessary for the crime. Additionally, DP is not available for those that are mentally incompetent, and that is regardless of whether that state has a insanity defense or not. But I don't see BK as mentally incompetent. He may be a psychopath, but that isn't mental illness that would provide a defense. And there is no question he has a high IQ. So I really see the "insanity" question as irrelevant in this case.

To get a death sentence finding, the Prosecutor must first elect to seek a death sentence. The court will set a dead line for him to do that. Then at trial (assuming a guilty verdict on 1st degree murder), at the sentencing phase, testimony will be presented for and against the DP. Then the jury must select death or life. There are/were some states that allowed a judge to over-ride, but I'm not sure of the status of those, I think those have been struck down.

Thank you so much. I do think he has a thought disorder and probably several other mental health comorbidities, but he's obviously a competent adult who managed to move across country, drive a car, pay his bills, go to school, get his hair cut, attend to his health needs, etc.

So if Bryan were to take a plea (plead guilty to First Degree Homicide - four of them), would there be a jury for the sentencing phase? I assume there would be (unless he chose a judge)?

I think BK would be the last person to want to assert that he's incompetent, I was just wondering if putting him on the stand during the penalty phase might shake the jury a little bit. He certainly won't come across as normal, I'd wager. But grandiosity is likely not a trait that is going to make a jury soften - although if it's bad enough, I guess it could help him.

I keep wondering how he's actually doing in jail. He had a lot of structural supports in his prior life, now he has to adapt to an entirely new situation (without midnight runs or writing copious amounts on his computer/the internet).

 

[Deleted member 718]

Case Summary (Updated 02/13/23)

I don't see anything new on the summary yet.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/Summary/Case-Summary-Kohberger-021323.pdf

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

I think BK would be the last person to want to assert that he's incompetent, I was just wondering if putting him on the stand during the penalty phase might shake the jury a little bit. He certainly won't come across as normal, I'd wager. But grandiosity is likely not a trait that is going to make a jury soften - although if it's bad enough, I guess it could help him.

I keep wondering how he's actually doing in jail. He had a lot of structural supports in his prior life, now he has to adapt to an entirely new situation (without midnight runs or writing copious amounts on his computer/the internet).

SFFBM

I legit ponder that each time I drive by the Courthouse/Jail, which is several times a week.

My gut tells me he’s doing OK in the small jail staffed by decent & humane (MOO) LE. I don’t know how he’ll adjust to being in a large prison when the time comes.

MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

Thank you so much. I do think he has a thought disorder and probably several other mental health comorbidities, but he's obviously a competent adult who managed to move across country, drive a car, pay his bills, go to school, get his hair cut, attend to his health needs, etc.

So if Bryan were to take a plea (plead guilty to First Degree Homicide - four of them), would there be a jury for the sentencing phase? I assume there would be (unless he chose a judge)?

I think BK would be the last person to want to assert that he's incompetent, I was just wondering if putting him on the stand during the penalty phase might shake the jury a little bit. He certainly won't come across as normal, I'd wager. But grandiosity is likely not a trait that is going to make a jury soften - although if it's bad enough, I guess it could help him.

I keep wondering how he's actually doing in jail. He had a lot of structural supports in his prior life, now he has to adapt to an entirely new situation (without midnight runs or writing copious amounts on his computer/the internet).

If BK takes a plea then there will not be a jury seated. I 100% believe that Prosecutors would only accept a guilty plea to the 4 murders and the plea deal will have the recommended sentence in it (LWOP) and the judge has to agree to it because only the judge gives the sentence.

The only plea I see is BK pleading guilty to the 4 murders in exchange to get the DP dropped, if he is charged with the DP.

If he is not charged with the DP then he has nothing to lose by going to trial. No real reason to do a plea because he wouldn't gain anything from a plea. No way would prosecutors take anything less than BK pleading guilty to 4 aggravated murders and getting LWOP.

All BK would gain is not going through a trial.

 

[10ofRods]

If BK takes a plea then there will not be a jury seated. I 100% believe that Prosecutors would only accept a guilty plea to the 4 murders and the plea deal will have the recommended sentence in it (LWOP) and the judge has to agree to it because only the judge gives the sentence.

The only plea I see is BK pleading guilty to the 4 murders in exchange to get the DP dropped, if he is charged with the DP.

If he is not charged with the DP then he has nothing to lose by going to trial. No real reason to do a plea because he wouldn't gain anything from a plea. No way would prosecutors take anything less than BK pleading guilty to 4 aggravated murders and getting LWOP.

All BK would gain is not going through a trial.

But I thought a jury has to weigh in on DP cases?

First there was the Florida case, and then this Delaware case:

Can only a jury impose the death penalty? | Constitution Center

Reading a Supreme Court ruling of last January in a widely expansive way, a divided Delaware Supreme Court on Tuesday struck down that state’s death penalty law. It ruled that the Supreme Court’s most recent ruling on death sentencing requires that the ultimate choice of life or death can only...

constitutioncenter.org

If Idaho permits it, won't it go to the Supreme Court?

I understand that if he plea bargains, he can hope the judge takes the DP off the table - but what if the prosecution wants to seek it?

 

[Deleted member 718]

FWIW:

Bryan Kohberger Murder Case: Eyewitness Thought Suspect and Victims Were Partying, Yelled About Noise - Report

A source who had spoken to the eyewitness told NewsNation host Ashleigh Banfield that the eyewitness, who was one of the two surviving roommates living in the home, even yelled at her roommates to keep the noise down.

www.insideedition.com

February 13, 2023

A source who had spoken to the eyewitness told NewsNation host Ashleigh Banfield that the eyewitness, who was one of the two surviving roommates living in the home, even yelled at her roommates to keep the noise down.

She allegedly yelled “calm down, you’re being loud!” and “I’m trying to sleep!” after opening her door, the source told the network.

The source also said that when the eyewitness opened the bedroom door and saw a mystery man, who authorities now believe was Kohberger, she did nothing because she assumed he had been a guest of her roommates.

Eight hours later, police were called to the house, where they discovered the bodies of Madison Mogen, 21; Kaylee Goncalves, 21; Xana Kernodle, 20; and Ethan Chapin, 20.

The details in the new report are notably different than the details shared in the probable cause affidavit last month.

That probable cause affidavit also differed from the initial account the Moscow Police Department provided to the public in the wake of the murders on Nov. 13.

 

[Cool Cats]

SFFBM

I legit ponder that each time I drive by the Courthouse/Jail, which is several times a week.

My gut tells me he’s doing OK in the small jail staffed by decent & humane (MOO) LE. I don’t know how he’ll adjust to being in a large prison when the time comes.

MOO

According to the Idaho Statesman, BK is being housed in a cell by himself.

If BK ends up in prison on death row, he will not be housed in general population, he most likely will be alone in a cell. Death row inmates are isolated from general population. Usually single cells, or maybe one roommate at most, is pretty standard.

If BK gets LWOP and isn't on death row, I have to agree with the prison expert who predicts that BK would be locked up alone in protective custody, away from general population.

It would be an isolated life for him for his own protection because other inmates might want to kill him for "street cred" according to the prison expert consultant who was also an inmate.

So the guy who is socially awkward and unsuccessful in relationships and as a TA, would ironically be isolated from other people for likely many years to come.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

(edited for focus)

I suppose we could assume that if they had offered him the internship, there would be loads of documentation, but if they didn't there would be very little, if any. Perhaps a copy of a letter or email letting him know that they're not going to give him that position, but if it's like most any other job in the US, most companies or agencies would just ghost the applicant if they decide not to hire them.

I'm definitely not part of HR, but in my line of work, I've been on our version of hiring committees. For us, we document why a candidate wouldn't get the nod. It's important at my work because if we're hit with a discrimination suit or if the higher ups want answers on why so and so wasn't hired, we have a paper trail of red flag(s). If it's just that we liked another candidate better, then we may put very little, but we follow a formula to hire so everything still has to be documented.

If there were red flags as part of BK's application, I feel like that should be documented. So I wonder if they just preferred other candidates over him as opposed to a reason for not hiring him. Just a guess.

MOO.

 

[PrairieWind]

But I thought a jury has to weigh in on DP cases?

First there was the Florida case, and then this Delaware case:

Can only a jury impose the death penalty? | Constitution Center

Reading a Supreme Court ruling of last January in a widely expansive way, a divided Delaware Supreme Court on Tuesday struck down that state’s death penalty law. It ruled that the Supreme Court’s most recent ruling on death sentencing requires that the ultimate choice of life or death can only...

constitutioncenter.org

If Idaho permits it, won't it go to the Supreme Court?

I understand that if he plea bargains, he can hope the judge takes the DP off the table - but what if the prosecution wants to seek it?

Cool cats is mostly correct on this. I think BK could agree to plead guilty in exchange for the prosecution taking the DP off the table. In which case, if he pleads to 1st degree murder, his sentence is LWOP, there would be no trial, no jury. Now, he COULD just plead guilty without a plea deal, like Nikolas Cruz in the Parkland killings. Then there would be a trial just on the penalty phase with a jury deciding on death or life. That was pretty rare, and I just don't see that happening here.

 

[PrairieWind]

But I thought a jury has to weigh in on DP cases?

First there was the Florida case, and then this Delaware case:

Can only a jury impose the death penalty? | Constitution Center

Reading a Supreme Court ruling of last January in a widely expansive way, a divided Delaware Supreme Court on Tuesday struck down that state’s death penalty law. It ruled that the Supreme Court’s most recent ruling on death sentencing requires that the ultimate choice of life or death can only...

constitutioncenter.org

If Idaho permits it, won't it go to the Supreme Court?

I understand that if he plea bargains, he can hope the judge takes the DP off the table - but what if the prosecution wants to seek it?

Cool cats is mostly correct on this. I think BK could agree to plead guilty in exchange for the prosecution taking the DP off the table. In which case, if he pleads to 1st degree murder, his sentence is LWOP, there would be no trial, no jury. Now, he COULD just plead guilty without a plea deal, like Nikolas Cruz in the Parkland killings. Then there would be a trial just on the penalty phase with a jury deciding on death or life. That was pretty rare, and I just don't see that happening here.

 

[schooling]

FWIW:

Bryan Kohberger Murder Case: Eyewitness Thought Suspect and Victims Were Partying, Yelled About Noise - Report

A source who had spoken to the eyewitness told NewsNation host Ashleigh Banfield that the eyewitness, who was one of the two surviving roommates living in the home, even yelled at her roommates to keep the noise down.

www.insideedition.com

February 13, 2023

A source who had spoken to the eyewitness told NewsNation host Ashleigh Banfield that the eyewitness, who was one of the two surviving roommates living in the home, even yelled at her roommates to keep the noise down.

She allegedly yelled “calm down, you’re being loud!” and “I’m trying to sleep!” after opening her door, the source told the network.

The source also said that when the eyewitness opened the bedroom door and saw a mystery man, who authorities now believe was Kohberger, she did nothing because she assumed he had been a guest of her roommates.

Eight hours later, police were called to the house, where they discovered the bodies of Madison Mogen, 21; Kaylee Goncalves, 21; Xana Kernodle, 20; and Ethan Chapin, 20.

The details in the new report are notably different than the details shared in the probable cause affidavit last month.

That probable cause affidavit also differed from the initial account the Moscow Police Department provided to the public in the wake of the murders on Nov. 13.

This kind of stuff has been floating around since the day of the murder. So it makes me wonder if NewsNation has an actual source or if they are just digging through old Reddit comments between 11/13 - 11/21 (and calling it a source). Sort of like the DailyMail story on Xana's sister in law. Of course the DailyMail was completely transparent about where they got their information from.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

"insanity defenses" allow a defense to assert a claim affirmatively that could negate a conviction. But without a statute allowing that, a defense can still bring this concept forward in several ways to show the defendant wasn't capable of the intent necessary for the crime. Additionally, DP is not available for those that are mentally incompetent, and that is regardless of whether that state has a insanity defense or not. But I don't see BK as mentally incompetent. He may be a psychopath, but that isn't mental illness that would provide a defense. And there is no question he has a high IQ. So I really see the "insanity" question as irrelevant in this case.

To get a death sentence finding, the Prosecutor must first elect to seek a death sentence. The court will set a dead line for him to do that. Then at trial (assuming a guilty verdict on 1st degree murder), at the sentencing phase, testimony will be presented for and against the DP. Then the jury must select death or life. There are/were some states that allowed a judge to over-ride, but I'm not sure of the status of those, I think those have been struck down.

Thank you. I agree he has no mental illness to pin this on. Psychopathic behavior doesn't get an insanity plea generally as these people can tell the difference between right and wrong (unless there's an underlying thought disorder of course). IMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

But I thought a jury has to weigh in on DP cases?

First there was the Florida case, and then this Delaware case:

Can only a jury impose the death penalty? | Constitution Center

Reading a Supreme Court ruling of last January in a widely expansive way, a divided Delaware Supreme Court on Tuesday struck down that state’s death penalty law. It ruled that the Supreme Court’s most recent ruling on death sentencing requires that the ultimate choice of life or death can only...

constitutioncenter.org

If Idaho permits it, won't it go to the Supreme Court?

I understand that if he plea bargains, he can hope the judge takes the DP off the table - but what if the prosecution wants to seek it?

The way plea deals work in death penalty murder cases 99% of the time, is the defendant pleads guilty to the murder or murders, called aggravated murders, and then the prosecution drops the death penalty in exchange for LWOP.

Plea deals are considered an exchange. You plead guilty in exchange for getting the DP dropped, or in other cases, to get some charges dropped or get a lesser charge or lesser sentence.

When you do a plea deal you lose your right to appeal because you are pleading guilty.

A death penalty attorney's main job is to keep their client off of death row. When the evidence is overwhelming against their client they will advise their client of the possibility of being convicted.

If convicted, the DP defendant then must go through a penalty phase trial where the jury decides between a life sentence or a death sentence.

The first trial is the guilt phase trial where the jury decides to convict or acquit.

If BK pleads guilty to avoid the DP there is no jury for that. The judge will then sentence him at a later hearing.

Even if BK wants to plead guilty to avoid the DP, the prosecution does not have to accept this. The prosecution can say no, we are taking you to trial, the families want the DP.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

The way plea deals work in death penalty murder cases 99% of the time, is the defendant pleads guilty to the murder or murders, called aggravated murders, and then the prosecution drops the death penalty in exchange for LWOP.

A death penalty attorney's main job is to keep their client off of death row. When the evidence is overwhelming against their client they will advise their client of the possibility of being convicted.

If convicted, the defendant then must go through a penalty phase trial where the jury decides between a life sentence or a death sentence.

The first trial is the guilt phase trial where the jury decides to convict or acquit.

When you do a plea deal you lose your right to appeal because you are pleading guilty.

If BK pleads guilty to avoid the DP there is no jury for that. The judge will then sentence him at a later hearing.

Even if BK wants to plead guilty to avoid the DP, the prosecution does not have to accept this. The prosecution can say no, we are taking you to trial, the families want the DP.

As far as I know, only one family has been on the record re: wanting the death penalty. Do we know what the other families want?

 

[Cool Cats]

As far as I know, only one family has been on the record re: wanting the death penalty. Do we know what the other families want?

I don't know what the 3 other families want. I do not know if the prosecution team will consider what they want as far as charging BK with the DP. I assume they take the family's feelings into account.

I do know that when a defendant is indicted under the death penalty, but wants to plead guilty to avoid the DP, that the families are immediately called to a meeting to discus it.

They are told that the defendant wants to plead guilty to murdering their loved one in exchange for the DP being dropped. The family or families then tell the prosecution team how they feel about that.